Where Boars Glow Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 They are. A knight can make knights and they've all been knighted.A knight is a trained Calvary soldier...with armor, a horse, usually land given by a lord in order to maintain these implements of war. With the exception of the undead Mr Sir Dondarian, The BWB are mainly conscripted foot soldiers who have gone rouge and bandit. I think the cool irony here is that these peasants...who aren't knights are the more noble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danm_999 Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Then please tell me what good will EVER come out of Stannis rule.Stability.The charismatic people in the series (Daenerys, Robert, Renly), although you'd like to have a beer with them, tend to get obscene amounts of people killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Then please tell me what good will EVER come out of Stannis rule.You'll never be cold again. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lux in Tenebris Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 A fair point. I'm still musing over switching to Daenarys. The rabid Stannis fan crys in my heart "Treason! Treason!". But I do appreciate that he watched her to make sure she was good and is being honest about how shit her father was.Err two kings died on his watch. I'll admit there's little he could have done for Aerys. But he didn't really do well protecting Robert. Both in the sense of diving on the Boar and in trying to protect him from his enemies at court.Barristan was never much for the scheming at court, he was supposed to physically protect Robert. Robert did not allow him to do that when he commanded him to stand aside. The KG must obey their king.Barristan has many faults, I can't count Robert's death as one of them.His commitment to duty over honor is why Rhaegar never trusted him like he did the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Lea Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Knights are trained soldiers who kill for position and money. Not Lancelot.Then Barristan shouldn't pretend he is, should he?He just supported Ned in saying that they shouldn't assassinate Dany. If Ned hadn't been there, I don't see him speaking up.Ned also promptly decided to give up his position as Hand. Barristan remained quiet.That's fair enough about Barristan.What's so bad about the BwB though?Oh well that's something I discussed at some length in a past Sansa thread, I can PM you the link if you want, I'm going out in like 5 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanon Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Then please tell me what good will EVER come out of Stannis rule.Religious fanaticism and burning of infidels. Whoring will also be made illegal, it will be the perfect kingdom :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurkhal Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 It would be interesting to know how much influence Ser Barristan had as LC over who was allowed to join the KG, and his thoughts about his new brothers. I can well imagine that between Jon Arryn, Robert/Cersei and possibly Ned he didnt have much to say or atleast didnt speak up. Can he be blamed for the new KG which replaced Aerys fabled seven? Considering that so many positions needed to be filled its not like there were many great candidates around. Also we dont know about the loyalty of Robert's KG during the first years. I wouldnt be surprised if they were indeed loyal at first but some of them later on shifting their loyalty to Cersei. Blount is big boned and only becomes overweight later in the books, I can imagine that during the Rebellion he was in better shape. He seems to be a strong man, he must have been more formidable at the time (if never truly great, as Jaime says). I am not sure Barristan is the best suited as LC, since he does seem to be afraid of conflicts not involving swords (a trait he shares with Robert).I don't think that Barristan had much influence at all and since he's an obedient man I doubt he ever said anything. Most of the knights put forward were probably names he had never heard before and so couldn't know how well they would carry the white.And in regards to loyalty I never see how the Kingsguard ever falters in loyalty to Robert. They obey him without question and then obeys his son, which Eddard Stark publically confess is the real king, without a doubt or hesitation. I'm not actually sure what Barristan's great grevience with them is really about considering that Aerys fable, and passive, kingsguard stood by and watched a whole load of crap conducted by that king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Then please tell me what good will EVER come out of Stannis rule.Justice. Stability. Responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Where Boars Glow Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Then Barristan shouldn't pretend he is, should he?Ned also promptly decided to give up his position as Hand. Barristan remained quiet.Oh well that's something I discussed at some length in a past Sansa thread, I can PM you the link if you want, I'm going out in like 5 minutes.In what way does Selmy ever pretend to not be a soldier? I think he is consistant on that point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Pope Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Justice. Stability. Responsibility. His kind of justice would put half the realm behind bars and the rest out of business, a fine recepie for stability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Lea Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 In what way does Selmy ever pretend to not be a soldier? I think he is consistant on that point?A soldier? He thinks he's a true knight, full of honour and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danm_999 Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 His kind of justice would put half the realm behind bars and the rest out of business, a fine recepie for stability.Stannis would imprison half the realm and destroy the livelihood of the remainder?Are you sure this isn't an exaggeration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 His kind of justice would put half the realm behind bars and the rest out of business, a fine recepie for stability.Really? What evidence do you have for this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfell Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 I'm inclined to make allowances for the fact that Selmy comes from a society where honouring vows and obedience to your lord are considered amongst the highest virtues, and where if given the choice between your morals and your orders, you're probably expected to swallow your morals. To them that is honour, at least after a fashion. You're supposed to know your place and offer advice to your "superiors" when asked but no more than that, especially in the Kingsguard.So yeah, I can see why he only has his epiphany after his sense of his position in the world is challenged by being expelled from the KG, although I might not go so far as to forgive him for his prolonged inaction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Where Boars Glow Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 A soldier? He thinks he's a true knight, full of honour and all that.No he thinks he is a knight. Other people see his actions and hold him in high esteem as a result of them. I tend to agree with those people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Where Boars Glow Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Do you have a textual example of him ever talking about what a great knight he is? So full of rightousness and honor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Independent George Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Barristan is not a bad man, certainly. But he lacks that moral compass we see in characters like Ned Stark and Davos Seaworth, who are willing to do what they believe is right even if it costs them everything.And yet Ned admires him for the very thing you're holding against him.The entire series is about the conflict between honor, morality, and duty; I think those so quick to condemn him for holding to his duty ignore the consequences of doing otherwise. Is it really better if the Kingsguard get to act as the final arbiter of morality, to judge their kings? At what point do they become the rulers instead of the servants? I think people tend to be far too quick to discard the law in service of 'the greater good', and it tends to lead to far worse consequences down the road. WILLIAM ROPER: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!SIR THOMAS MORE: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?ROPER: I’d cut down every law in England to do that!MORE: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned ’round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man’s laws, not God’s! And if you cut them down, and you’re just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I’d give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety’s sake! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 A soldier? He thinks he's a true knight, full of honour and all that.Have you read Barristan's POV in ADWD? We see in his POV that he is a man who is trying to do the best he can in a world where it is nearly impossible to know what the right and honorable thing is. He even decides not to Knight his squires because he does not want them to be touched by the his potential dishonor. He is one of the few characters who truly cares about the common people and especially the children and I do not know how somebody can read his POV and come away with a negative attitute towards him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of Swords Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Stability.The charismatic people in the series (Daenerys, Robert, Renly), although you'd like to have a beer with them, tend to get obscene amounts of people killed.I can understand why you think that, and I agree. But as long his chosen religion is intolerant, I doubt there will be much stability, at least for a long while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 I can understand why you think that, and I agree. But as long his chosen religion is intolerant, I doubt there will be much stability, at least for a long while.Yet his is the only army made up of followers of the Seven, the Old Gods and R'hllor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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