R'hllor, the Shadow Lands, the Great Other and the Lands of Always Winter

[Avimimus]

Is there any evidence at all that 'the shadow' isn't figurative? It could be a latitude thing (e.g. Antarctic latitudes with prolonged dusks lasting multiple days). Seasons are odd enough in these stories.

If it is figurative then any area like 'the Sorrows' could qualify as being shadowed...

[Toccs]

Is there any evidence at all that 'the shadow' isn't figurative? It could be a latitude thing (e.g. Antarctic latitudes with prolonged dusks lasting multiple days). Seasons are odd enough in these stories.

If it is figurative then any area like 'the Sorrows' could qualify as being shadowed...

It's mentioned somewhere that the Shadowlands are basically in perpetual shadow because of the huge mountain range that encloses them.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I think Toccs is right, I am struggling to right what GRRM has said regarding it being a religion worshipped in Asshai with textural evidence of R'hllor being a god of Asshai. There is just no reference to it in book at all and non in the App or the Wiki.

The passage in ACOK (Davos 1) has Mel saying that in ancient books of Asshai it is written, blah blah sword, blah AAR, blah blah. Its quite vaguely said really she says this prophesy is written in ancient books in Asshai but we are not told that this prophesy originates in Asshai only that it is written in ancient books there. Asshai is a hub of trade and magic. Its a place where people travel to acquire skills and knowledge.

Its stated in the Wiki that Asshai has a large amount of texts containing Arcane knowledge and may have books referring to Dragonlore. To me this implies that they hold many ancient texts and the AAR prophesy being amongst them does not necessarily mean it is an Asshai'i prophesy in origin.

Yea I'm sticking to my initial theory There are clues within the text that tell us Mel is not really from Asshai yet she is repeatedly refered to as Mellisandre of Asshai. We can't take everything we read or are told at face value sometimes GRRM is deliberatly vague & misleading. R'hllor being stated as a god who is worhipped in Asshai & the east was said back in 1998, and that passage from ACOK was obviously written back then too but it would seem that as the story has evolved GRRM has made it clear in text that Asshai is not a big hub for the religion at all.

[Dark Sister's Winter Rose]

I swear like 1% of threads here actually belong in this section.

I don't believe the guidlines of the forum say that complaining about the organisation of the topics, or you vehiment beliefe about the lack there of such topical organisation belongs here either, but here we are.

[Toccs]

I swear like 1% of threads here actually belong in this section.

I don't believe the guidlines of the forum say that complaining about the organisation of the topics, or you vehiment beliefe about the lack there of such topical organisation belongs here either, but here we are.

What in seven hells are you talking about?

[hiemal]

My working theory is that those who live in the Shadowed Lands worship the Red Lord more for his power over darkness (and his ambiguous relationship with shadows?) than cold. His interest in the North may be no more than a ploy by Melisandre.

[glass_table_girl]

[Edit] Sorry. New here. Posted in the wrong thread and trying to figure out how to delete this.

[Arya Summer Child]

Haven't read half of posts as I am scared of spoilers. But for one thing I am 100% sure that the Westeros is England. The North is Scotland. As it is fantasy, I would not take much attention to exact locations of all places, except that all these places are real in some way in today's map.

[Stormking Alesander I]

There are already some threads about similar subjects, but they all focus on special aspects of this topic, such as whether Daenarys will travel through the Shadow Lands to arrive in Westeros or not, or if the others ever conquered all af the known world including Essos etc.

Thats why I opened this thread, to get all the theories, concerning this subject area together.

In the first place I wondered why the worship of R'hllor, a religion about defeating the Othters is practicised in Asshai, a city located exactly on the other side of the world (North/West - East/South). Why do the people of Asshai care and know about the Others and the rising cold, if the Others didn't conquer Essos? The Shadow Lands in the south of Asshai are discribed as an equalence or counterpart of the Lands of Always Winter. The cold, the Others and the Great Other against, fire, dragons and R'hllor on the other hand. According to GRRM there will be no POV taking us to Asshai. When Quaithe prophesies Danaerys "To go north, you must journey south, to reach the west you must go east....", further she says "...to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow". Dany refuses to go to Asshai and Quaithe answers that she will find truth there (she confirms Asshai). A prophecy is only concerning the future, not the past. When Dany talks to Quaithe they are in Quarth, but she never went east of Quarth if you take a look on every excisting map of Essos. http://cdn.serietivu...-ed-Essos-3.jpg

Some of you might know the Movie Fire & Ice. Its about the rising cold and its armies, the protagonists flee in the south, where the final battle is fought. Did GRRM had the plan to let the final battle take place in the shadow lands as well and changed his mind later (because of the lack of time etc)?

Another thought leading me to the east is that GRRM has equalences to almost every region or historical forces of our world.

Geographical & historical: Westeros/North America; Essos/Eurasia; Sothoryos/Africa; Valyria/Greece,Minoan Culture (Santorin); free cities/Europe; Dorne/Mexico (salsa food etc); Ghiscar/old Egypt; Dothraki Sea/Russia (mongols, skyths, turks); Slavers Cities/Sumer, Babylon etc. The only missing equalences are China (Yi Ti) and India (Asshai?), the rising powers of our present age. This made me think, that we will meet a completely new force/area later in the books, but GRRM's statement not to go Asshai means the opposite.

What do you think of all the wong (?) prophecies and misleading hints, what is your theory about the equalence between the Land of Allways Winter/the Great Other and the Shadow Lands/R'hllor at the other hand and finally what are your thoughts concerning the resolving of the story?

I don't think North America has ever been similar to Westeros either historically or geographically. I'd say Westeros-Europe, Free Cities-Fertile Crescent and America-Any recently civilised continent formerly full of savages

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Did you just said that Native Americans were savages?

[Sans A Stark in Winterfell]

*Insert lyrics from Colors of the Wind here*

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Stygai entry says that it lies in the Vale of Shadows and it only sees light at noon, except that no light falls there. So I assume that the Shadow Lands is so called because of it?

[Toccs]

Stygai entry says that it lies in the Vale of Shadows and it only sees light at noon, except that no light falls there. So I assume that the Shadow Lands is so called because of it?

Indeed, from the Asshai entry

and beside the lands of the Shadow—so named because they lie almost perpetually in the shadows of the mighty mountains that surround them.

[Don Roberto]

:(

to quote Cueball, "surrounded by boring mysteries"

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Indeed, from the Asshai entry

and beside the lands of the Shadow—so named because they lie almost perpetually in the shadows of the mighty mountains that surround them.

I think that entry is old, older than the update and it seems like Asshai's entry remained same (probably because it would give away too much?). I think it's not named due the mountains. No matter how tall they are, they cannot block the sunlight? So I think it's something unnatural/magical as stated in Stygai's entry.

[OnlyOne]

All this conjecture. Hell, a big dragon casts a huge shadow. So does a mountain. This is fantasy. On this forum someone was actually discussing how ice spiders would not be able to move fast in the cold. What? Are you crazy? It's all make believe. Good grief. If I see some 'others' walking down my block, I'll let you know. Lmao.

[Whitering]

All this conjecture. Hell, a big dragon casts a huge shadow. So does a mountain. This is fantasy. On this forum someone was actually discussing how ice spiders would not be able to move fast in the cold. What? Are you crazy? It's all make believe. Good grief. If I see some 'others' walking down my block, I'll let you know. Lmao.

You aren't going to last long on this board if that kind of conjecture drives you to make a useless post like this, well, maybe if it makes you laugh, but keep it to yourself please. It's true that some theories often bandied about here are largely to pass the time, but with so little new material to discuss its what we have been reduced to, we are a product of free time, it's why there are 6 or 7 iterations of the earliest spoiler chapter threads.

[Uncle Stannis]

I don't think North America has ever been similar to Westeros either historically or geographically. I'd say Westeros-Europe, Free Cities-Fertile Crescent and America-Any recently civilised continent formerly full of savages

Ha, what a gigantic dick head.

[Toccs]

I think that entry is old, older than the update and it seems like Asshai's entry remained same (probably because it would give away too much?). I think it's not named due the mountains. No matter how tall they are, they cannot block the sunlight? So I think it's something unnatural/magical as stated in Stygai's entry.

Oh I agree, there's no way that mounatins however tall can permanetly block the sunlight. But for a city like Stygai whichb is located deep in a valley surrouned by tall mountains on literally all sides, it could concievably spend the majority of the day in the shadow of those peaks. Which is enough for a myth of "perpetual shadow" to get about.

[Vaelya of Asshai]

What people, including myself, think the places are based on: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/59125-what-country-does-each-kingdom-represent-historically/page-10?hl=asshai#entry5699170

Also, this isn't possible. Asshai ends on the Lands of Ice and Fire, and is not connected to anything else. The Lands of Always Winter could lead into Sothoryos or Ulthos, but then the White Walkers, Wights, and Others would go there.

Maps: http://www.fantasticmaps.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/World_Of_Ice_And_Fire.jpg

http://www.fantasticmaps.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Asshai.jpg