Is Dany actually the ANTAGONIST?

[ab aeterno]

On a real note i quit rooting for a king when Robb died. I love Stannis after my re read but i dont think he will be king. So i guess i support Stannis but if Apple Martinis Great Northern Conspiracy ends up being true i will drop my stag banner and fly the direwolf once again. I fucking love how badass Stannis gets sometimes tho

Good King Stannis. We welcome your support. :P

[butterbumps!]

The situations are not comparable.

That's your view, not mine. The method of death for Stannis' chosen religion is fire. The men he condemn to die, die by fire. He isn't running around setting random people on fire to prove a point.

Yea, they are precisely comparable. Crucifixion was common where Dany was and burning people was a Queen Man thing. I think it's a huge double standard. That Stannis burns people for religious propaganda (because, remember, he doesn't actually believe in it, so he's donning the floppy ears for those who do) doesn't make burning men alive any less of a torture.

[ab aeterno]

Yea, they are precisely comparable. Crucifixion was common where Dany was and burning people was a Queen Man thing. I think it's a huge double standard. That Stannis burns people for religious propaganda (because, remember, he doesn't actually believe in it, so he's donning the floppy ears for those who do) doesn't make burning men alive any less of a torture.

I have to agree. Stannis' burning reflects poorly on him, as do many things that Mel does, sadly.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

TheWizard knows no king but the King in the North whose name is STARK,

On a real note i quit rooting for a king when Robb died. I love Stannis after my re read but i dont think he will be king. So i guess i support Stannis but if Apple Martinis Great Northern Conspiracy ends up being true i will drop my stag banner and fly the direwolf once again. I fucking love how badass Stannis gets sometimes tho

Personally, I would love a scenario where we have separate kingdoms once again. Where a Stark, Baratheon, and Targaryren each sit upon a throne, but of course this will not happen. :(

[Tagganaro]

That's your view, not mine. The method of death for Stannis' chosen religion is fire. The men he condemn to die, die by fire. He isn't running around setting random people on fire to prove a point.

Isn't that precisely what he's doing? He's burning these men to prove that cannibalism won't be tolerated.

[ab aeterno]

Isn't that precisely what he's doing? He's burning these men to prove that cannibalism won't be tolerated.

I personally don't think so. My impression was that he was burning them because cannibalism is a crime, and the Queen's Men want criminals burned, rather than to make an example of them. Doesn't make it any less problematic though.

[devilrob6]

“They call him frog,” she said, “and we have just learned why. In the Seven Kingdoms there are children’s tales of frogs who turn into enchanted princes when kissed by their true love.” Smiling at the Dornish knights, she switched back to the Common Tongue. “Tell me, Prince Quentyn, are youenchanted?”

“No, Your Grace.”

“I feared as much.” Neither enchanted nor enchanting, alas. A pity he’s the prince, and not the one with the wide shoulders and the sandy hair. “You have come for a kiss, however. You mean to marry me. Is that the way of it? The gift you bring me is your own sweet self. Instead of Viserys and your sister, you and I must seal this pact if I want Dorne.”

“My father hoped that you might find me acceptable.”

Would Dany have considered marrying Quentyn, if he had been better looking? Would she have considered marrying Hizdar if he looked like Quentyn? (can't remember what Hizdar looked liked). The line in bold might imply that. And i think that line says a lot about Dany. It's something Sansa could have thought in the first book, when she still believed in stories and noble knights. Dany is too immature to handle the amount of power that she currently has (the chaos she brought to Essos proves it). And i think that will make her an antagonist to the people in Westeros, even though she's not an evil person.

But as people have said, it's all relative. Everyone is the protagonist in his/her own story. Most characters will see her as an antagonist.

[E-Ro]

Would Dany have considered marrying Quentyn, if he had been better looking? Would she have considered marrying Hizdar if he looked like Quentyn? (can't remember what Hizdar looked liked). The line in bold might imply that. And i think that line says a lot about Dany. It's something Sansa could have thought in the first book, when she still believed in stories and noble knights. Dany is too immature to handle the amount of power that she currently has (the chaos she brought to Essos proves it). And i think that will make her an antagonist to the people in Westeros, even though she's not an evil person.

But as people have said, it's all relative. Everyone is the protagonist in his/her own story. Most characters will see her as an antagonist.

Wait, so being attracted to attractive people makes you "immature" you learn something new every day.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Yea, they are precisely comparable. Crucifixion was common where Dany was and burning people was a Queen Man thing. I think it's a huge double standard.

That's your view, not mine.

Dany knowingly crucified men that she was not sure were guilty. Also, there's a difference between a practice being 'common' and a practice being apart of a religion.

Stannis killed men to ensure stability in his army, Dany killed men as a sign of power and revenge. I don't see a double standard.

That Stannis burns people for religious propaganda (because, remember, he doesn't actually believe in it, so he's donning the floppy ears for those who do) doesn't make burning men alive any less of a torture.

I don't like the fact that Stannis burns people alive. My point is not that burning isn't torture, it's that Stannis did the best thing given his situation. That was our original discussion and now it is becoming something else entirely.

Stannis may not fully buy into his chosen religion, but he still struggles with the idea that he may really be AAR. He still feels that he is doing the right thing to save Westeros which is what all this boils down to. Dany is seeking revenge...there's a difference.

[PatrickStormborn]

Everyone in the series is an antagonist depending on the point of view, hence why GRRM utilises the POV narrative. So yeah, in some ways Dany is an antagonist. But she's also a protagonist facing antagonists of her own.

Also, unless you're reading a different ADwD to me, I failed to notice any similarities between Aerys and Dany. If anything, she's similar to Aegon the Conqueror and possibly - at a stretch - Maegor the Cruel, as she has shown that she is willing to use dire methods for the right cause. I don't think it's coincidental that, when Dany is asserting her identity for the first time in A Game of Thrones, those are the two relatives she mentions: "I am Daenerys Stormborn, Daenerys of House Targaryen, of the blood of Aegon the Conqueror and Maegor the Cruel ..."

If you have any evidence that she takes pleasure in the pain of others (or any other signs that she's anything like Aerys), I'd be interested to see it.

Would Dany have considered marrying Quentyn, if he had been better looking? Would she have considered marrying Hizdar if he looked like Quentyn? (can't remember what Hizdar looked liked). The line in bold might imply that. And i think that line says a lot about Dany. It's something Sansa could have thought in the first book, when she still believed in stories and noble knights. Dany is too immature to handle the amount of power that she currently has (the chaos she brought to Essos proves it). And i think that will make her an antagonist to the people in Westeros, even though she's not an evil person.

I don't think there's anything wrong with wishing that your suitor was more attractive.

But it's irrelevant anyway; Dany knows that she can't marry him until Meereen has been sorted out. If he had've brought his "50,000 spears", she probably would have married him even if he looked like Jorah.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Isn't that precisely what he's doing? He's burning these men to prove that cannibalism won't be tolerated.

Stannis issued punishment for a crime. Stannis only burned the men involved in the crime.

[The Mother of The Others]

If you want to punish cannibalism, is cooking people in front of everyone the best way to go about discouraging the eaters? Smells like BBQ. It's like you're sending the cannibals the message "Here's how you could be doing it better! This is how to really make people taste good!"

Also, haven't we known Stormborn was the antagonist all along? The oldguard keepers of the status quo, Eddard and Robert, started off by arguing about whether they should tie up loose ends by killing the child of their enemy. Then, we got to know that antagonist, which felt like a special perk and shifted our feelings somewhat in her favor, but it didn't change her function as the big bad boogieman who was coming for everyone. She tears stuff up and Westeros is on her naughty list, so yes that will antagonize when their two worlds collide. What'll be weird is if her chapters continue to sound like those of a liberator during the invasion and not like the diary of a meanie. Don't people like this continue on because they continually see themselves as being justified to pursue their destiny?

[Faint]

Yeah, I guess you could consider her a villain, if you are a slave owner.

[devilrob6]

Do you have the same sense of justification for the 163 slavers Dany crucified? While I don't favor capital punishment, my issue with these methods are the fact they are forms of torture: inhumane, cruel, unnecessary. I hold this for both Dany and Stannis.

The difference is that Dany didn't bother to find out if all those 163 slavers, were responsibe for the crucifiction of the 163 children. She just wanted 163 to match the number. Some of them might have been innocent. Some of them guilty. And some guilty people might have been left alive.

Stannis burns people who are known to be guilty of something. That doen't make it right, but it does make it less bad. I don't like the way of execution (or death penalties at all), but i feel the same about beheading (Ned, Jon, Robb, Theon), flaying, drowning, poisoning or throwing people from a mountain. Death penalty seems to be accepted in Westeros. So it's strange that people only critisize Stannis.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

If you want to punish cannibalism, is cooking people in front of everyone the best way to go about discouraging the eaters? Smells like BBQ. It's like you're sending the cannibals the message "Here's how you could be doing it better! This is how to really make people taste good!"

:laugh:

[E-Ro]

Lady tippy I like your new avatar, it suits you I think.

[Faceless Sam]

in the same way robb was an antagonist to the lannisters, yes.

[devilrob6]

Wait, so being attracted to attractive people makes you "immature" you learn something new every day.

No, but in her position it shouldn't affect her decisions. Or should she say for instance. " oh, i should marry hizdar to end the killings and bring peace to mereen. But..No, fuck it, cos i don't like his face" .

[butterbumps!]

The difference is that Dany didn't bother to find out if all those 163 slavers, were responsibe for the crucifiction of the 163 children. She just wanted 163 to match the number. Some of them might have been innocent. Some of them guilty. And some guilty people might have been left alive.

Stannis burns people who are known to be guilty of something. That doen't make it right, but it does make it less bad. I don't like the way of execution (or death penalties at all), but i feel the same about beheading (Ned, Jon, Robb, Theon), flaying, drowning, poisoning or throwing people from a mountain. Death penalty seems to be accepted in Westeros. So it's strange that people only critisize Stannis.

Well, I've personally written volumes of critique on Dany's 163, and frankly, neither this nor Stannis' criminals are really appreciably different. They just really aren't. I don't understand how advocates for either character argue that their preferred character is less wrong for this honestly nearly identical act. Both choose their particular execution methods for show, to prove a point. The execution method is where the problem lies, not in the fact that there were executions in the first place.

[straits]

Well, I've personally written volumes of critique on Dany's 163, and frankly, neither this nor Stannis' criminals are really appreciably different. They just really aren't. I don't understand how advocates for either character argue that their preferred character is less wrong for this honestly nearly identical act. Both choose their particular execution methods for show, to prove a point. The execution method is where the problem lies, not in the fact that there were executions in the first place.

163 is an arbitrary number. Taking an arbitrary number of lives on top of the decision to take lives is open to harsh criticism.

Would Dany have considered marrying Quentyn, if he had been better looking? Would she have considered marrying Hizdar if he looked like Quentyn? (can't remember what Hizdar looked liked). The line in bold might imply that. And i think that line says a lot about Dany. It's something Sansa could have thought in the first book, when she still believed in stories and noble knights. Dany is too immature to handle the amount of power that she currently has (the chaos she brought to Essos proves it). And i think that will make her an antagonist to the people in Westeros, even though she's not an evil person.

But as people have said, it's all relative. Everyone is the protagonist in his/her own story. Most characters will see her as an antagonist.

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<------------------------------Dany has been spoiled by sexy beasts such as Daario