Is this impression of Serena Williams a form of blackface?

[Roose Seal]

Exactly. When most of the people in this thread have never heard of it. And it's not common enough to make the wikipedia entry of common African-American stereotypes, I question how universal it is.

So the fact that there are several links that show it's a stereotype is not good enough proof, but the fact that it's not in a list of stereotypes on wikipedia is evidence enough?

I don't understand the logic here.

[mormont]

while i don't necessarily disagree with your argument, i don't think linking things on the internet and stating they are universal is great evidence. there is a whole world of shite out there, i hope we all agree that a lot of it should be ignored.

I honestly am not sure I understand your point, but then I think it's because you didn't understand mine. The mere fact that links have been given doesn't indicate that the stereotype is universal, though it's obviously much better evidence than 'well I never heard of it!' What I'm saying is that those links specifically discuss the universality of the trope. They are both primary and secondary evidence of the universality issue. Against this, we have only personal anecdotal evidence of the non-universality of the trope.

[MisterOJ]

So the fact that there are several links that show it's a stereotype is not good enough proof, but the fact that it's not in a list of stereotypes on wikipedia is evidence enough?

I don't understand the logic here.

I went back and looked at the links Mormont provided. None of them really had anything to do with the tennis incident in question. None of them said black women were commonly portrayed as having large breasts and butts. The links mentioned butts, yes, but not breasts as a common trope.

In the tennis incident, Woz portrayed Williams as having large breast and a large butt. I have yet to see anything that say that is a common racist trope for black women.

[mormont]

I went back and looked at the links Mormont provided. None of them really had anything to do with the tennis incident in question.

Did anyone say they did?

If that's what you're looking for, there are no shortage of people out there discussing how they saw the mockery as being (intentionally or not) racist. Note:

In a poll of readers on Huffington Post’s Black Voices section, 40 percent found the stunt to be racist. But 38 percent said it wasn’t and 21 percent weren’t sure.

“This is an old racist trope about our supposed hypersexuality and sexual abnormality,” commented Twitter user @hazzarDeuce on the Black Voices Twitter page.

“I know they are friends, but still, inside it does something to me, because we’ve been made fun of for so long for different parts of our bodies,” co-host Sherri Shepherd said on “The View” Tuesday. “And to see Serena Williams reduced to this, I don’t like it.”

None of them said black women were commonly portrayed as having large breasts and butts. The links mentioned butts, yes, but not breasts as a common trope.

Oh, well, that makes all the difference. Mocking someone's tits and ass is completely different from mocking their ass alone! I can totally see how the latter is racist and the former is totally unrelated and therefore not in the least bit racist.

By the way, you are wrong. Some of the links provided earlier in the thread do specifically discuss the hypersexual portrayal of black women's breasts as well as their backside - though some discuss the backside alone. Not the ones I linked, but links provided by others.

[Greywolf2375]

Oh, well, that makes all the difference. Mocking someone's tits and ass is completely different from mocking their ass alone! I can totally see how the latter is racist and the former is totally unrelated and therefore not in the least bit racist.

I would love for anyone to look at the picture of what she did and identify that she is mocking Williams instead of Simona Halep.

Also, the Blame Pod thread appears to still be open on page 8 - based on your post a few pages ago it needs to be closed for reinforcing Irish stereotypes.

[MisterOJ]

Oh, well, that makes all the difference. Mocking someone's tits and ass is completely different from mocking their ass alone! I can totally see how the latter is racist and the former is totally unrelated and therefore not in the least bit racist.

By the way, you are wrong. Some of the links provided earlier in the thread do specifically discuss the hypersexual portrayal of black women's breasts as well as their backside - though some discuss the backside alone. Not the ones I linked, but links provided by others.

I'll go back and see if I can find the one that mentioned breasts as well, but at this point, if it turns out to be true - that's an outlier, not a common trope.

And it does make all the difference that she was portraying Williams as having a large bust and a large butt. Because she does and that in itself is not a racist stereotype. If she had portrayed Williams as having a big butt only - you'd have an argument for racism. Because that is a common stereotype for black women. I'll agree with you.

But, she didn't do that. She portrayed Williams as having both a big bust and a big butt - which she does. So what Woz was doing was poking fun at Williams as a person - not a black person.

[Elder Sister]

I hate to keep arguing, and like Castel, this thread has tuckered me out.

However, there is a reason Tyler Perry and Martin Lawrence dress in drag with big boobies and big butts. It's a stereotype that is actually common for black women. I know this and I'm some dufus from Redneck, Mississippi. I didn't have to Google it to find the info., either.

I hate arguing with you lovely people. :)

[mormont]

I would love for anyone to look at the picture of what she did and identify that she is mocking Williams instead of Simona Halep.

Er... surely the whole point is that everyone instantly understood that was what she was doing?

Also, the Blame Pod thread appears to still be open on page 8 - based on your post a few pages ago it needs to be closed for reinforcing Irish stereotypes.

Yeah, repeating a really feeble comparison doesn't actually make it a better comparison. If you've missed the point, missing it again does nothing for your case.

And it does make all the difference that she was portraying Williams as having a large bust and a large butt. Because she does and that in itself is not a racist stereotype. If she had portrayed Williams as having a big butt only - you'd have an argument for racism. Because that is a common stereotype for black women. I'll agree with you.

But, she didn't do that. She portrayed Williams as having both a big bust and a big butt - which she does. So what Woz was doing was poking fun at Williams as a person - not a black person.

Let's be clear: she was indeed mocking Serena as a person. That doesn't mean that she wasn't doing so, intentionally or unintentionally, in a way that referenced a racist trope and was therefore racist. It's possible to be racist without intending to be. (It's possible to be insulting or offensive in all sorts of other ways without intending to be, too.)

I have to say that if the 'non-racist' argument now entirely relies on the inclusion of towels in Wozniacki's top as well as her shorts, it's looking somewhat weak.

[MisterOJ]

I hate to keep arguing, and like Castel, this thread has tuckered me out.

However, there is a reason Tyler Perry and Martin Lawrence dress in drag with big boobies and big butts. It's a stereotype that is actually common for black women. I know this and I'm some dufus from Redneck, Mississippi. I didn't have to Google it to find the info., either.

I hate arguing with you lovely people. :)

Yes they do.

But when Perry and Lawrence dress up like that, they are portraying the Mammy stereotype. It absolutely exists. You are correct.

But that isn't what Woz was doing on the tennis court at all. In fact, the Mammy stereotype is "usually a grossly overweight, large-breasted woman who is desexualized, maternal, and nonthreatening to white people but may be hostile towards men."

That's not what Woz was doing.

Let's be clear: she was indeed mocking Serena as a person. That doesn't mean that she wasn't doing so, intentionally or unintentionally, in a way that referenced a racist trope and was therefore racist. It's possible to be racist without intending to be. (It's possible to be insulting or offensive in all sorts of other ways without intending to be, too.)

I have to say that if the 'non-racist' argument now entirely relies on the inclusion of towels in Wozniacki's top as well as her shorts, it's looking somewhat weak.

I have to say, that if you have to throw out half of Woz's outfit to get it to fit into a racist stereotype, then your argument is extremely weak.

[Thlayli]

Hello, everyone! I am a huge huge huge tennis fan and will be hosting a super fun Wimbledon party Saturday night of finals weekend. You are all invited. Please come dressed as your favorite professional tennis player. Past or present. I'm going as John McEnroe. I've got the wrist and head bands, the nuthuggers and a wooden racket. And I'm going to act like a complete ass. Unfortunately, because there is no possible way for someone to come as the winner of 15 Grand Slam singles titles, 13 doubles titles and two mixed-double titles without rustling some PC Troglodyte's jimmies, the party will have to go on without the best player in the history of tennis.

Also, because I want everyone to have a super fun time and there is at least one Yannick Noah fan out there, no dreadlocks.

Because racist.

[mormont]

I have to say, that if you have to throw out half of Woz's outfit to get it to fit into a racist stereotype, then your argument is extremely weak.

As it happens, you don't.

[MisterOJ]

As it happens, you don't.

Unless you're making the argument that Woz was portraying Williams as the Mammy stereotype, you do.

If that is what you're arguing... well, bless your heart. :)

[Lyanna Stark]

:dunno: Terra, you are a censor. And oddly condescending, at that. ... And whatever, that's okay, I guess, as long as you don't get any real power. But this board has given me an education, which in itself is pretty neat. And that is if it came down to a choice of a world where people were nice to each other, and never "offended" each other intentionally or otherwise, and a world where people were free to speak what they want, the latter is the ideal paradigm every time.

Well, see, it's easy for you to say that people should not be offended when you can't see why things would be offensive. Why are ethnic minorities offended at racism? Why are women offended at sexism? Why are gays offended at homophobia, intentional or otherwise?

Can't you see how silly the notion is that your view of what is right should automatically have priority over groups that are disadvantaged? There is no inherent value in leaving things at a status quo and not exaime our biases, prejudices and privilige.

Fact is, this was a teasing show pointed at Serena Williams. Hers is the only opinion that even matters at all in it. Not yours, not mine, and not Billy Bob over in accounting. Yet all of us want to jump in an make value judgments to, what? Make ourselves feel better? Show that we're better than everyone else? I don't know.

Well, no. It's for the same reason someone pointed out before: what is acceptable in closed company and between friends gets a completely different flavour when out in the open. Uncouth or rude language can be perfectly fine between friends, because we know each other. However, in front of strangers, it can look extremely different, and in that sort of context, racist stereotypes should be avoided.

[Elder Sister]

Unless you're making the argument that Woz was portraying Williams as the Mammy stereotype, you do.

If that is what you're arguing... well, bless your heart. :)

Mister OJ, to my way of thinking, the mammy stereotype involves the red bandana on the head, the long skirt, and the Aunt Jemima coloring. Certainly, the two stereotypes I mentioned don't involve that. Tyler Perry and Martin Lawrence are simply portraying aging, or 'old' black women. And, the mammy stereotype is not the only stereotype out there, as Terra has shown repeatedly, in numerous links.

Again, the fact that you and others weren't aware of the 'hypersexualized' black woman stereotype doesn't mean it didn't exist. It just means you didn't know about it.

I'm not trying to be deliberately argumentative here, but again, if I knew about this, then it's not that uncommon. I didn't study this stuff in school, and simply live in a southern state in the US where stereotypes of African Americans are prevalent.

[mormont]

Unless you're making the argument that Woz was portraying Williams as the Mammy stereotype, you do.

Nope. I've made the argument all along that the hypersexualisation stereotype includes both T&A, which is, y'know, the facts. The insistence that it includes only the latter is something the non-racist side are trying to cling to: the claim that my points stand or fall on it is an attempt to beg the question, at best.

[Greywolf2375]

And if you're mocking someone for a racial characteristic, well, that's racist.

There is your statement. Mocking someone for a racial characteristic is racist. For Serena Williams, in the case, it is bust and buttocks size, with the board and Pod, it is Irish intelligence and ability. (

Yeah, repeating a really feeble comparison doesn't actually make it a better comparison. If you've missed the point, missing it again does nothing for your case.

How is mocking Serena - who is African American and is connected to the racial stereotypes - racism yet mocking Pod - who is Irish and is connected to the national stereotypes - not?

Let's be clear: she we was indeed mocking Serena Pod as a person. That doesn't mean that she we wasn't aren't doing so, intentionally or unintentionally, in a way that referenced a racist trope and was therefore racist. It's possible to be racist without intending to be. (It's possible to be insulting or offensive in all sorts of other ways without intending to be, too.)

So again, we mock Pod in good fun and jest, BUT underlying that is a stereotype that exists which we are tying into by blaming him.

[Fragile Bird]

Pod, bless his heart, has a very good sense of humour about it all. But dare I say, it's easier to mock white people, for obvious historic reasons, even if white people also sufferred under oppressive regimes for centuries, as in Ireland.

I have to say, though, I grew up in an era of the "Polish joke", and it was disgusting and hurtful, because they were nasty jokes, not clever jokes. There was attitude and religion to mock and slurs made about intelligence (see "A Streetcar Named Desire"), and both men and women were always physically mocked as being thick-set and thuggish looking. But if Serena Williams was Polish and white instead of American and black, I am utterly certain no one would have said boo to another tennis player coming out with padding to represent them. Maybe Poles would be angry, but Poles have a sense of humour. And yes, Poles were oppressed for centuries, our country a constant battlefield that was finally ripped up into three pieces like a rag. And the population was suppressed, not allowed to speak Polish, and education discouraged or simply not made available. And Poles responded by having a very good sense of humour about it all (if I put my mind to it, I could come up with some of the hundreds of "An American, a Russian and a Pole ..." type jokes I've heard in my life).

I still think blacks were treated worse in America, but what I'm saying is, please, don't casually dismiss racist stereotypes against nationalities as not being equivalent. And Greywolf is right, there are parallels to be made between Pod and Serena. Westeros claims 50,000 members, so the jokes are seen by a lot of people. But Pod has achieved a god-like, mythical status, so I think it's ok. Even so, Pod did say to me in Belfast that he thought maybe someone else should take up the mantle ....

ETA and yes, I'm aware of the irony here, that Caroline is ethnically Polish, not Danish, but it also explains her sense of humour. As I said, Polish people have a very good sense of humour.

[Greywolf2375]

Pod, bless his heart, has a very good sense of humour about it all. But dare I say, it's easier to mock white people, for obvious historic reasons, even if white people also sufferred under oppressive regimes for centuries, as in Ireland.

this may be a true statement, but is irrelevant based on the underlying stereotype being reinforced. If it doesn't make a difference if Serena has a good sense of humor about it, it shouldn't if Pod does.

But Pod has achieved a god-like, mythical status, so I think it's ok.

As has Serena in the world of tennis and fashion, so it should be ok.

[Ken Stone]

I have to say, though, I grew up in an era of the "Polish joke", and it was disgusting and hurtful, because they were nasty jokes, not clever jokes. There was attitude and religion to mock and slurs made about intelligence (see "A Streetcar Named Desire"), and both men and women were always physically mocked as being thick-set and thuggish looking. But if Serena Williams was Polish and white instead of American and black, I am utterly certain no one would have said boo to another tennis player coming out with padding to represent them. Maybe Poles would be angry, but Poles have a sense of humour. And yes, Poles were oppressed for centuries, our country a constant battlefield that was finally ripped up into three pieces like a rag. And the population was suppressed, not allowed to speak Polish, and education discouraged or simply not made available. And Poles responded by having a very good sense of humour about it all (if I put my mind to it, I could come up with some of the hundreds of "An American, a Russian and a Pole ..." type jokes I've heard in my life).

Oh yeah, Polish jokes. I remember they were really popular when I was a child. Where I grew up there weren't any Polish people and Polish jokes were the only thing I really knew about them. It's been years since I've heard anyone make a Polish joke. The same jokes are still around, people just substitute "Blonde". Except my gamer friend, who substitutes "Dwarf".

[Fragile Bird]

Yes, back in the sixties, as a response to post WW II immigration, IMO, the ethnic joke was very popular. You could go to a bookstore and find a series of books called "A 1001 Polish Jokes", "A 1001 Italian Jokes", "A 1001 Jewish Jokes". No Black Jokes books. I once looked through a few, and most of the jokes were the same jokes, with just the ethinicity changed. Except, IIRC, the Jewish book, it also had priest, reverend and rabbi type jokes, three religions kicked in the balls for the price of one. The idea was you were supposed to buy one and give it to your friend of that ethnicity, because, you know, jokes bout the bride being the one with the braided armpits were soooooo funny.