Do you think Cersei's Walk of Shame was misogynistic?

[RottenAppleFossoway]

I didn't enjoy it in the slightest. The question is if that would be done to man or not, if not a very good case for it being a misogynistic can be made.

Edited for not finishing my sentences.

IIRC, didn't the Dothraki do something similar to the wine seller that tried to poison Dany?

Granted it was halfway around the world and completely different cultures and all...

[kingofashes]

He didn't have a vagina though, so it doesn't matter if he was stripped naked in front of others against his will. It's only a crime when women are involved :-P

Good point but I can't remember if he was stripped or not. I'm sure his clothes were gone by the end.

btw I understand how Cersei's would have a bigger impact because we get to see inside her head and find out what she is feeling. Plus we know her well. This all means anything that happens to her is going to have a much bigger effect on us readers.

[Otho Bracken]

Cruelty and humiliation seem to be equal-opportunity in Westeros; against this backdrop I don't see this event as particularly misogynistic. I remember thinking that Cersei is getting off lightly here...and I think she knows it.

[The BlackBear]

IIRC, didn't the Dothraki do something similar to the wine seller that tried to poison Dany?

Granted it was halfway around the world and completely different cultures and all...

The main punishment there was an excruciating execution, the crime trying to kill Dany, the nakedness was probably just an afterthought, and he'd get more cut up without clothes.

[Free Northman]

This is a bit of a laugh.

People get tortured and burned to death in Westeros, and if such had been Cerseis end people would have said tut-tut but she kind of deserved it.

Dare to include a bit of gender based humiliation though, and suddenly its an issue.

Of course it was misogynistic. But misogynism is most certainly not a worse offense than torturing or burning someone to death. So there's no issue whatsoever.

[MCBC]

From my perspective Cersei got off light because she was being punished for some of the minor things she has done. This is a person who has ruined lives, tortured innocents, lied about the true identity of her children, had people murdered with no remorse or compassion for others. She deserves far worse because she is a terrible human being.

[Karakoran]

Pretty much no one in ASOIAF hates women in some intent, direct way. Most just don't respect them.

But why does this only apply to the Queen? Robert wasn't persecuted for his habits, but Cersei is.

Women are constantly being called whores and wenches etc. in Westeros, Misogyny is a part of the atmosphere, it is part of the atmosphere, and the disproportionate punishment of a female ruler for promiscuity is in line with this.

Think of all the supposed habits powerful men in Westeros get away with, Lyn Corbray apparently enjoys young boys, Gregor Clegane hardly seems to leave anyone alive, Roose enforces Lord's right.

That's not misogony, that's a double standard. And it probably has something to do with her having sex with her cousin.

Considering that it was openly stated by the High Septon to be misogynistic ("wantonness of widows is commonly known", or shit like that), your question is moot in large part.

That's not misogony, it's sexism sure, but he doesn't hate women. And he wasn't entirely wrong either, Cersei was having sex with seemingly the entire Red Keep.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

This is a bit of a laugh.

People get tortured and burned to death in Westeros, and if such had been Cerseis end people would have said tut-tut but she kind of deserved it.

Dare to include a bit of gender based humiliation though, and suddenly its an issue.

Of course it was misogynistic. But misogynism is most certainly not a worse offense than torturing or burning someone to death. So there's no issue whatsoever.

Good point. I can't believe anyone would think that her punishment was WORSE than Theon, I mean they cut off his manhood! I think Cersei would prefer the Walk of Shame to getting her teats cut off. :ack:

[Kolantero]

This is a bit of a laugh.

People get tortured and burned to death in Westeros, and if such had been Cerseis end people would have said tut-tut but she kind of deserved it.

Dare to include a bit of gender based humiliation though, and suddenly its an issue.

Of course it was misogynistic. But misogynism is most certainly not a worse offense than torturing or burning someone to death. So there's no issue whatsoever.

Amen!

Also to the OP: No ofcourse WoS is NOT an indication of GRRM's personal beliefs.

[LadyMary]

To the extent that the walk of shame was just a very public form of slut-shaming, punishing cersei for exercising her sexual autonomy, yes, it was misogynistic. Robert never would have faced tghat kind of judgment for his whoring. But the walk was also a political move to strip cersei of her remaining public support and her ability to weild power. In that sense the high sparrow (and kevan) was capitalizing on the pre-existing sexism in that society to eliminate a female rival.

However, I always try to separate the author's opinions and beliefs from those of his characters. Obviously GRRM knows the walk was misogynistic. sexism is a major theme of cersei's arc. As others have said, I think the scene was designed to leave us conflicted. we know cersei deserves to be punished for her actions in feast and dance, but not like that.

This well describes my thoughts on the chapter. Cersei is being shamed for her sexuality in general, not for allegedly cuckolding the King with her own brother (which gets ignored by the same Septons). The scene works to me sympathize with Cersei somewhat, even though she is guilty of a great many actual deceits and crimes. She's not being punished for incest, or for attempting to murder her brother Tyrion, or for lying to implicate Margaery about alleged sexual misconduct, or for sentencing innocent people to a fate worse than death at Qyburn's hands, etc., she's being punished for having a sex life outside of marriage.

[Myk Lonmouth]

Can't wait to see this on the show.

[direwolf_of_white_fangs]

Not misogynistic at all I would say. She represents the female pride during harsh medieval times and the walk of shame sort of hints at that with all her hurt pride.

On another note Cercei Lannister hasn't behaved exactly as a pristine queen so much for her pride.

So if you were in the crowd would you shout bad names, swear and throw stuff at her or support her?

[poor_fellow]

I'm not about to write Martin and beg him to add a medieval slut walk in the next novel. Put Cersei and her evilness aside and let's reduce her to her sex. She's a woman. She admitted to fornication. She had to face sexual humiliation to be considered cleansed of that sin. Would that have happened to Robert? No. Now take Osney Kettleblack. He's a man. He admitted to fornication. He was TORTURED into honesty. Would that have happened to one of Margaery's companions? No.

If I'm watching television and there's a rape scene, my stomach drops. Men know what I'm talking about. My stomach tightens, I feel uncomfortable, and I feel pure revulsion. Then the rapist blows the husband's brains out and I feel close to nothing for the man. A human being dying, his whole future empty and I can't summon much feeling for him. Theon Greyjoy was tortured into insanity and what haunts me is Ramsay forcing Jeyne to do sex acts to a dog. In the books women may be oppressed in some ways, but they're also protected in some ways too. Women didn't burn on the field of fire and they won't be expected to risk their lives in the upcoming battles. Brienne wants to be a respected knight. Men and women treat her with contempt. Sam wanted to stay at home to read and sew and play with his sisters. Men and women treated him with contempt. Poor women are seen selling their bodies in Mereen to try and eat. You pity them and don't stop to think about the men who have nothing to sell and starve to death on the streets. Both sexes have their own crosses to bear, and Martin keeps that in mind while writing.

[The Killer Snark]

Do you mean misogynistic from a literary point of view? Cersei's walk of shame was the only moment in the series from her appearance as a POV where I felt any kind of sympathy with her. I believe that was Martin's point, to try and humanise the character in a crisis situation, and though I still hope she receives further punishment because it's either her or Margaery Tyrell, she's not a character I've ever actually hated. In fact, her POVs in the fourth book were the most entertaining by a mile. I expected I'd enjoy her walk of shame at first because I knew it was coming, but I actually did feel a bit sorry for her. It won't make her a better person, though, being definitively confronted with the fact that her looks are the only things she has going for her and now she's visiibly starting to lose them. Unlike other characters who suffer captivity/ hardship/ mutilation, you can't sympathise with her too closely (for instance, I've always liked Theon) because you know that she won't change.

[Nelapsi]

By all means, it was from the High Sparrow's point of view. Granted, a man would never have to suffer such public humiliation, no matter how many women he would have intercourse with.

It was a 'nice' way to show how shit gets back to you in a man-supremacy-driven society as Westeros if you are a powerful woman that goes against social rules.

I loved this chapter, I just loved how bad it made me feel : I felt bad for Cersei, and glad at the same time she was being punished at last, and felt bad again for feeling THAT good about someone's humiliation lol

[The Wolves]

I think it was misogynistic. Cersei was being punished for the fact that she slept with men outside marriage, it wasn't for betraying the king or whatnot cause Robert was dead, but sleeping with men outside marriage. I get why it was done, this is a society that is very misogynistic and Cersei had to be punished and put in her place in the eyes of the seven and the High Priestess. I think the walk was done to show Cersei that she IS merely a woman and how she was overstepping her place in society and also to punish her.

I felt nothing for Cersei except a very small feeling of satisfaction. I also think she deserved the walk, not cause she is a woman and should be punished for sleeping around but because I hate her and want her deeply humiliated before she dies. I would have been satisfied with her just dying but the walk was justly deserved IMO for her punishment because she along with many others deserve some humiliation before dying

[The Killer Snark]

From a social standpoint in the novels, it was very misogynistic, but it's impossible to complain of the irony of the situation. It was Cersei's lunatic stupidity that granted power to the Faith to ultimately punish her, once it was clear they regarded the debt-shirking regent as a threat to the realm, from the Faith's point of view. I don't think that her lack of sense in relation to the High Sparrow is a moment of crass lack of foresight exceeded by anyone in the book.

Incidentally, Robert was a completely lousy husband, though Cersei was apparently always a bit mad, so I don't personally blame her for deciding to seek lovers elsewhere.

[JonNonRegis]

People get tortured and burned to death in Westeros, and if such had been Cerseis end people would have said tut-tut but she kind of deserved it.

Dare to include a bit of gender based humiliation though, and suddenly its an issue.

Yes. It was a misogynistic move by the Faith; a man would not have been punished in that way, but in a far worse way.

It was not misogynistic on the part of the author, particularly. He has actually, in my opinion, been far crueler to the male of the species in these books.

Yes, he'll do extremely nasty things to minor characters like Jeyne Poole. But for the major-league girls and women, he has kid gloves. He'll hurt their feelings, scare them, and kill people they love, but allow no serious harm to come to them as a general rule and certainly not allow them to be raped.

Let's consider the fates of the Starks, for instance.

Rickard: Burned alive.

His son Brandon: Forced to commit suicide trying to save Rickard.

Ned: Decapitated for being too honorable

Bran: Crippled for life, left unable to feel anything below the waist or walk

Robb: Murdered

Rickon: So far unharmed

Jon: Stabbed repeatedly by his Night's Watch brothers

Sansa: So far unharmed, never raped

Arya: So far unharmed, never raped

Catelyn: Murdered -- the standout exception to this rule.

Or consider matters from a plot standpoint.

For instance, in SoS, Brienne and Jaime fight. Jaime is, in the author's own opinion, possibly the greatest swordsman in Westeros, someone who could destroy Aragorn in single combat, and he seems quite eager to kill her... but Brienne lasts multiple minutes unharmed. Pretty impressive.

They are captured by Hoat. Jaime loses his sword hand, a devastating event. Brienne? She's about to be raped, but then Jaime saves her. Then she's about to die, killed by a bear, but Jaime saves her again. Unharmed.

In FFC, it's true she is made to suffer horribly from a boring plotline -- a blow from which neither she nor we may ever fully recover.

At the end of it, she seems to have been hung to death by Catelyn, but then we discover in DwD that she's hunky-dory. Her shouted word saved her, and she is unharmed.

No surprise there; she's a major female character whom the author likes, and so is immune to serious harm. (Her feelings may be badly hurt when Jaime fails to love her, though.)

Then there's Dany. Yes, she has a tough lot in having to marry this harsh warlord Khal Drogo... who, quite astonishingly for a harsh warlord, refuses ever to have sex with her, even after they are married, until such time as she asks for it.

Dany's situation is in this respect exactly like Sansa's after she was married to Tyrion (who is oft decried as a rapist in these forums of late).

I could go on. Let's just say Mr. Martin has a clear soft spot for the leading ladies.

[Natalia Borgia]

Brienne was threatened with rape repeatedly, Sansa is stripped, Gregor rapes some poor peasant girl, Tyrion's first wife is gang raped by the Lannister household knights, Dany was almost raped by her brother and if Khal Drogo had been a jerk would have had to sleep with his bloodriders, Arya in boy disguise is threatened with rape, etc, etc

The walk of shame was a medieval punishment- I am sure GRRM being the history buff he is chose it for that reason and misogyny and religion are like tea and sugar.

[Arya Stalka]

She started off so proud I kinda thought she wouldn't break down.