Why the Sympathy?

[Florina Laufeyson]

I dont think its Sam being fat that makes him more of the Author Avatar. I think its because hes bookish, not very good at martial aspects, much more sensitive, etc. So maybe GRRM had similar experiences as Sam did? I cant say for certain, but i do know one thing, GRRM loves his romance. (Beauty and the Beast anyone?)

[Elaena Targaryen]

If we are talking "author avatar" GRRM has plenty of other stories and characters to take into account. IIRC Martin has said the Turtle from Wild Cards is the most like him and his favorite all time character is Abner Marsh from Fevre Dream, I find neither one similar to Tyrion and IIRC he saidTyrion is just easy and fast to write same as Arya.

[flidderman]

Has no one read any Barthes? Authorial intent is meaningless.

[jons nissa]

If we are talking "author avatar" GRRM has plenty of other stories and characters to take into account. IIRC Martin has said the Turtle from Wild Cards is the most like him and his favorite all time character is Abner Marsh from Fevre Dream, I find neither one similar to Tyrion and IIRC he saidTyrion is just easy and fast to write same as Arya.

i recall him saying the same. he also said the first story he ever wrote was about his pet turtle so yeah. and he says he writes tyrion or arya when he is stuck to get things flowing again.

Let King in Yellow, your servant be born again from the pub, as you were. Bless him with beer, bless him with wine, bless him with whiskey.

What is drunk may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger and a much better dancer.

i just saw your signature and may i say i love it. cheers :cheers:

[Raksha the Demon]

The way the Cat/Jon relationship is framed is really interesting to me. For one, how we see her snap at him in Jon's POV, not Cat's. I do think Cat is meant to be sympathetic overall but I wonder how much GRRM considered the effects of the Cat/Jon dynamic. I feel that he had to have some idea as to how some people would respond - though I think he's said he is surprised by the amount of sheer vitriol she gets.

I'm not saying it's wrong to have written Cat the way he did; I think she's a brilliant character. I just wonder how much he pondered the effects of the whole Cat/Jon thing.

Some thoughts about Jon growing up in Winterfell with Cat as the closest thing he had to a mother...

The Cat/Jon relationship of Cat ostracizing and distrusting and saying cruel things to Jon (admittedly when short on sleep and desperately worried for her comatose child) never made much sense to me in light of Jon's attitude towards women. If the only mother-figure in Jon's early life, the female authority figure of his childhood and early youth, hated him and at the very least constantly turned a cold shoulder to him, why is Jon not more angry at and distrustful of women? Jon seems to get along well with females. He has a healthy, loving relationship with his younger sister, he has good memories of Sansa despite her catching Catelyn's anti-Jon vibes and qualifying him as a 'half-brother'; he later has a loving sexual relationship with Ygritte (brief as is), he helps Alys Karstark, and speaks with the very assertive Wildling 'princess' Val as an equal (not at all threatened by her).

I would suspect that Jon had had a loving governess or nurse who gave him the maternal affection that Cat would supposedly have died rather than bestow on him; but Jon never mentions a nurse or nanny who was a mother-substitute. I just don't get how a boy whose only maternal figure, the mother of his beloved siblings, shuts him out or snaps at him all the time, grows up without any resentment or fear or even distrust of women. Could Cat have actually given very young Jon some affection, and then grown cold to him? I think that would have messed him up; and there's no indication of that in Jon's memories either.

[straits]

Has no one read any Barthes? Authorial intent is meaningless.

So is reader opinion. Especially when it comes to shaping the story.

[Raksha the Demon]

If we are talking "author avatar" GRRM has plenty of other stories and characters to take into account. IIRC Martin has said the Turtle from Wild Cards is the most like him and his favorite all time character is Abner Marsh from Fevre Dream, I find neither one similar to Tyrion and IIRC he saidTyrion is just easy and fast to write same as Arya.

The Turtle has incredibly strong telekinetic powers that he cannot use unless he is inside the 'shell' of one of his favorite old cars, hence the nickname 'Turtle'. He is personally quiet and not socially assertive. There's another character in Wild Cards, who I think is also created by GRRM, a terrorist dwarf whose pseudonym is 'Gimli'; who is angry at everyone, bitter and sharp-tongued.

Abner Marsh is similar to Tyrion in that they are both very ugly males. I think Abner might have been short, though not a dwarf; but I'm not sure. However, Abner never felt sorry for himself; and was definitely common-born rather than of aristocratic origins. Abner also was not arrogant, nor an intellectual (though he might have been if he had the opportunity, he has a good mind and does appreciate poetry), as is Tyrion. Fevre Dream is my all-time favorite work by GRRM; and Abner is a beautifully written, very engaging hero.

[Florina Laufeyson]

the female authority figure of his childhood and early youth, hated him and at the very least constantly turned a cold shoulder to him, why is Jon not more angry at and distrustful of women?

Maybe because Jon's brain doesnt work that way? Jon understands why Catelyn treated him with coldness. Sure he was a bit bitter about it in the beginning, but he never seems to go out of his way to think things like "That Lady Catelyn, what a bitch..." He thinks things like "Its unfair im a bastard. Dammit all." Isnt it pretty much acceptable for someone like Cat to give her husband's bastard (or so she thinks) the cold shoulder? I dont recall Jon ever thinking Cat's treatment was unfair as much as him being a bastard was unfair. So hes not gonna project negative things on females simply because of that. (Not everything is so Freudian :P)

[straits]

Some thoughts about Jon growing up in Winterfell with Cat as the closest thing he had to a mother...

The Cat/Jon relationship of Cat ostracizing and distrusting and saying cruel things to Jon (admittedly when short on sleep and desperately worried for her comatose child) never made much sense to me in light of Jon's attitude towards women. If the only mother-figure in Jon's early life, the female authority figure of his childhood and early youth, hated him and at the very least constantly turned a cold shoulder to him, why is Jon not more angry at and distrustful of women? Jon seems to get along well with females. He has a healthy, loving relationship with his younger sister, he has good memories of Sansa despite her catching Catelyn's anti-Jon vibes and qualifying him as a 'half-brother'; he later has a loving sexual relationship with Ygritte (brief as is), he helps Alys Karstark, and speaks with the very assertive Wildling 'princess' Val as an equal (not at all threatened by her).

I would suspect that Jon had had a loving governess or nurse who gave him the maternal affection that Cat would supposedly have died rather than bestow on him; but Jon never mentions a nurse or nanny who was a mother-substitute. I just don't get how a boy whose only maternal figure, the mother of his beloved siblings, shuts him out or snaps at him all the time, grows up without any resentment or fear or even distrust of women. Could Cat have actually given very young Jon some affection, and then grown cold to him? I think that would have messed him up; and there's no indication of that in Jon's memories either.

Really good point about Jon! Maybe the presence of Arya (after she grew to about 3 or 4, presumably) helped him establish a positive view on girls and women?

[Florina Laufeyson]

Arya probably did have an effect on him like that. Because she doesnt ostracize him because he was a bastard. They got along and thought along the same lines, even finishing each other's sentences. That could be why a lot of the time when he sees a certain quality about a young lady, he thinks of Arya. (again, i dont think its in the Freudian sense. :ack: )

[DrunkSister]

I am actually quite shocked at how good GRRM is in pushing the readers to change their mind about a character when he puts his mind to it, Sansa, Jamie and Theon being the main examples.

*nod*

Sansa fits into a very defined (and very real) character type. The slightly spoiled, rich girl, tweeny still very much at the air head stage.

Ever been to a girls private school - Sansa and Jeyne are just the typical girls of the era - giggling in the corner and discussing boys, while also impressing the teachers. They are concius snob, discussing clothes others have and using terms like "povvo" For Austalians (and others) she is a little like Jaim'e in Chris Little's Summer heits high - or at leastlike one of her friends.

Arya is the girl in the top maths class who joins the greens and spends her weekends handing out leaflets to save the whales. Her friends are the nerdy loners while Sansa mixes it with the good looking jocks. These characters exist today.

I suspect that Martin had some run ins with the "cool" girls in his youth and Sansa is the outcome. Life and hardship mellow these "cool" girls so at 30 he may meet them again and no longer hate them

Yeees, I would agree that this is how they appear to be written, but seeing as they do not belong in a private school setting but in a medieval-fantasy setting, the whole reading of them has to take that into account.

I would suspect that Jon had had a loving governess or nurse who gave him the maternal affection that Cat would supposedly have died rather than bestow on him; but Jon never mentions a nurse or nanny who was a mother-substitute.

Old Nan? :leaving:

Surely he had a wet nurse, but he never remembers her, maybe he is blocking because she left? There are hints that Sansa wasn't all that cold to him, though they have yet to exchange any words on screen. There is a dearth of Winterfell women in the books, where is lady Cassel, or lady Poole? Or grandmothers...

But even if Catelyn didn't cuddle with him and tell him stories, for as long as she ignored him Jon would still be able to see the way she acts and that she is both strong and smart. They were together at every meal sitting at the same table. He also had an opportunity to watch a healthy relationship between Ned and Cat. He had a good model IMO.

[Kittykatknits]

I would suspect that Jon had had a loving governess or nurse who gave him the maternal affection that Cat would supposedly have died rather than bestow on him; but Jon never mentions a nurse or nanny who was a mother-substitute. I just don't get how a boy whose only maternal figure, the mother of his beloved siblings, shuts him out or snaps at him all the time, grows up without any resentment or fear or even distrust of women. Could Cat have actually given very young Jon some affection, and then grown cold to him? I think that would have messed him up; and there's no indication of that in Jon's memories either.

This isn't an answer to your question, more that you made me remember something. When Cat first learned about Jon, her initial reaction was to try to love him. It was not instant, hate, or dislike, or coldness. However, she found that she could not and did not know what to do at that point.

Maybe because Jon's brain doesnt work that way? Jon understands why Catelyn treated him with coldness. Sure he was a bit bitter about it in the beginning, but he never seems to go out of his way to think things like "That Lady Catelyn, what a bitch..." He thinks things like "Its unfair im a bastard. Dammit all." Isnt it pretty much acceptable for someone like Cat to give her husband's bastard (or so she thinks) the cold shoulder? I dont recall Jon ever thinking Cat's treatment was unfair as much as him being a bastard was unfair. So hes not gonna project negative things on females simply because of that. (Not everything is so Freudian :P)

From what we see in the text, the sense I get is that Cat could be seen to treat him rather well. Cersei (for what it's worth) thought of her as a mouse. In a Vicky chapter, we saw a bastard turned in to a household servant. The only examples we have "on screen" of training similar to Jon are Edric Storm and Walder Frey's batards.

[jarl the climber]

Out of curiousity, has Martin ever stated why he finds Cat and Sansa his least favorite? They just seem to be high ranking noblewoman with a strong self of self entitlement and in Cats case this extends to her children as well. Martin obviously has some nostalgia for this time period and whatnot but as modern western man he probaly could not conceive living in a society like this.

Looking at Sansa critically you could say that she is bascically being raise to be a trained brood mare. Of couse she is given some education to play her part and she also wants the magical court life but she really does not see the underside that her lifestyle is built on. The things Xaro said to Dany about the necessity for slaves could be extended to the fuedal system. So starting off Sansas spoiled, sheltered and a little naive maybe she can even get nasty about it.

Cat is irrational at times, snobbish but I do not find her unsympathetic. The worst thing I can say is that she doesn't question the way her world works or question her role in it. But accepting the world for what it is seems more like realism to me. Its the unsympathetic Lysa who wanted to buck things and marry the man she loved despite his lower station.

[MyLittleDirewolf]

I can't speak for My Little Direwolf but what I took her statement to mean, and I would agree with this if in fact this is what she meant, is that in our modern society we have become programmed into seeing only one way for a woman to make a strong feminist statement - which is by rejecting the idea of marriage altogether or wearing boys clothes and acting all tough and "kickass". My reaction to this is to ask why can't a woman remain feminine, like pretty things, and even want to get married, but still make a strong feminist statement by saying, for example, yes, I'll marry but on my terms. I made a comment in the Pawn to Player thread recently about this, though I was discussing my love for all Jane Austen's heroines. They are all feminine and comfortable with being women, and none of them are looking to take on manly pursuits or pick up a weapon and learn to fight for example, but they all refuse to settle for marrying just anyone. They hold on to their ideals and they exert their agency so that in the end they end up happily married to the man of their choice. I don't think they are any less "feminist" because they want to get married and in the end do just that.

Thank you Elba, that's what I meant but you wrote it much better.

I did not mean at all that GRRM wrote Tyrion and Arya to be politically correct, or that readers like them because of PC-ness. What I meant was that we take our modern day notions with us into the story, and it contributes to readers rooting for them. Everyone loves an underdog, an outsider, someone who has to overcome. When we meet Tyrion and Arya, they are outsiders. They both feel they don't fit in to their family (not Arya so much, but she doesn't feel as accepted by her mother), their roles, their stations in life. Sansa and Cat OTOH, are just fine in their roles, so they don't have that immediate root-for-them-to-overcome thing going on.

Getting back to the feminine aspect of this, how many times do we see complaints about the princess movies and how girls shouldn't aspire to that old trope, yada yada? Well, Sansa basically is aspiring to be a princess, it's what's expected of her and she's happy. When it all turns to shit is when her character starts to have some growth and she comes into her own. At least in my opinion.

[Florina Laufeyson]

PC-ness.

I dont see much political correctness in Tyrion or Arya. Especially the former! O_O

[MyLittleDirewolf]

I dont see much political correctness in Tyrion or Arya. Especially the former! O_O

I was referring back to this post from WoW:

Am I understanding you properly, are you saying that Martin gives too much in to political correctness by liking Arya and Tyrion too much? That he has Invented these characters out of fear for being seen as politically incorrect, with all those Lords and Ladies, so he needed the "physically challenged" cripple in the story?

[Lion of Judah]

We can't avoid reader interpretation as well, in truth it is more difficult for me to understand Catelyn's actions because I'm viewing them through the eyes of a man. For this reason I am always hard pressed to take a hard line stance against her, to put it simpler I have no idea what it means to be a parent or mother. I can't relate to Cat's rational when reading her chapters so I judge her actions by face value disregarding anything else. That is why I love this board though, I can toss out an argument and it can get verified or torn apart. At the end however I have a deeper, better understanding for the text. For me a large part of my sympathetic approach is understanding the motives behind a characters actions. Not necessarily judging the results, because GRRM does not give us the outcome we expect ever, just judging the motives. Which is why I love Dany, her results suck but her motives are pure IMO. Plus I want a female character to come out on top in all this, so sue me. :P

[DrunkSister]

Getting back to the feminine aspect of this, how many times do we see complaints about the princess movies and how girls shouldn't aspire to that old trope, yada yada? Well, Sansa basically is aspiring to be a princess, it's what's expected of her and she's happy. When it all turns to shit is when her character starts to have some growth and she comes into her own. At least in my opinion.

The problem is that today girls can't really be princesses, while Sansa basically is one. And as a wife of a lord, she would be expected to run a whole castle, see that it is supplied, care for education of girls and boys under their roof, about religion and learning, to be patron of art, possibly a regent, possibly defend the castle or realm from bandits/armies.

Girls who want to be princess today are not concerned with these things. It is more about looking pretty. So this is reading into Sansa something that is modern and not really in the text IMO. Yes, she is supposed to be decorative, no that is not all of it.

As far as feminine pursuits are concerned, they are IMO very underrepresented in ASOIAF,. The role women would play in society wasn't merely being powerless and a broodmare. Women were midwifes, healers, cooks in charge of a lot of food production and preparation (from planting a garden to feeding the pigs, to the table), almost all cloth production, on top of raising children and educating them. And then there was all the men's work whenever men were not present (yes, even fighting).

But a lot of it simply isn't done any more (who grinds the flour themselves, or makes yeast, or bakes bread every day, on top of making butter, cheese, milking cows...) so we just don't get how important it was for mere survival of the community. So we assume that feminine characters do nothing at all important. That is why I loved the Prologue to ADWD, Thistle is so awesome in her competence, she is a non fighter, and old, a completely ordinary grandma who kicks Varamyr out of herself all the same.

Would all this misunderstanding of the setting be less if GRRM took some time to illustrate feminine pursuits as important at the world-building stage?

[Castel]

As far as feminine pursuits are concerned, they are IMO very underrepresented in ASOIAF,. The role women would play in society wasn't merely being powerless and a broodmare. Women were midwifes, healers, cooks in charge of a lot of food production and preparation (from planting a garden to feeding the pigs, to the table), almost all cloth production, on top of raising children and educating them. And then there was all the men's work whenever men were not present (yes, even fighting).

But a lot of it simply isn't done any more (who grinds the flour themselves, or makes yeast, or bakes bread every day, on top of making butter, cheese, milking cows...) so we just don't get how important it was for mere survival of the community. So we assume that feminine characters do nothing at all important. That is why I loved the Prologue to ADWD, Thistle is so awesome in her competence, she is a non fighter, and old, a completely ordinary grandma who kicks Varamyr out of herself all the same.

This is not just feminine concerns being ignored, it's lower-class concerns. The things you mention are for the peasant women to do. Noble women probably had other things to do besides being midwives and healers. I mean, we don't see the minutia of common living for either sex. Off the top of my head I'd say that the noblewomen would be more into charity, supporting the arts and other such things, menial labour wasn't on the table.

[Florina Laufeyson]

This is not just feminine concerns being ignored, it's lower-class concerns. The things you mention are for the peasant women to do. Noble women probably had other things to do besides being midwives and healers. I mean, we don't see the minutia of common living for either sex. Off the top of my head I'd say that the noblewomen would be more into charity, supporting the arts and other such things, menial labour wasn't on the table.

Theres that, but theres also that if you go into too much detail about junk like that, your readers will get bored. They will say junk like "I dont care about what Cat does everyday at Winterfell, GET TO THE STORY AND THE ACTION!" ya know? Some of us would find it interesting to know what a highborn lady's day to day life would be like, but the majority of readers wouldnt really give a snot.