Heresy 32

[Uncat]

Sold.

And Benjen hasn't showed up because he is in a reeducation camp.

Yepp, being cooked and fried

[Uncat]

Uupsi, got me there. Yes, she does not mention the Wall. The tale only "dates" the Long Night. :(

[Black Crow]

I'd go with Old Nan here. She says, it was before the Andals came and long before the women left their cities at the Rhyonne (i.e. Nymeria).

We don't even have that.(ETA: beat me to it) The bit you mention is her talking about the Long Night:

Old Nan nodded. “In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,” she said as her needles went click click click. “They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children.”

Her voice had dropped very low, almost to a whisper, and Bran found himself leaning forward to listen.

“Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds-”

[Black Crow]

OK, I’ve been right through Old Nan’s stories. She mentions the Wall a few times, but as something that’s there. This one’s interesting:

The Wall could look like stone, all grey and pitted, but then the clouds would break and the sun would hit it differently, and all at once it would transform, and stand there white and blue and glittering. It was the end of the world, Old Nan always said. On the other side were monsters and giants and ghouls, but they could not pass so long as the Wall stood strong.

However, none of her stories tell anything about when and how the Wall was built, except for this little exchange just before she tells of the Long Night:

“I could tell you the story about Brandon the Builder,” Old Nan said. “That was always your favorite.”

Thousands and thousands of years ago, Brandon the Builder had raised Winterfell, and some said the Wall. Bran knew the story, but it had never been his favorite.

Now what’s interesting here is that the story obviously doesn’t involve the building of the Wall.

[Melifeather]

I wish we had a complete Old Nan tale about the Rat Cook, because he served the Andal king his prince-and-bacon-pie. And again it was the Nightfort where King Sherrit (?what king is this?) had called down his curse on the Andals of old. These are stories I would like more of!

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

“I could tell you the story about Brandon the Builder,” Old Nan said. “That was always your favorite.”

Thousands and thousands of years ago, Brandon the Builder had raised Winterfell, and some said the Wall. Bran knew the story, but it had never been his favorite.

Now what’s interesting here is that the story obviously doesn’t involve the building of the Wall.

That's not what it says at all in my opinion. You'll notice the 'some said the wall' part is Bran's inner thoughts. It says there's no agreement on whether Brandon built the wall. Perhaps Nan is one of those people that believes he did and tells the story thusly :P

[Black Crow]

Hmmm... we'll have to agree to differ. The way I read it she was offering to tell him a story about Bran the Builder, which for all we know could have been how he milked Goody Grumpety's cow, but was more likely his life and times and how he build Winterfell (with giants). Its the building of Winterfell that Bran associates him with but is acknowledging others have linked him to the Wall.

[Black Crow]

And so to bed after 167 posts in little more than 48 hours.

[Uncat]

The Wall.

It is 700 feet (about 200 meters) high. It seems to be more then 200 feet thick at his base. If you do the math, you will see, that it holds about five cubic kilometres (or five so six billion tons) of water. Give or take a billion.

The Wall is basicly a glacier without the mountain flanks left and right to hold it.

First of all, this means, that it shouldn't be there at all but crumble under it's own weight. Ice just cannot hold this weight. But ok, let's move on.

So the Wall is basicaly a glacier, Which means, that it should behave like one. That would mean, that the presure of the ice would render its basis into a plastic, flowing state, moving slowly but moving downhill. And yet the Wall seems to be rock solid in its place. They have no trouble with their ice cells or their tunnel-gates or their steps. Everything stays just put where it belongs. It is as if the Wall was solid rock. The steps cut from the ice at the Night Fort are still there. They are somewhat washed down, but still at the Nightfort for Meera to climb.

Then this Wall has a huge soutern front directly exposed to the sun. Glaciers recede during Summer and loose millions of tons of ice. Of course the front of a glacier is more or less the mouth of a river. So the ice lost during summer is replaced during winter with the ice brought by that river.

But with a glacier this only works, because the long river of ice collects the snow pressing down from the flanks of the mountains surrounding it. The Wall can't collect any fresh ice that way. All it gets is the snow which falls on its topp. So yeah, maybe every Lord Commander has left it a little higher, then he found it. But that was through no fault of his own.

Anyway, under normal conditions, that is not nearly enough to replace what the Wall should loose day after day along its 100 leagues long southern front. Even sunny winterdays would cost a lot of water and weaken its structure.

We witness the avalanche killing Jarl. By the description of it, it covers several hundred square meters of the Wall's flank. That is a sigle event on a single day. In a summer lasting years, the Wall would loose more water, then thousands of builders could ever replace. And not being the mouth of a iceriver but a thin line, it would sooner or later brake down into chain of ice hills

And that is why right now I am in love with Black Crows idea: The Wall is eternal, magical through and through. It is the line that has always been separating summer from Winter, fire from ice. It has always been there. One of the great hinges of the world.

[Uncat]

I wish we had a complete Old Nan tale about the Rat Cook, because he served the Andal king his prince-and-bacon-pie. And again it was the Nightfort where King Sherrit (?what king is this?) had called down his curse on the Andals of old. These are stories I would like more of!

I find that tales intriguing, too. But they all take place, when the Wall and the Nightfort already are in place.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

The Wall.

It is 700 feet (about 200 meters) high. It seems to be more then 200 feet thick at his base. If you do the math, you will see, that it holds about five cubic kilometres (or five so six billion tons) of water. Give or take a billion.

And that is why right now I am in love with Black Crows idea: The Wall is eternal, magical through and through. It is the line that has always been separating summer from Winter, fire from ice. It has always been there. One of the great hinges of the world.

GRRM has admitted regret in making it so huge. I don't think anyone is arguing that there is not magic involved in the wall, however that does not mean there wasn't a lot of manual labor in constructing it. Also consider that perhaps the wall was once the size of hadrians wall, and then each year it was added to. Over 4,000 years it would take a few inches a year to achieve.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

BTW, the idea of the wall is present in Norse Mythology as part of nifelheim, the domain of Hel:

"Hel he cast into Niflheim, and gave to her power over nine worlds, to apportion all abodes among those that were sent to her: that is, men dead of sickness or of old age. She has great possessions there; her walls are exceeding high and her gates great."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niflheim

[Elaena Targaryen]

Upon my re-read, allbeit a very slow one, at the scene with Lady meeting her end it truly saddened me all over again. I don't know if Sansa would ever have discovered her warging abilities but understanding how strong the bond was I'm sure a part of Sansa also died with Lady. The Direwolves were a reflection of their children even in the way they behaved. GRRM seemed to go to great lengths to describe that bond.

I'm not sure about "a part of Sansa died with Lady" I think a part of Lady went into Sansa when Lady died from their close bond... maybe Lady's second life. I think the connection with the direwolves goes far beyond any other animal, it seems more a soulmate type bond the way they 'feel' eachother emotions as you have already pointed out. We do see Sansa have brutal impulses after Lady dies and it could be the direwolf's influence like when Sansa wanted to shove Joffery off the ramparts or when she said Robb would bring her Joff's head. Of course Sansa has good reason to lash out and those reasons are less crackpot but I still find it out of character for her and personaly I really want Lady to still be a part of Sansa! :)

[Efilnikufesin]

I'm not sure about "a part of Sansa died with Lady" I think a part of Lady went into Sansa when Lady died from their close bond... maybe Lady's second life. I think the connection with the direwolves goes far beyond any other animal, it seems more a soulmate type bond the way they 'feel' eachother emotions as you have already pointed out. We do see Sansa have brutal impulses after Lady dies and it could be the direwolf's influence like when Sansa wanted to shove Joffery off the ramparts or when she said Robb would bring her Joff's head. Of course Sansa has good reason to lash out and those reasons are less crackpot but I still find it out of character for her and personaly I really want Lady to still be a part of Sansa! :)

I kind of like this, i.e. that the direwolves are almost meant to be a sacrifice to unleash the power that the Stark's need, almost like sacrificing a part of themselves.

[Mace Cooterian]

The Wall could look like stone, all grey and pitted, but then the clouds would break and the sun would hit it differently, and all at once it would transform, and stand there white and blue and glittering. It was the end of the world, Old Nan always said. On the other side were monsters and giants and ghouls, but they could not pass so long as the Wall stood strong.

“I could tell you the story about Brandon the Builder,” Old Nan said. “That was always your favorite.”

Thousands and thousands of years ago, Brandon the Builder had raised Winterfell, and some said the Wall. Bran knew the story, but it had never been his favorite.

Now what’s interesting here is that the story obviously doesn’t involve the building of the Wall.

"The wall could look like stone"....do we have it documented anywhere that the wall is actually ice through and through? Is it possible that buried beneath all that ice is....well, something other than ice (dirt, stone, bodies, giants, dragons...dare say I....wierwoods).

I am in agreement with BC about Brandon the builder constructing (personal choice of word) the wall. Whether it's Nan's story, or Bran recollecting; the emphasis seems to fall on Winterfell, with some speculating that Brandon also built the wall.

As for the magic that went into the bulding of the wall...don't have a clue. I sort of had the idea about the Great Wall of Chino buried in a 100 year ice or snow storm (...the long night).

[addicted to snow]

As I say, the whole point of this prologue wasn't to say that Varamyr knows nothing, but to explain the process in order to forestall the Jon will die but warg into Ghost...

Yes, the Prologue to ADWD was included by the author to let the reader know what would happen to Jon when he is stabbed. It is also there to give the reader a rough overview of how Warging/Skin-changing works. Offering information that couldn't be provided by Bran or Jojen.

However, I feel that that the author left us a number of clues to suggest that Varamyr (as well as Haggon) are not well educated with regards to their gift. Not unlike information offered through Mel's fire visions, GRRM suggest that Varamyr's ideas on Warging might not be reliable.

1) Almost everything Varamyr knows about Warging came from Haggon who was too scared of his own powers to fully embrace them.

2) Haggon said don't Warg Birds... We have seen numerous times that Haggon was wrong about this

3) Haggon said don't Warg Shadow-cats... We have seen that he was wrong as well

GRRM gave us reason to question Varamyr's Warging 'education'.

Then GRRM tells us that Varamyr THOUGHT that he would loose his gift after his original body died, but he was not sure... It seems to me that if this were actually the case, then GRRM wouldn't have made Varamyr's education unreliable, and he would not have used the word "THOUGHT" in the sentence above... I think that Warging events that Varamyr has experienced first-hand are accurate, I only question the parts where he is guessing.

I'm not suggesting that you or anyone else should agree that Varamyr is providing unreliable information, I am only stating why I feel that parts are somewhat questionable, and that Varamyr is by no means an expert on what will happen after his human body dies.

In my opinion, there is foreshadowing in ASOIAF that leads me to believe that Jon will take Hodor's body... I also believe that this will be the first of many bodies he takes as Jon's path forward will follow some dark roads & many, many 'abominations' will be committed.

Another point that I agree with you on is that Jon will get his original body back at some point. It will probably be his preferred vessel, but he will likely have many skins to choose from...

[Black Crow]

Yes, the Prologue to ADWD was included by the author to let the reader know what would happen to Jon when he is stabbed. It is also there to give the reader a rough overview of how Warging/Skin-changing works. Offering information that couldn't be provided by Bran or Jojen.

However, I feel that that the author left us a number of clues to suggest that Varamyr (as well as Haggon) are not well educated with regards to their gift. Not unlike information offered through Mel's fire visions, GRRM suggest that Varamyr's ideas on Warging might not be reliable.

1) Almost everything Varamyr knows about Warging came from Haggon who was too scared of his own powers to fully embrace them.

2) Haggon said don't Warg Birds... We have seen numerous times that Haggon was wrong about this

3) Haggon said don't Warg Shadow-cats... We have seen that he was wrong as well

GRRM gave us reason to question Varamyr's Warging 'education'.

Only up to a point. Reasons were given which largely centred around the amount of time spent there. Haggon didn't warn against warging birds and some of the other beasts, absolutely. What he was warning against was taking them as familiars because then the warg started taking on some of the characteristics of the beast. That in turn was reinforcing what Jojen and Meera earlier told Bran about a part of him being in Summer and part of Summer being in Bran. While Varamyr was powerful enough to skinchange a number of animals, he didn't have that bond with most of them.

[Black Crow]

GRRM has admitted regret in making it so huge. I don't think anyone is arguing that there is not magic involved in the wall, however that does not mean there wasn't a lot of manual labor in constructing it. Also consider that perhaps the wall was once the size of hadrians wall, and then each year it was added to. Over 4,000 years it would take a few inches a year to achieve.

He has indeed, but even allowing for a reduction by half, that's still way too big for humans, even with the help of giants, to accomplish. Leaving aside all the excellent reasons given by UnCat, there's also the matter of hoisting blocks of ice all that way up along a front of 300 miles. Barrels of gravel are bad enough, and as I also said there's the not inconsiderable matter of the likely human cost of building something like this - remember the stories of the building of Harrenhal - and big though it is, its not a patch on the Wall, its built from stone and it was built in a temperate climate. Yet no such stories attach to the building of the Wall.

In fact all that we do know about the building of the Wall is that legend says (very unreliably according to GRRM) that it was Bran the Builder who did it, and its this absolute lack of any tradition far less knowledge which makes me wonder...

[Black Crow]

BTW, the idea of the wall is present in Norse Mythology as part of nifelheim, the domain of Hel:

"Hel he cast into Niflheim, and gave to her power over nine worlds, to apportion all abodes among those that were sent to her: that is, men dead of sickness or of old age. She has great possessions there; her walls are exceeding high and her gates great."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niflheim

Casting the land beyond the Wall as Nilfheim would certainly be consistent with the concept of it being the realm of Ice

[Tyryan Lannister]

He has indeed, but even allowing for a reduction by half, that's still way too big for humans, even with the help of giants, to accomplish. Leaving aside all the excellent reasons given by UnCat, there's also the matter of hoisting blocks of ice all that way up along a front of 300 miles. Barrels of gravel are bad enough, and as I also said there's the not inconsiderable matter of the likely human cost of building something like this - remember the stories of the building of Harrenhal - and big though it is, its not a patch on the Wall, its built from stone and it was built in a temperate climate. Yet no such stories attach to the building of the Wall.

In fact all that we do know about the building of the Wall is that legend says (very unreliably according to GRRM) that it was Bran the Builder who did it, and its this absolute lack of any tradition far less knowledge which makes me wonder...

Casting the land beyond the Wall as Nilfheim would certainly be consistent with the concept of it being the realm of Ice

Maybe the answer to "who built the Wall" is as simple as No One Did.

We have from Mel that the Wall is "a hinge of the world"... what if the reason for the Wall being there is simply because it's a magical hinge between realms, kind of a lay line type of thing, and that, over time (especially with long, long winters with unfathomable amounts of snow), a hoarfrost grasped onto this magical boundary (maybe during The Long Night it became so cold that even magical barriers/boundaries were able to freeze over?) and, instead of melting after the Winter, the magical properties inherent in the frozen barrier caused the snow/ice to attach to it and largely remain there, only coming off slowly and intermittently