What "bad guy" do you feel sorry for?

[Florina Laufeyson]

Dammit Florina! No offense, but can you stick with an avatar pic for more then 5 days?

I cant have a rotator so i have to compensate! Sorry...

[Starfell]

I have some level of sympathy with most of the villains, I guess the ones who stand out are Cersei during the moments when her humanity shows through the cracks; Theon for the pitiful creature he's become;Viserys; and Joffrey who, monster though he was, was so utterly failed by everybody who was supposed to have a hand in his upbringing

[The Great Walrus]

I cant have a rotator so i have to compensate! Sorry...

I can forgive you don't worry, it's just i that i find it mildly annoying that in the time i've knowen you, you gone through about 8 different ones.

[Pod The Impaler]

Theon wins this one, fairly easily. He's not a total villain, but his selfishness and puffed up pride walked him right into a trap. Now after all the horrible things which have befallen him, I kind of want him to survive and redeem himself, though chances are he's a dead man long before that happens.

Jaime is kinda sympathetic now, but even minus the Bran-shoving, he also went along with the whole Tysha incident. He's as culpable as Tyrion, because he was older and also could have stuck to the truth and defended his brother. Instead that was the first time he trashed his own honour and hurt an innocent. (I still think there is more to the Tysha incident to be revealed later.)

Catelyn was not a villain, but Lady Stoneheart seems to be (or at least a very dark anti-hero).

Rickard Karstark too - he was as undone by his own grief as Catelyn was by hers.

Kevan Lannister ? Turns out to be a way more well-adjusted Lannister than you'd expect, and quite human. Yet he seconded everything Tywin ever did, so I suppose morally he had it coming.

I suppose Mag The Mighty would count as a being on the "bad guy" side, though he was no true villain, just an unfirtunate casualty of the situation.

[TheGreyKraken]

Call me crazy, but I kind of feel sorry for Ramsey. Unlike a lot of the villains in these books, he has the defense of being totally insane. And I suspect he may be the only person in the entire North who doesn't kow that he's not really married to a princess.

Actually, maybe I just prefer him to his father, who is just pure cold, black-hearted evil.

I can understand this, Ramsay is just the product of complete disregard from his father. "Don't make me rue the day I raped your mother". This basically sums up their father-son relationship.

[TheGreyKraken]

It wasn't fitting. She was sentenced to the WoS for having affairs after she was widowed. It was a misogynistic punishment. No men in the series, most of whom have sex outside of marriage, had to take the WoS. Not saying she doesn't deserve to be held accountable for her many crimes, but the punishment needs to fit the crime. And Cersei's one and only punishment to date is for something not even criminal.

My feelings toward Cersei are complex and I find her story more tragic than villainous. But I'm certainly not a Cersei apologist. Just answering the OP.

Never looked at it that way but its true that the WoS was a pretty harsh punishment for only that crime. :P

[DogLover]

I can understand this, Ramsay is just the product of complete disregard from his father. "Don't make me rue the day I raped your mother". This basically sums up their father-son relationship.

So, you can understand feeling pity for Ramsay, but not Cersei, whose father was Tywin? Um, okay. :dunno:

[TheGreyKraken]

So, you can understand feeling pity for Ramsay, but not Cersei, whose father was Tywin? Um, okay. :dunno:

No Ramsay is a monster, just pointing out why he is one. :)

[The Great Walrus]

No Ramsay is a monster, just pointing out why he is one. :)

I think Ramsay would be just as much of a monster even if Roose had taken any interest in raising him. Also, what is dead REMAINS DEAD!!

[DavosSeaworthy]

Tywin, because he is stupid. If he would have actually had an open mind and saw Tyrion for his worth he would have avoided a ton of his problems. Tyrion was smart and could have been a suitable heir with Jamie in the KG, thus making Tyrion one of the best marrige prospects in the realm, and he could have used this to create a big time alliance with another house. Any house with half a brain would bang at the door to get a marrige alliance, even with an 'imp'. Hell, if he was smart he could have made an arrangement with the Mormonts and possibly wound up with a Valyrian Sword (a bit out there but not out of the realm of possibilities). He was so blind towards his other two childern that they were baning each other and have created a situation that when their power is further reduced, people will believe Stannis's letter and use that as a reason to turn on them (I've felt that most people in the realm believe it anyways, it is just a situation where the Lannisters hold a ton of power so people just shut up about it). If he would have realized Tyrions potential early on, lots of things could have been different, instead he helped facilitate the downfall of his house.

[TheGreyKraken]

I think Ramsay would be just as much of a monster even if Roose had taken any interest in raising him. Also, what is dead REMAINS DEAD!!

Haha well Reek also influenced Ramsay's current stage for sure.

Also Catelyn begs to differ XD.

[Pod The Impaler]

It wasn't fitting. She was sentenced to the WoS for having affairs after she was widowed. It was a misogynistic punishment. No men in the series, most of whom have sex outside of marriage, had to take the WoS. Not saying she doesn't deserve to be held accountable for her many crimes, but the punishment needs to fit the crime. And Cersei's one and only punishment to date is for something not even criminal.

They punishment fit typical medieval sexism / prudishness, no doubt. "Fornication" ? A charge based in religious fundamentalism, on some sort of sexual vindictiveness.

Yet, I cannot feel sorry for Cersei, and the reason is the things she has done. She has used her sex insincerely, as a weapon, as a means to have power over others. It backfired. (That's not typically a crime though, just shitty behavior.) But this particular situation she is in is the result of trap she tried to trick Margaery into (to condemn Margaery to death).

In addition, there's what she did to "Tyrion's whore" (both false and real), or what she condoned regarding Sansa, or ordered for Senelle and Falyse, and the pride she felt at what her father did to her grandfather's mistress. In other words, Cersei has no problem seeing other women fed into the misogynist meat-grinder, or even personally feeding them to it. So how can one feel sorry for her when she slipped and fell in it herself ?

[Florina Laufeyson]

They punishment fit typical medieval sexism / prudishness, no doubt. "Fornication" ? A charge based in religious fundamentalism, on some sort of sexual vindictiveness.

Yet, I cannot feel sorry for Cersei, and the reason is the things she has done. She has used her sex insincerely, as a weapon, as a means to have power over others. It backfired. (That's not typically a crime though, just shitty behavior.) But this particular situation she is in is the result of trap she tried to trick Margaery into (to condemn Margaery to death).

In addition, there's what she did to "Tyrion's whore" (both false and real), or what she condoned regarding Sansa, or ordered for Senelle and Falyse, and the pride she felt at what her father did to her grandfather's mistress. In other words, Cersei has no problem seeing other women fed into the misogynist meat-grinder, or even personally feeding them to it. So how can one feel sorry for her when she slipped and fell in it herself ?

This is actually part of the reason ive grown to pity her so much. She just doesnt get it. Shes a product of the patriarchal society, but she cannot seem to break away from that and condemns other women. Its hella pitiable. I hate hypocrisy but i also pity those who cannot see their own hypocrisy.

[The Great Walrus]

They punishment fit typical medieval sexism / prudishness, no doubt. "Fornication" ? A charge based in religious fundamentalism, on some sort of sexual vindictiveness.

Yet, I cannot feel sorry for Cersei, and the reason is the things she has done. She has used her sex insincerely, as a weapon, as a means to have power over others. It backfired. (That's not typically a crime though, just shitty behavior.) But this particular situation she is in is the result of trap she tried to trick Margaery into (to condemn Margaery to death).

In addition, there's what she did to "Tyrion's whore" (both false and real), or what she condoned regarding Sansa, or ordered for Senelle and Falyse, and the pride she felt at what her father did to her grandfather's mistress. In other words, Cersei has no problem seeing other women fed into the misogynist meat-grinder, or even personally feeding them to it. So how can one feel sorry for her when she slipped and fell in it herself ?

Pod, i will use this post everytime i run into a Cersei-pologists.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Im not Cersei-apologizing because that woman drives me up a wall. But i feel sorry for her because shes just so...eewww. Just saiyan. Super saiyan.

[The Great Walrus]

Im not Cersei-apologizing because that woman drives me up a wall. But i feel sorry for her because shes just so...eewww. Just saiyan. Super saiyan.

For gods sake, first your speaking Cthulu language, now your gong all Super Saiyan on me, whats next?

[Florina Laufeyson]

For gods sake, first your speaking Cthulu language, now your gong all Super Saiyan on me, whats next?

Hodor.

[The Great Walrus]

Hodor.

I should've seen this coming.

[DogLover]

They punishment fit typical medieval sexism / prudishness, no doubt. "Fornication" ? A charge based in religious fundamentalism, on some sort of sexual vindictiveness.

Yet, I cannot feel sorry for Cersei, and the reason is the things she has done. She has used her sex insincerely, as a weapon, as a means to have power over others. It backfired. (That's not typically a crime though, just shitty behavior.) But this particular situation she is in is the result of trap she tried to trick Margaery into (to condemn Margaery to death).

In addition, there's what she did to "Tyrion's whore" (both false and real), or what she condoned regarding Sansa, or ordered for Senelle and Falyse, and the pride she felt at what her father did to her grandfather's mistress. In other words, Cersei has no problem seeing other women fed into the misogynist meat-grinder, or even personally feeding them to it. So how can one feel sorry for her when she slipped and fell in it herself ?

I’m not apologizing for Cersei’s crimes. They’re heinous indeed, and, of course, also misogynistic. But I still couldn't help but feel pity for her when I read that chapter. And I don't think "a taste of your own medicine" is always right, especially in this situation. When I think of “bad guys” I think of the worst villains—Gregor, Ramsay, Brave Companions, Roose, the Freys, and Cersei earns a special spot on this list. She's not as black as them, but she does have one foot over that line. Unlike the others I mentioned, there’s tragedy to her story and her relationship with her father and Robert also occasionally evokes pity from me. But, for the most part, I'm appalled by her and can’t wait until she receives her comeuppance. I hope Jaime chokes the life out of her. (And I hope Tommen and Myrcella survive.)

I don’t really consider some of the other characters that have been mentioned—Theon, Sandor, Stannis and Jaime—to be bad guys. Just people who have done bad things. Theon is more pathetic than anything, and Sandor and Jaime fall into the antihero category.

[Azureguy]

Alot of the ones I'd say have been well covered. Tywin, Viserys, Theon, etc.

Joffrey. He may have been a maniacal sadist prick, but thats because he was sheltered, over protected, and taught bullshit by his mom. Not to mention Having Two Not-Fathers.