Heresy 32

[Melifeather]

The things that Bran see while unconscious could have implications for what happens when warging, because I believe everything he saw was currently happening, so when he sees Jon sleeping in his bed as all warmth left him, that could be referring to his dreaming/warging into Ghost.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

in his bed as all warmth left him, that could be referring to his dreaming/warging into Ghost.

That's interesting. You probably had this in mind when you said it but Jon doesn't feel that last strike, only cold. Evidence that he is actually slipping into ghost and abandoning his own broken body?

[Tyryan Lannister]

Before we do put the topic to rest, just a little possible connection between this "Stone Giant" talk and Heresy... maybe he wasn't seeing threats to himself/the Starks, but the threats to Lady and Nymeria's lives. Let's face it, if the Hound, Jaime, or Ser Illyn had found Nymeria before Arya had, they would have killed her on the spot. And while, yes, Ned was the one who ended up taking Lady's life, he did it for two reasons: one, because of the Northern way (he who gives punishment should carry out said punishment) which Robert was having no part in, and, two, because he did not want Lady to be butchered by... the Hound, Jaime, or Ser Illyn.

That part of the dream was possibly Bran, through his connection to Summer and the direwolves' connection to each other, seeing into the immediate threats to Lady's life, memory, and honor.

Tied it into Heresy a little bit, and now let's put the topic to rest.

[Uncat]

The other thing that troubles me about the Wall is how little we're told about the building of it. OK there are legends it was built by Bran the Builder, and legends that it was built by giants, but that's it, zilch, nada, blank. We're told by Maester Luwin of how the First Men came to Westeros and how they fought and eventually made peace with the Children, we're told of the Long Night and we're told of the forging of the Seven Kingdoms and of the coming of the Andals and so on. But nary a word about the Wall save those legends. There's an underlying assumption it was built at the end of the Long Night, but we don't know - yet if it was built by Men or even built by Giants enslaved by men its still an absolutely massive undertaking. A Westeros supposedly devasted by the Long Night and the White Mob from up north can suddenly find the hundreds of thousands of men required to build it, in the middle of winter, losing tens of thousands in the process, and yet nobody says anything about it?

I just revisited Old Nan's tale of how the WHite Walker came for the first time (George made a point out if before, that from all the sources on ancient times, Old Nan is the most reliable, so it is always worth a read)

Anyhow, it made me remeber a post I wrote about it a long time ago. I promise to not make a habit out of reposting old stuff, but then this very topic (who build the Wall, what is the connection between, CotF, Starks and WW is back on e table. So I want to throw this idea to the wolfs once again (instead of desguising it as new post):

BC, thank you for quoting Old Nan's tale (the one of the Last Hero). It made me notice something. The scenario she discribes concerning the CotF is a clear post war, post pact scenario:  

- Hundred Kingdoms on lands taken from the CotF

- Only a few CotF left, 

- hidden in their hills. 

- The quest is, to find them. 

And that is the main reason, why the LH has hopes to get help from the CotF: He is about to invoke the old and almost forgotten pact.

Now, we once discussed in Heresy three or four, how the Wall might have been an armistice line, like the 38 Parallel.

But while the theory of an armistice patroulled by House Stark has its flaws as long as it concerned the pact between CotF an First Man, it makes a lot of sense, when we assume a second pact. This pact would have happened between Bran, the Last Hero and the WW. What the Children did to help the LH was, to mediate this pact.

The agreement had certain specifics:

First of all: The Last Hero gave up on all the kingdoms drowned in snow and ice north of a certain line. 

Second: He conceded certain rituals of child sacrifice to be made at a certain point of the new borderline (later on know as the Black Gate)

Third: It was specified, that no man or only such man that accept the White Walkers as rulers should settle beyond that line. 

The Last Hero vouched for this pact, because it garantieed the survival of men in the north and because, there was someting in it for him. He took it upon himself, to see that all of this was fulfilled. So in a way, he did build the Wall, too. Not the actual ice Wall but he established the border which the Wall then marked. And he held that border, "his" Wall against anyone who would want to cross it. He also made certain, that the sacrifices were made and that man would hold true to this pact.

In doing all of this, he became the first King of Winter. Because he not only ruled in the North, but to those in the North it would apear as if he ruled Winter itself.

Meanwhile the White Walkers retreated to their Fearyland. After all, the lands around the Wall are not eternaly cold, as we know from the maps. But befor they left they raised the Wall. Not as protection from man but as garden wall, a warning telling every men to butt the hell out of here. 

Peace ensued. Only during Winter, some rangers would show up now and then. They would check, if man stayed true to the pact and if there was a Stark in Winterfell to keep it.

It may even have been, what the White Walker said to Royce: "Hey, bro, is you boss, The Stark, around?" 

And for the same reason they let Will go. They wanted him to bring the news of their return south, so a Stark would finaly show up. It's what the bad guys really love to do in books and movies, after all: Kill everyone to send a message and let one survivor run to bring that message home.

Oh, and they were obviously pissed with the Starks, as they found their lands infested with humans. That was the message.

Don't know if there is any truth in this, but at least the idea of a WW/Stark pact and the WW raising the Wall still make a lot of sense for me.

Now go wild :D

[Black Crow]

The things that Bran see while unconscious could have implications for what happens when warging, because I believe everything he saw was currently happening, so when he sees Jon sleeping in his bed as all warmth left him, that could be referring to his dreaming/warging into Ghost.

I doubt it, the point is that the Bran chapter is followed by a Jon one in which he (Jon) is revealed to be sleeping alone in a room in Hardin's Tower, and musing that he has been cold for so long that soon he will forget all warmth:

Bran: He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.

Jon: The chill was always with him here. In a few years, he would forget what it felt like to be warm.

Now that being said, the beauty of Bran's vision is that it is indeed a real time picture of what is happening at that moment in time, but it is also foreshadowing what is to come.

[Melifeather]

Black Crow, sometimes I feel as if, just because I said something, you want to be contrary. Is this like when the boys at the playground picked on me? I know they liked me when they pulled my hair! :kiss:

[Black Crow]

I just revisited Old Nan's tale of how the WHite Walker came for the first time (George made a point out if before, that from all the sources on ancient times, Old Nan is the most reliable, so it is always worth a read)

Gods Old and New! Was it really as long ago as Heresy 3 or 4 that we first discussed the truce line idea?

Anyway, since you mention it, somebody questioned this assertion that GRRM had said something about Old Nan's stories being the only true history of Westeros or words to that effect, but nobody could find the actual quote. Any ideas?

[Black Crow]

Black Crow, sometimes I feel as if, just because I said something, you want to be contrary. Is this like when the boys at the playground picked on me? I know they liked me when they pulled my hair! :kiss:

You say the sweetest things, but no this is an old argument from way back in the mists of time. :fencing:

[Black Crow]

And now a new one. With reference to the exchange UnCat and I have been having about the Wall and the lack of anything solid about who really built it, when and and how, I'm beginning to wonder whether it has always been there and whether its always been the boundary of the Realm of Ice or the Land of Always Winter, and that the Long Night wasn't just a cold season but Winter breaking out beyond the Wall.

OK its a bit radical I know, but it still bothers me that we know nothing about how the Long Night Ended, about the Battle for the Dawn or about the building of the Wall except through fragmentary legends told by people who clearly knew nothing.

[Uncat]

Oh my, the easiest explanation of all. It would explain so much. Even the behaviour of the Wall as if it was alive.

It is like the point of the scale and marks the ideal border between the realm, while ice and fire move forth and back in their dance. We see a land by the end of an fire dominated era, with permafrost beginning far behind the Wall. So it is time to get things back in balance...

Yeah, there is so much in it. The only thing the does not match is the song o the last giant, in wich the giant mourns for a pre-Wall state of affairs. But then this is just a song sung by man.

[Uncat]

Btw, this thing from Georg... no clue. But I feel like I picked it up from you, BC ;)

[Melifeather]

Well, you all should know by now my opinion as to who built the Wall: an allied force of Andals and rebel Stark/Northern Houses that usurp a Lord Stark of Winterfell. A theory seemingly supported by the Ygritte video. Here's that link again:

[alienarea]

I just revisited Old Nan's tale of how the WHite Walker came for the first time (George made a point out if before, that from all the sources on ancient times, Old Nan is the most reliable, so it is always worth a read)

Anyhow, it made me remeber a post I wrote about it a long time ago. I promise to not make a habit out of reposting old stuff, but then this very topic (who build the Wall, what is the connection between, CotF, Starks and WW is back on e table. So I want to throw this idea to the wolfs once again (instead of desguising it as new post):

BC, thank you for quoting Old Nan's tale (the one of the Last Hero). It made me notice something. The scenario she discribes concerning the CotF is a clear post war, post pact scenario:  

- Hundred Kingdoms on lands taken from the CotF

- Only a few CotF left, 

- hidden in their hills. 

- The quest is, to find them. 

And that is the main reason, why the LH has hopes to get help from the CotF: He is about to invoke the old and almost forgotten pact.

Now, we once discussed in Heresy three or four, how the Wall might have been an armistice line, like the 38 Parallel.

But while the theory of an armistice patroulled by House Stark has its flaws as long as it concerned the pact between CotF an First Man, it makes a lot of sense, when we assume a second pact. This pact would have happened between Bran, the Last Hero and the WW. What the Children did to help the LH was, to mediate this pact.

The agreement had certain specifics:

First of all: The Last Hero gave up on all the kingdoms drowned in snow and ice north of a certain line. 

Second: He conceded certain rituals of child sacrifice to be made at a certain point of the new borderline (later on know as the Black Gate)

Third: It was specified, that no man or only such man that accept the White Walkers as rulers should settle beyond that line. 

The Last Hero vouched for this pact, because it garantieed the survival of men in the north and because, there was someting in it for him. He took it upon himself, to see that all of this was fulfilled. So in a way, he did build the Wall, too. Not the actual ice Wall but he established the border which the Wall then marked. And he held that border, "his" Wall against anyone who would want to cross it. He also made certain, that the sacrifices were made and that man would hold true to this pact.

In doing all of this, he became the first King of Winter. Because he not only ruled in the North, but to those in the North it would apear as if he ruled Winter itself.

Meanwhile the White Walkers retreated to their Fearyland. After all, the lands around the Wall are not eternaly cold, as we know from the maps. But befor they left they raised the Wall. Not as protection from man but as garden wall, a warning telling every men to butt the hell out of here. 

Peace ensued. Only during Winter, some rangers would show up now and then. They would check, if man stayed true to the pact and if there was a Stark in Winterfell to keep it.

It may even have been, what the White Walker said to Royce: "Hey, bro, is you boss, The Stark, around?" 

And for the same reason they let Will go. They wanted him to bring the news of their return south, so a Stark would finaly show up. It's what the bad guys really love to do in books and movies, after all: Kill everyone to send a message and let one survivor run to bring that message home.

Oh, and they were obviously pissed with the Starks, as they found their lands infested with humans. That was the message.

Don't know if there is any truth in this, but at least the idea of a WW/Stark pact and the WW raising the Wall still make a lot of sense for me.

Now go wild :D

Sold.

And Benjen hasn't showed up because he is in a reeducation camp.

[Black Crow]

Well, you all should know by now my opinion as to who built the Wall: an allied force of Andals and rebel Stark/Northern Houses that usurp a Lord Stark of Winterfell. A theory seemingly supported by the Ygritte video. Here's that link again:

Dang, I'm going to have to contradict you again. :box:

In the first place the Ygritte bit completely contradicts her own song (canon) of the Mountain Giant in the book, and more importantly as we've been discussing, the big problem with the Wall is the lack of any knowledge of how it was built. The Andals have only been around for more than 2,000 years - GRRM confirmed they were moving west away from the Valyrians and only appear to have reached an accomodation (for want of a better term) with the North about 1,000 years ago. Still a long time in real terms, but in terms of both memory and written records the building of the Wall no more that 1,000 years ago is impossible to conceal, especially given the resources that must have gone into it and, if humans were involved, the terrible death toll. And no, you don't cover up something that big.

[Tyryan Lannister]

A little OT, but on the topic of the slave-giants from the video, this really shouldn't be that much of a surprise as something that did occur (or at least something involving the enslavement of giants) considering that the symbol of House Umber is a giant with chains... and the image used on the wiki http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Umber makes it look like it's a captive giant breaking free from his chains

food for thought

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Redacted.

[Black Crow]

Sounds painful, is it anything to do with recanting and that re-education camp mentioned by Alien Area?

[Melifeather]

Dang, I'm going to have to contradict you again. :box:

In the first place the Ygritte bit completely contradicts her own song (canon) of the Mountain Giant in the book, and more importantly as we've been discussing, the big problem with the Wall is the lack of any knowledge of how it was built. The Andals have only been around for more than 2,000 years - GRRM confirmed they were moving west away from the Valyrians and only appear to have reached an accomodation (for want of a better term) with the North about 1,000 years ago. Still a long time in real terms, but in terms of both memory and written records the building of the Wall no more that 1,000 years ago is impossible to conceal, especially given the resources that must have gone into it and, if humans were involved, the terrible death toll. And no, you don't cover up something that big.

I don't see how the song contradicts the theory. :dunno:

I would be wary of saying "impossible"....you could be eating crow when the next book comes out. (pun totally intended) :cool4:

[Uncat]

Dang, I'm going to have to contradict you again. :box:

In the first place the Ygritte bit completely contradicts her own song (canon) of the Mountain Giant in the book, and more importantly as we've been discussing, the big problem with the Wall is the lack of any knowledge of how it was built. The Andals have only been around for more than 2,000 years - GRRM confirmed they were moving west away from the Valyrians and only appear to have reached an accomodation (for want of a better term) with the North about 1,000 years ago. Still a long time in real terms, but in terms of both memory and written records the building of the Wall no more that 1,000 years ago is impossible to conceal, especially given the resources that must have gone into it and, if humans were involved, the terrible death toll. And no, you don't cover up something that big.

I'd go with Old Nan here. She says, it was before the Andals came and long before the women left their cities at the Rhyonne (i.e. Nymeria).

BC, btw, I seem to remeber, that we started to realize at some point, that Old Nan's tale held more truth then we thought. And then some one on this thread came up with the idea that this is just I nice writing idea - to put the best pieces in the mounth of that source wich seems to be the least reliable.

And just when we were at that point, someone came up with that GRRM bit which aparently came from some interview.

[Melifeather]

I'd go with Old Nan here. She says, it was before the Andals came and long before the women left their cities at the Rhyonne (i.e. Nymeria).

BC, btw, I seem to remeber, that we started to realize at some point, that Old Nan's tale held more truth then we thought. And then some one on this thread came up with the idea that this is just I nice writing idea - to put the best pieces in the mounth of that source wich seems to be the least reliable.

And just when we were at that point, someone came up with that GRRM bit which aparently came from some interview.

I'm going to get reaquainted with Old Nan stories, but going on memory only, I don't recall her specifically saying that the Wall preceded the Andal invasion. She doesn't even get to finish the story of the Last Hero.