Stark Warging - DId Ned, his brothers and Father know

[Dr. Pepper]

I wonder about that. Does it mean good King Robb Stark had 20+ skinchangers in his army?

Very possible. Probably likely. Unsure if those 20+ would have been aware of their gift or if they would have been ashamed of it or something like that. Skinchanging appears to be a feared thing. For example, Janos Slynt tries to rile people up against Jon by calling him a warg. Several characters make derogatory comments about Robb.

Summer is Ending probably has the quote handy, but I think I also recall Bloodraven telling Bran it's in the blood but also that it must be taught and nurtured. Or something to that effect. Before Jojen arrived, Bran really didn't understand what was going on. Jon didn't understand and I think Arya may not understand. An untrained skinchanger who has never been taught what a skinchanger is would likely be very confused and deny what's happening.

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

you could argue that. But bloodraven was there before the dragons were born. Explain his magical presence.

I'm not sure it was the Dragons the brought the magic. Granted something did, but I think the magic brought the dragons to Dany was much as the wolves to the Starks.

[Buried Treasure]

The kind of magic the dragons brought back (or rather strengthened) is fire magic. That was the magic of the firecharmer in the street Quaithe pointed out and that the pyromancers use. It wasn't entirely gone - Mel learnt her skills whilst there were no dragons - but it was weaker. Other kinds of magic weren't affected by the presence of dragons.

[Lady of Long Lake]

I don't think Ned and his brother knew they had the ability. There would be reverence or interest of the direwolves and Ned's first instinct was to put them to death. Benjen doesn't show any unusual interest in the pups when he was home for the King's visit so I don't think he knew either.

[Lord Davos Seaworth]

I think the dragons hatching was more of a metaphor than anything else. I don't think they directly made all the "magic" stronger, we just happen to see it pop up more after the first book. A lot people seem to forget about the Wights, which appear in the prologue!

[Dont Call me Bastard]

I think that at the time that dragons left the world magic began a long slow proccess of weakening and leaving the worls although it never fully left and upon there hatching back into the world it then began a resurgence. Maybe it only effected fire magic but i kinda think it had an impact on all magic. I agree with many that whether Ned or other Stark ancestors also had the ability is unknown to all except GRRM unless he feels like letting the rest of us know but I think it is pretty likely although it probably was dormant or misunderstood for many if they did. In a world where people didn't really believe in wargs much anymore and thought of them more as something out of a story it would be easy not to recognize the ability. Like a post earlier mentioned it is a skill that does require some nurtureing as Vallymyr six skins had and Bran has been getting from Jojen and then Bloodraven. Also I don't think it is coincidence that Bran and Arya both seemed to have there abilities start to come to like after the dragons hatched and Sansa although GRRM said she has the ability had the poor luck of Lady being put down before the Dragons were born. While skinchanging isn't completely dependent on the presence of dragons in the world it does appear to heighten it allowing those with the ability an easier time noticing it and likely greater overall ability with it.

[Lady of Dragonstone]

This made me think back to descriptions of both Brandon and lyanna. They were both well known through out the north as amazing horseback riders. Iirc lyanna was referred to as half horse sometimes. Im not saying there was full on warging but maybe since they lacked the direwolves, they developed a similar bond with their pets.

I know it seems on the crackpot side but it is a thought.

This is what I thought of when I read the title of this thread, in relation to Lyanna. I don't think that Ned or Benjen were wargs for the abovementioned reasons. I am sure there are more wargs out there, but since it's such a shamed practice, I don't think we will be seeing any wargs come out of the closet anytime soon! His father might have known, but we really don't know much about Brandon Stark. Ned seemed quite quick to dismiss much and more of Old Nan's tales, even though some of the elements of her tales were true. I always wondered if he was doing it for the children, or if he actually believed that wights/greenseers/etc. did not exist anymore. Can't retrieve actual quotes at the moment. One often acquires parenting skills/moves from one's own parents.... so I mostly base Brandon's character from that.

I think the dragons hatching was more of a metaphor than anything else. I don't think they directly made all the "magic" stronger, we just happen to see it pop up more after the first book. A lot people seem to forget about the Wights, which appear in the prologue!

Tend to disagree. Yes, there were wights, and now there are a great deal many more of them -- along with more wargs -- and a couple greenseers as well. ;) I just got finished watching the last episode of season two, where Pyat Pree tells Dany that their magic at HoU is stronger now that there are dragons. Was that in the book, or am I dreaming? I seem to recall someone related to magic or sorcery saying that magic had gotten stronger. Don't have access to my books at the moment, apologies!

[franko99]

This is what I thought of when I read the title of this thread, in relation to Lyanna. I don't think that Ned or Benjen were wargs for the abovementioned reasons. I am sure there are more wargs out there, but since it's such a shamed practice, I don't think we will be seeing any wargs come out of the closet anytime soon! His father might have known, but we really don't know much about Brandon Stark. Ned seemed quite quick to dismiss much and more of Old Nan's tales, even though some of the elements of her tales were true. I always wondered if he was doing it for the children, or if he actually believed that wights/greenseers/etc. did not exist anymore. Can't retrieve actual quotes at the moment. One often acquires parenting skills/moves from one's own parents.... so I mostly base Brandon's character from that.

Tend to disagree. Yes, there were wights, and now there are a great deal many more of them -- along with more wargs -- and a couple greenseers as well. ;) I just got finished watching the last episode of season two, where Pyat Pree tells Dany that their magic at HoU is stronger now that there are dragons. Was that in the book, or am I dreaming? I seem to recall someone related to magic or sorcery saying that magic had gotten stronger. Don't have access to my books at the moment, apologies!

Quaithe, the pyromancers (alchemist), Qhorin Halfhand, many characters mention throught the books that magic is gotten stonger (or old power coming again, which is the same) But is not the hatching of dragons what brings the magic back to it's full powers, what it is, we don't know, but I igree with the theory that magic is cyclical

[jblair]

I donno, sounds to me like magic was pretty dormant. Pyromancers and maesters had lots of spells that didn't work, that maybe never worked. When they start working again, nobody's more surprised then the so-called "mages."

No, the spells still worked, just not as well. Thoros had his flaming sword, pyromancers were still making (less effective) firebombs, glass candles were working etc.

Magic certainly had reached low-ebb, and great feats (dragon-hatching, resurrection, wight production) could not be performed. But then, Bloodraven was holed up in an epicenter of magic, so even with lessened efficacy the magic was enough to draw upon.

[Summer is Ending]

No, the spells still worked, just not as well. Thoros had his flaming sword, pyromancers were still making (less effective) firebombs, glass candles were working etc.

Magic certainly had reached low-ebb, and great feats (dragon-hatching, resurrection, wight production) could not be performed. But then, Bloodraven was holed up in an epicenter of magic, so even with lessened efficacy the magic was enough to draw upon.

Thoros used wildfire on his swords. There was no magic to them.

Tyrion remembered the red priest Thoros of Myr and his flaming sword. Even a thin coating of wildfire could burn for an hour. Thoros always needed a new sword after a melee,

[tenchi]

when Bloodraven talks about the skinchangers being 1 in 1000 that could be a generalization based upon which family your line is connected to, because we know the old kings in the north were depicted with direwolves and the family still holds them as their sigil we can assume that in the Stark family being a non-warg is the exception not the norm. Though we don't have definitive proof we can assume that both Brandon and Lyanna were wargs based not only upon their horseback skills but also the phrase Ned used the describe his elder brother "a touch of wolf blood" when he was talking to Bran.

Besides Bloodraven being that his mother his a Blackwood and just as much a first man as any Stark, the House of Mormont is describe as being skinchangers. I do not remeber which one said it but she was telling someone how they go out and become Bears to mate. So we see that warging is more a first man trait then any-other so the dragons would have no effect on the warging abilities. Seeing as the new Dunk and Egg story is coming out some maybe we will see if any of the she-wolves is a warg and that can shine some light on the interim years between the king who knelt and the young wolf. Maybe Craigen Stark the one who fought the dragon knight was a warg.

[Lion of Judah]

I doubt they were wargs, if it wasn't for the wolves the current Stark children wouldn't be any different from any other child. As it turns out they are wargs and the only ones that know or have an idea are Bran and Jon.

[Black Wolf Smith]

IMO would be that there hasn't been a Stark with the power( or knew they had it at least) in 200+ years. They may have been stories like Old Nan's that were past down, but as many generations have gone by, it would have become more like a story that kids were told or a close guarded sercet that was passed down from Lord to heir. In either case it was likely lost (along with other important info) when all the adult males Starks died 100 years ago.

[jblair]

Thoros used wildfire on his swords. There was no magic to them.

Tyrion remembered the red priest Thoros of Myr and his flaming sword. Even a thin coating of wildfire could burn for an hour. Thoros always needed a new sword after a melee,

I'm aware of that. Wildfire is made via magic. Hallyne is able to make far more wildfire for Tyrion than expected because the Alchemists' spellpower had ramped up.

[RumHam]

I always thought all six Stark kids were wargs but it had to be activated in each one. The crow does it for Bran, and later Bran does it for Jon. I don't think Robb was ever warging, but clearly he still had that strong mental connection with Greywind

[Ludd]

Those around Robb were aware of the special relation with his wolf anf Robb seemed to sense things through GW. Robb was accused of being a warg. Seems as if he either already was warging or getting very close. He probably did NOT know what it was

[Clariana]

I just don't see anything suggesting that Ned (or Rickard, Brandon, Benjen or Lyanna) had the gift, latent or not. I wouldn't base it on "well the kids have it, Ned must have too." That's kind of flimsy. I do think it's possible that more Starks had it earlier on, before the Andals arrived and the blood of the First Men started getting diluted. I think that might easily explain why some of the kings have direwolf statues with them in the crypts. But again, I think it's a big leap, without basis, to assume that Ned and his siblings would have had it.

And Jon is just as much a "Stark," blood-wise, as his cousins.

Well when Meera tells the tale of the knight of the smiling tree to Bran it is very clear that the Howlands see the Starks as wolves, they are all described as such. Bran doesn't balk at the description, unsurprisingly, it could be more than a simple metaphore, like the horse bonding suggestion, too.

Finally, I would be extremely unsurprised if in the heat of battle Robb did not sometimes, if only involuntarily, warg Grey Wind, perhaps that is one of the reasons for his exceptional prowess? He can be in places via GW where he is not physically present.

Yeah, and warging would be of great advantage to Benjen as head ranger of the BB.

[family duty Hodor]

I wonder about that. Does it mean good King Robb Stark had 20+ skinchangers in his army?

good point :P I guess, not everyone realizes they have the ability

[Old Man Aegon]

Finally, I would be extremely unsurprised if in the heat of battle Robb did not sometimes, if only involuntarily, warg Grey Wind, perhaps that is one of the reasons for his exceptional prowess? He can be in places via GW where he is not physically present.

That would explain why Robb doesnt want Greywind too close to people anymore. Not just because he scared Jeyne but Robb himself had experienced what it felt like to rip a mans throat out and that scared him.

[authgoe]

I think the point is definetly not in magic running in the family trees (no pun intended about weirwoods). There are certain characters that appear to have been "chosen" to develop certain abilities, even if only at specific times or events, that will make the small but essential difference in the grand scheme of things, like the Stark children and Dany. Ned, Brandon, Lyanna, Viserys, etc are not essential characters nor will they play a major part in the light vs. darkness that is escalating in the north, even if they played an important part in the political drama of the story.