Was Tywin Lannister a little TOO Perfect?

[Bear Island Bruiser]

I am compelled to ask, is this a joke? Because you lost right around the time you called him an effective father and my confusion only grow when you claimed he had a great love for the Lannister family and that he did really well raising Tyrion.

Think you have to see it as a love for House Lannister and the desire for them to be strong. The way I read his character he really does love his children (inclduign Tyrion) and the Lannister family he just wants the best for them. Look at the way he deals with his children

Cersei - Gets her made Queen of all Westeros. Knows that in non-Dorne Westeros it's hard for a woman to be powerful without a man to be her catspaw. Look at how the QoT uses Mace.

Jamie - Wants the best for him. Kept away from Cersei and training to be the next Lord of Casterly Rock. Just a damn shame the kids an idiot in love.

Tyrion - OK has a love/hate relationship with him because of his dwarfism and how he 'killed' the one person Tywin loved the most. In the end he respects his abilities (wouldn't have made him Hand otherwise) but can't accept him acting the fool all the time.

The joint part of this is that Tywin does what he thinks is best for all of them and tries to force it through. They, like most kids, try and buck his authority.

His love for the family is shown in everything Tywin does. His every move is to strengthen House Lannister, both in power and prestige. Look at how driven he is to get a Valaryan steel sword. In order to remove the shame on his House for not having one.

[maesterted]

What Tywin was in his core was an opportunist. At his first try as hand of the king he took the opportunity to prove himself to the king. The Reynes and Tarbecks gave him the opportunity to prove that he wasn't the pushover his father was. The WOT5K he took his opportunities and thats why he won. However he has missed opportunities throughout his life and the biggie is Tyrion. We hear from Genna that Tyrion was like Tywin so he would have the best chance of all his children to further the Lannister name in the same way as Tywin has done given the chance. Comparing him to another opportunist like Roose in my opinion with the same power as Tywin he would have achieved the same ends given the opportunities. So is he smart? Yes some of the opportunities he took i didn't even know where there (Red Wedding). But is he the perfect opportunist? No he has missed a some. A very vital one i would add.

[Gurkhal]

None of Tywin's children are remotely competent as rulers except Tyrion whom Tyrwin did nothing to teach hm anything except low self worth and how to be a jerk. Jaime is mediocre at best when it comes to politics and governing and the less said about Cersei, the better. I see no reason to think he'd have done better with Tommen.

Since Cersei was his heir after Jaime joined the KG (2-3 years before her marriage), second in line before this (he never counted Tyrion), not teaching her anything about ruling was just dumb.

I think you are fairly wrong in this. Cersei is a loose cannon, no doubt, but both Jaime and Tyrions are successful enough. Jaime lead his army successful enough, not saying his perfect but good enough for most as his victories over the Riverlords and his mobbing up operations in the Riverlands show. Also I would say that he's leading the Kingsguard pretty well.

In regards to Tyrion he entered the vipers nest that's King's Landing and danced well with masters like Varys and Littlefinger, as well as almost coming to blows with Cersei, and still got shit done and could hold of Stannis long enough for Tywin and Mace to come and save the day.

[TheMaimedKnight]

Tywin gets killed by his son whom he has obviously neglected and we're arguing on whether he's TOO perfect or not?

[Frey Pie]

Think you have to see it as a love for House Lannister and the desire for them to be strong. The way I read his character he really does love his children (inclduign Tyrion) and the Lannister family he just wants the best for them. Look at the way he deals with his children

Cersei - Gets her made Queen of all Westeros. Knows that in non-Dorne Westeros it's hard for a woman to be powerful without a man to be her catspaw. Look at how the QoT uses Mace.

Jamie - Wants the best for him. Kept away from Cersei and training to be the next Lord of Casterly Rock. Just a damn shame the kids an idiot in love.

Tyrion - OK has a love/hate relationship with him because of his dwarfism and how he 'killed' the one person Tywin loved the most. In the end he respects his abilities (wouldn't have made him Hand otherwise) but can't accept him acting the fool all the time.

The joint part of this is that Tywin does what he thinks is best for all of them and tries to force it through. They, like most kids, try and buck his authority.

His love for the family is shown in everything Tywin does. His every move is to strengthen House Lannister, both in power and prestige. Look at how driven he is to get a Valaryan steel sword. In order to remove the shame on his House for not having one.

Really? Just look at how Tywins children see him and i think youll see he wasnt the greatest father. The only one who actually liked him was Cersei, and shes batshit insane. In any case, she only loves her fathers prestige. Tywin did not respect Tyrions abilities. He purposely put him in the place he was most likely to die on the GF. And dont even try to say thats because he respected Tyrions battle prowess

Tywin cares for House Lannister but not his kids. Compare him to Ned for a moment. Now Tywin clearly doesnt understand Jaime. Same could be said for Ned and Arya, even though theres the difference in age and sexes to account for there. Tywin must have known Cersei was in an abusive, unhappy relationship. What does he do? Nothing. Now Ned learns after a time that Joff is a monster. He plans to take Sansa away and make a better match for her, even though he risks the wrath of the King and will never find a better politcal or economical match for his House. This is where the difference is-Ned cares for his kids because he knows there his House, Tywin cares for his House and its image but not for his kids

As for the OP-Tywins is sooooooooooo far away from perfect i dont even no where to begin

[Frey Pie]

I think you are fairly wrong in this. Cersei is a loose cannon, no doubt, but both Jaime and Tyrions are successful enough. Jaime lead his army successful enough, not saying his perfect but good enough for most as his victories over the Riverlords and his mobbing up operations in the Riverlands show. Also I would say that he's leading the Kingsguard pretty well.

In regards to Tyrion he entered the vipers nest that's King's Landing and danced well with masters like Varys and Littlefinger, as well as almost coming to blows with Cersei, and still got shit done and could hold of Stannis long enough for Tywin and Mace to come and save the day.

I agree Jaime is not so bad but untested really politically. Hes House Lannisters only hope IMO, unless one of the lesser Lannisters like Daven can pick up. Tyrion did extremely well, but i think its only fair to note that he did receive the help of both Varys and LF during his reign as Hand. How would he have faired had they opposed him?

[David Selig]

Think you have to see it as a love for House Lannister and the desire for them to be strong. The way I read his character he really does love his children (inclduign Tyrion) and the Lannister family he just wants the best for them. Look at the way he deals with his children

Cersei - Gets her made Queen of all Westeros. Knows that in non-Dorne Westeros it's hard for a woman to be powerful without a man to be her catspaw. Look at how the QoT uses Mace.

Jamie - Wants the best for him. Kept away from Cersei and training to be the next Lord of Casterly Rock. Just a damn shame the kids an idiot in love.

Tyrion - OK has a love/hate relationship with him because of his dwarfism and how he 'killed' the one person Tywin loved the most. In the end he respects his abilities (wouldn't have made him Hand otherwise) but can't accept him acting the fool all the time.

The joint part of this is that Tywin does what he thinks is best for all of them and tries to force it through. They, like most kids, try and buck his authority.

His love for the family is shown in everything Tywin does. His every move is to strengthen House Lannister, both in power and prestige. Look at how driven he is to get a Valaryan steel sword. In order to remove the shame on his House for not having one.

Tywin didn't give a damn about the happiness of his children. All he ever cared about is his personal power and the reputation of his House. If this meant making his children unhappy, so be it. He'd rather have Cersei suffer in a terrible marriage than lose a bit of a political capital. He chose to destroy forever Tyrion's feeling of self-worth and mess up his psyche with the way he dealt with Tysha just to avoid some bad PR. He didn't care that Jaime was happier as a Lord Commander of the KG, he demanded of him to leave it and when he was denied, he disowned Jaime.

[Where Boars Glow]

Tywin didn't gave a damn about the happiness of his children. All he ever cared about is his personal power and the reputation of his House. If this meant making his children unhappy, so be it. He'd rather have Cersei suffer in a terrible marriage than lose a bit of a political capital. He chose to destroy forever Tyrion's feeling of self-worth and mess up his psyche with the way he dealt with Tysha just to avoid some bad PR. He didn't care that Jaime was happier as a Lord Commander of the KG, he demanded of him to leave it and when he was denied, he disowned Jaime.

Tywin didn't care about happiness in general. He cared about family duty. He operated under the impression this IS what should make his family happy.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

Tywin didn't give a damn about the happiness of his children. All he ever cared about is his personal power and the reputation of his House. If this meant making his children unhappy, so be it. He'd rather have Cersei suffer in a terrible marriage than lose a bit of a political capital. He chose to destroy forever Tyrion's feeling of self-worth and mess up his psyche with the way he dealt with Tysha just to avoid some bad PR. He didn't care that Jaime was happier as a Lord Commander of the KG, he demanded of him to leave it and when he was denied, he disowned Jaime.

Maybe not their happiness but certainly did care about their success. I see Tywin as the ultimate 'I know what's best for you' kind of father. He'll make sure they do as they're told because he knows what's right for them (well in his mind anyway). Doesn't mean he doesn't love them.

Tywin is a flawed character, as are an awful lot of people in the book. I mean take a look at Robb. In general a 'good' character but he's also one that's willing to see his sisters imprisoned and forgets his responsibility to his people. However this kind of painting him as the worst thing since unsliced bread is forgetting first his motivations and second his background.

[Miryana]

In short, from a weak but temporary situation, Tywin led House Lannister to a situation where every single misstep will result in it's extermination, everybody is interested in that misstep and the Lannisters are making do without strength of their own. He caused the downfall of House Lannister inside the next 20 years. No, he is in no way too perfect.

I agree. As was pointed out, he wasn't just feared, he was hated. His victories came through such bloody and outrageous means that they weren't just successes, they were also risks in the long term. Tywin gave people near and far plenty of reason to work for his destruction and not accept a state of things in which House Lannister is on top. The utterly unnecessary brutality with which he handled Tyrion's first marriage was the direct cause of his death: his most politically competent child, alternatively neglected and emotionally abused throughout his whole life, murdered his own father and turned his intelligence to taking the Rock (which Tywin never wanted him to have) and destroying the other Lannisters. The sack of King's Landing and the Red Wedding have made Dorne, the North and the Targaryens his house's sworn enemies. Some, like Dany, might show mercy to his innocent grandchildren; the Sand Snakes and Connington want to kill even the children.

Tywin inherited a weak legacy from Tytos. His own children inherited a very unstable legacy from him - the moment there's blood in the water, the sharks start to gather. In a feudal setting, as TV Tywin says, it's not just about you but your name, what you leave to your house when you're gone. And there, it's like Tywin didn't even try to succeed. Tyrion was ignored and then given the North via his marriage to a hostage. Oh, you're sending him to govern a land full of people whose kin were butchered at the Red Wedding, that's going to work out just fine (since Tywin doesn't have a moral problem with war crimes that are atrocities even by Westerosi standards, he seems to have something of a blind spot when it comes to how they can inspire fury and determination in the victims). If Tyrion had gone North, Manderly would have had a chance to try Lannister pie. Jaime, well, is he Tywin's heir or not? Tywin doesn't sort it out, and when he does bring it up Jaime defies him. Good job! That leaves Cersei, untrained and shoved aside. Tywin wants to marry her off, which would also mean sending her away from her present powerbase at court, but if he breaks his neck falling from a horse, congratulations, the Tyrells have Joffrey (actually Tommen, since they manage to go behind his back and get away with murdering the psychotic grandson) and don't plan to let go.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

Tywin didn't give a damn about the happiness of his children. All he ever cared about is his personal power and the reputation of his House. If this meant making his children unhappy, so be it. He'd rather have Cersei suffer in a terrible marriage than lose a bit of a political capital. He chose to destroy forever Tyrion's feeling of self-worth and mess up his psyche with the way he dealt with Tysha just to avoid some bad PR. He didn't care that Jaime was happier as a Lord Commander of the KG, he demanded of him to leave it and when he was denied, he disowned Jaime.

To take each incident in context:-

Tyrion marries Tysha - Tywin knows Tyrion is going to have a tough enough time as it is. Because of the way he's born he's not going to become a great warrior and as he's the second son he's not going to inherit the faimly seat. So being a great administrator isn't really open to him. So the normal Westerosi career tracks would be either maester (bit low down the respect ladder and not really suitable for him) or lord of a minor house through marriage. Marrying a commoner shuts off even that to him. So she needs to be got rid of and Tyrion needs a lesson to keep him in line. OK it's brutal and cruel but it works.

Jamie becoming KG - moves him to being a hostage under Aerys and also stops him being a greatlord. Equally removes the best candidate (at least in Tywins eyes) for a successor. Plus when Jamie becomes Lord Commander of the KG he's back in the toxic influence of Cersei. Tywin clearly knows about the incest and the best way to deal with it is to simply keep them apart. When Jamie refuses he needs a lesson to tell him whats right.

[Kittykatknits]

Tywin didn't give a damn about the happiness of his children. All he ever cared about is his personal power and the reputation of his House. If this meant making his children unhappy, so be it. He'd rather have Cersei suffer in a terrible marriage than lose a bit of a political capital. He chose to destroy forever Tyrion's feeling of self-worth and mess up his psyche with the way he dealt with Tysha just to avoid some bad PR. He didn't care that Jaime was happier as a Lord Commander of the KG, he demanded of him to leave it and when he was denied, he disowned Jaime.

I agree. When it came to his children, Tywin's act look to have bought him short-term sucess. He viewed the tree of them as tools to increase Lannister power and prestige, an approach that was ultimately damaging to all three of them. Yet, look what happened after his death. Everything Tywin sought to build up is falling apart and in the end, all of his achievements aren't much at all. Cersei went through the WoS which would have damanged the family name, Jaime has pretty much made the decision to choose the KG over family, and Tyrion is on the run as a kinslayer and kingslayer.

[Where Boars Glow]

I agree. When it came to his children, Tywin's act look to have bought him short-term sucess. He viewed the tree of them as tools to increase Lannister power and prestige, an approach that was ultimately damaging to all three of them. Yet, look what happened after his death. Everything Tywin sought to build up is falling apart and in the end, all of his achievements aren't much at all. Cersei went through the WoS which would have damanged the family name, Jaime has pretty much made the decision to choose the KG over family, and Tyrion is on the run as a kinslayer and kingslayer.

This is discussing result...not intent.

For example i don't think Cat meant to drag her family into a war by leaving her son broken in bed while she grabbed Tyrion and gave an excuse for Jamie and Tywin to act. it just worked out that way out of her good intentions.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

I agree. When it came to his children, Tywin's act look to have bought him short-term sucess. He viewed the tree of them as tools to increase Lannister power and prestige, an approach that was ultimately damaging to all three of them. Yet, look what happened after his death. Everything Tywin sought to build up is falling apart and in the end, all of his achievements aren't much at all. Cersei went through the WoS which would have damanged the family name, Jaime has pretty much made the decision to choose the KG over family, and Tyrion is on the run as a kinslayer and kingslayer.

You could say the same thing about Ned Stark. What he ultimately wanted was his children happy and to live out his life in the North. It's ended up with his lands ravaged, house all but destroyed and his children, those that are still alive, scattered across the globe.

[ServantOnIce]

The Rains of Castamere > Than this thread.

Lord Tywin is one of the most powerful if not THEE most powerful man in all of Westeros. He whipped The Starks and Tullys and secured the throne for his offspring and nailed the tar out of Shae, he died, "winning."

But he still died . . .

[ab aeterno]

Lord Tywin is one of the most powerful if not THEE most powerful man in all of Westeros. He whipped The Starks and Tullys and secured the throne for his offspring and nailed the tar out of Shae, he died, "winning."

Are you kidding?

[Zupoleon]

Are you kidding?

You took the words out of my mouth...

[Gurkhal]

The Rains of Castamere > Than this thread.

Lord Tywin is one of the most powerful if not THEE most powerful man in all of Westeros. He whipped The Starks and Tullys and secured the throne for his offspring and nailed the tar out of Shae, he died, "winning."

But he still died . . .

You make some pretty good points. At the time of his death the Northern army was destroyed at the Twins and as we can see how the Riverlords surrendered afterwards to the Freys and Lannister forces the fight also seems to have gone out from the Riverlords after that blow, so Tywin was most certainly winning when Tyrion put a bolt into his bowls.

[ab aeterno]

You make some pretty good points. At the time of his death the Northern army was destroyed at the Twins and as we can see how the Riverlords surrendered afterwards to the Freys and Lannister forces the fight also seems to have gone out from the Riverlords after that blow, so Tywin was most certainly winning when Tyrion put a bolt into his bowls.

But Tywin did precisely none of these things. The Freys, Jaime, Tyrion, Roose, the Tyrells and Randyll Taryl were responsible for all the victories. Tywin's biggest contribution was rubber stamping Walder Frey's revenge.

[Frey Pie]

Whoever was in charge of Tywins propaganda should become King because it seems theyve even fooled so many people not in Westeros.

Ya Tywin had Tysha raped because he knew Tyrion could do better and he wanted what was best for his son. A simple annulment wouldnt do........