Jump to content

References and Homages


Ran
 Share

Recommended Posts

Also, a number of people have noted references to T.S. Eliot's The Wasteland. I'm fascinated by the comparison. Here's my post, again from the Syrio Forel, What's in a Name thread:

Here is a part of T. S. Eliot's, the Wasteland. I especially liked the "do you know nothing?" lines as references for Ygritte's telling Jon Snow, "You know nothing, Jon Snow.

II. A Game of Chess

The Chair she sat in, like a burnished throne,

Glowed on the marble, where the glass

Held up by standards wrought with fruited vines

From which a golden Cupidon peeped out 80

(Another hid his eyes behind his wing)

Doubled the flames of sevenbranched candelabra

Reflecting light upon the table as

The glitter of her jewels rose to meet it,

From satin cases poured in rich profusion; 85

In vials of ivory and coloured glass

Unstoppered, lurked her strange synthetic perfumes,

Unguent, powdered, or liquid—troubled, confused

And drowned the sense in odours; stirred by the air

That freshened from the window, these ascended 90

In fattening the prolonged candle-flames,

Flung their smoke into the laquearia,

Stirring the pattern on the coffered ceiling.

Huge sea-wood fed with copper

Burned green and orange, framed by the coloured stone, 95

In which sad light a carvèd dolphin swam.

Above the antique mantel was displayed

As though a window gave upon the sylvan scene

The change of Philomel, by the barbarous king

So rudely forced; yet there the nightingale 100

Filled all the desert with inviolable voice

And still she cried, and still the world pursues,

“Jug Jug” to dirty ears.

And other withered stumps of time

Were told upon the walls; staring forms 105

Leaned out, leaning, hushing the room enclosed.

Footsteps shuffled on the stair,

Under the firelight, under the brush, her hair

Spread out in fiery points

Glowed into words, then would be savagely still. 110

“My nerves are bad to-night. Yes, bad. Stay with me.

Speak to me. Why do you never speak? Speak.

What are you thinking of? What thinking? What?

I never know what you are thinking. Think.”

I think we are in rats’ alley 115

Where the dead men lost their bones.

“What is that noise?”

The wind under the door.

“What is that noise now? What is the wind doing?”

Nothing again nothing. 120

“Do

You know nothing? Do you see nothing? Do you remember

Nothing?”

I remember

Those are pearls that were his eyes. 125

“Are you alive, or not? Is there nothing in your head?”

But

O O O O that Shakespeherian Rag—

It’s so elegant

So intelligent 130

“What shall I do now? What shall I do?

I shall rush out as I am, and walk the street

With my hair down, so. What shall we do to-morrow?

What shall we ever do?”

The hot water at ten. 135

And if it rains, a closed car at four.

And we shall play a game of chess,

Pressing lidless eyes and waiting for a knock upon the door.

When Lil’s husband got demobbed, I said,

I didn’t mince my words, I said to her myself, 140

HURRY UP PLEASE ITS TIME

Now Albert’s coming back, make yourself a bit smart.

He’ll want to know what you done with that money he gave you

To get yourself some teeth. He did, I was there.

You have them all out, Lil, and get a nice set, 145

He said, I swear, I can’t bear to look at you.

And no more can’t I, I said, and think of poor Albert,

He’s been in the army four years, he wants a good time,

And if you don’t give it him, there’s others will, I said.

Oh is there, she said. Something o’ that, I said. 150

Then I’ll know who to thank, she said, and give me a straight look.

HURRY UP PLEASE ITS TIME

If you don’t like it you can get on with it, I said,

Others can pick and choose if you can’t.

But if Albert makes off, it won’t be for lack of telling. 155

You ought to be ashamed, I said, to look so antique.

(And her only thirty-one.)

I can’t help it, she said, pulling a long face,

It’s them pills I took, to bring it off, she said.

(She’s had five already, and nearly died of young George.) 160

The chemist said it would be alright, but I’ve never been the same.

You are a proper fool, I said.

Well, if Albert won’t leave you alone, there it is, I said,

What you get married for if you don’t want children?

HURRY UP PLEASE ITS TIME 165

Well, that Sunday Albert was home, they had a hot gammon,

And they asked me in to dinner, to get the beauty of it hot—

HURRY UP PLEASE ITS TIME

HURRY UP PLEASE ITS TIME

Goonight Bill. Goonight Lou. Goonight May. Goonight. 170

Ta ta. Goonight. Goonight.

Good night, ladies, good night, sweet ladies, good night, good night.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Serie, on 30 March 2012 - 03:51 AM, said:

has anyone thought of the greyjoys as Grey Joy, meaning they're no good or no fun?

Ravenhair:

Yes, or the idea that their joy is some how bad or wrong. Somewhat like these 3 characters from Edmund Spenser's poem, The Faerie Queene:

Sansfoy, Sansjoy and Sansloy (names from the old French meaning "Faithless", "Joyless" and "Lawless"), three saracen knights who fight Redcrosse in Book One.

I could swear that there is Aegon reference in the Faerie Queene, but I cannot find it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, a number of people have noted references to T.S. Eliot's The Wasteland. I'm fascinated by the comparison. Here's my post, again from the Syrio Forel, What's in a Name thread:

Here is a part of T. S. Eliot's, the Wasteland. I especially liked the "do you know nothing?" lines as references for Ygritte's telling Jon Snow, "You know nothing, Jon Snow.

II. A Game of Chess

The Chair she sat in, like a burnished throne,

Glowed on the marble, where the glass

Held up by standards wrought with fruited vines

From which a golden Cupidon peeped out 80

(Another hid his eyes behind his wing)

Doubled the flames of sevenbranched candelabra

Reflecting light upon the table as

The glitter of her jewels rose to meet it,

From satin cases poured in rich profusion; 85

In vials of ivory and coloured glass

Unstoppered, lurked her strange synthetic perfumes,

Unguent, powdered, or liquid—troubled, confused

And drowned the sense in odours; stirred by the air

That freshened from the window, these ascended 90

In fattening the prolonged candle-flames,

Flung their smoke into the laquearia,

Stirring the pattern on the coffered ceiling.

Huge sea-wood fed with copper

Burned green and orange, framed by the coloured stone, 95

In which sad light a carvèd dolphin swam.

Above the antique mantel was displayed

As though a window gave upon the sylvan scene

The change of Philomel, by the barbarous king

So rudely forced; yet there the nightingale 100

Filled all the desert with inviolable voice

And still she cried, and still the world pursues,

“Jug Jug” to dirty ears.

And other withered stumps of time

Were told upon the walls; staring forms 105

Leaned out, leaning, hushing the room enclosed.

Footsteps shuffled on the stair,

Under the firelight, under the brush, her hair

Spread out in fiery points

Glowed into words, then would be savagely still. 110

“My nerves are bad to-night. Yes, bad. Stay with me.

Speak to me. Why do you never speak? Speak.

What are you thinking of? What thinking? What?

I never know what you are thinking. Think.”

I think we are in rats’ alley 115

Where the dead men lost their bones.

“What is that noise?”

The wind under the door.

“What is that noise now? What is the wind doing?”

Nothing again nothing. 120

“Do

You know nothing? Do you see nothing? Do you remember

Nothing?”

I remember

Those are pearls that were his eyes. 125

“Are you alive, or not? Is there nothing in your head?”

But

O O O O that Shakespeherian Rag—

It’s so elegant

So intelligent 130

“What shall I do now? What shall I do?

I shall rush out as I am, and walk the street

With my hair down, so. What shall we do to-morrow?

What shall we ever do?”

The hot water at ten. 135

And if it rains, a closed car at four.

And we shall play a game of chess,

Pressing lidless eyes and waiting for a knock upon the door.

When Lil’s husband got demobbed, I said,

I didn’t mince my words, I said to her myself, 140

HURRY UP PLEASE ITS TIME

Now Albert’s coming back, make yourself a bit smart.

He’ll want to know what you done with that money he gave you

To get yourself some teeth. He did, I was there.

You have them all out, Lil, and get a nice set, 145

He said, I swear, I can’t bear to look at you.

And no more can’t I, I said, and think of poor Albert,

He’s been in the army four years, he wants a good time,

And if you don’t give it him, there’s others will, I said.

Oh is there, she said. Something o’ that, I said. 150

Then I’ll know who to thank, she said, and give me a straight look.

HURRY UP PLEASE ITS TIME

If you don’t like it you can get on with it, I said,

Others can pick and choose if you can’t.

But if Albert makes off, it won’t be for lack of telling. 155

You ought to be ashamed, I said, to look so antique.

(And her only thirty-one.)

I can’t help it, she said, pulling a long face,

It’s them pills I took, to bring it off, she said.

(She’s had five already, and nearly died of young George.) 160

The chemist said it would be alright, but I’ve never been the same.

You are a proper fool, I said.

Well, if Albert won’t leave you alone, there it is, I said,

What you get married for if you don’t want children?

HURRY UP PLEASE ITS TIME 165

Well, that Sunday Albert was home, they had a hot gammon,

And they asked me in to dinner, to get the beauty of it hot—

HURRY UP PLEASE ITS TIME

HURRY UP PLEASE ITS TIME

Goonight Bill. Goonight Lou. Goonight May. Goonight. 170

Ta ta. Goonight. Goonight.

Good night, ladies, good night, sweet ladies, good night, good night.

Here's T.S. Eliot's own notes on The Wasteland where he indicates a reliance on the Holy Grail legend:

Not only the title, but the plan and a good deal of the incidental symbolism of the poem were suggested by Miss Jessie L. Weston’s book on the Grail legend: From Ritual to Romance (Macmillan). Indeed, so deeply am I indebted, Miss Weston’s book will elucidate the difficulties of the poem much better than my notes can do; and I recommend it (apart from the great interest of the book itself) to any who think such elucidation of the poem worth the trouble. To another work of anthropology I am indebted in general, one which has influenced our generation profoundly; I mean The Golden Bough; I have used especially the two volumes Attis Adonis Osiris. Anyone who is acquainted with these works will immediately recognise in the poem certain references to vegetation ceremonies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, I noticed this as well. Here's my quote from the Syrio Forel What's In a Name thread?

quote name='Ravenhair' timestamp='1333210991' post='3093257']

The Dan Haggard interviews Are good. I especially like his comparison of Lancelot and Jaime. I'm an attorney now, but t majored in English. You could use these books to write a thesis or paper that would be a teacher's wet dream. Just think Cersei/Jaime and the Jacob/ Esau comparison from the bible. The comparison of Bran's story to Bran the Blessed from a Welsh story, "Mari somethi ng" and to the Fisher King legend. A comparison of Cersei to Circe, and as some poster noted, Cersei did end up killing Robert with a Boar. Jaime possibly being a reference to the French J'aime--I love. If you really want to go take this far, do some research on Edmund Spenser's poem, The Faerie Queene, and even T. s. Eliot's the Wasteland.

The Welsh stories I could not remember are the Mabinogion

and I believe Bran the Blessed suffered a Pierced thigh or foot injury in them. I haven't read through all the reference and homage posts, but I'm relatively certain this has been noted before. So sorry for the repetition; I just thought it was cool.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/62077-brans-weirwood-visions/

@ Ravenhair We talked about the Grail King connection on this thread about Bran's weirwood visions. There are references in ASOIAF about holding the leader accountable for a bad harvest - in Pentos they elect the Prince for life but if the crops fail they execute him. This led to discussion about the sacrifice of the Winter King to end a particularly bad winter, a practice in some primitive societies; this seemed a dark omen about why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Link posted above. If you can wade through all the business about eye color that is intermingled, it was an interesting discussion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/62077-brans-weirwood-visions/

@ Ravenhair We talked about the Grail King connection on this thread about Bran's weirwood visions. There are references in ASOIAF about holding the leader accountable for a bad harvest - in Pentos they elect the Prince for life but if the crops fail they execute him. This led to discussion about the sacrifice of the Winter King to end a particularly bad winter, a practice in some primitive societies; this seemed a dark omen about why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Link posted above. If Gyou can wade through all the business about eye color that is intermingled, it was an interesting discussion.

I saw that, but when someone posted their fear that Jon would have to make the ultimate sacrifice to end the Long Winter, I thought it might be too possible an ending, and it was very depressing. I suppose I must go back and retread the thread, though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I saw that, but when someone posted their fear that Jon would have to make the ultimate sacrifice to end the Long Winter, I thought it might be too possible an ending, and it was very depressing. I suppose I must go back and retread the thread, though.

I thought Bran might make the sacrifice in Jon's stead. Either one is dreadful.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do apologise if this has already been brought up (I read the first 15 pages or so and didn't see it, I'll read the rest later), but I think there are strong parallels between the Glencoe Massacre and the Red Wedding.

To give some background, the Glencoe Massacre happened after the first Jacobite rebellion. To cut a long story very short, there were religious issues and the kingdom of Scotland (i.e. the north of Britain) considered seceding from the joint kingdoms of England (and Wales) and Ireland and proclaiming a separate king, as was the case in the past. This did not happen, but there were those who tried to do it in a rebellion. When this was crushed, those responsible were offered pardons should they swear loyalty by a certain date. The Glencoe chief was three days late in swearing loyalty, though no issue was made at the time because there was bad weather and whatnot.

Anyway, a plot was made regardless to kill the MacDonalds of Glencoe regardless and was signed by the king himself. What happened was that soldiers stayed at Glencoe in traditional highland custom, and then after two weeks massacred those who kept them as guests.

Parallels:

-The massacre was in violation of guest rights in Scotland. Admittedly it was reversed - the guests killing the hosts - but the idea is there. Indeed, this idea of hospitality ran deep enough that there was a charge of "murder in trust" for such occasions, so deeply ingrained was the idea of guest rights. It was just as unthinkable to do what the Campbells did to the MacDonalds as it was for the Freys to kill their guests. This is still remembered in Scotland today as something utterly abhorrent and reprehensible. The North remembers. ;]

-The massacre was related to the northern part of the realms wishing to become independent again.

-The massacre was related to issues with swearing an oath to the king.

-The massacre had Scots killing Scots at the behest of a king to the south.

-There was even a marriage relation between the man in charge of the massacre and the chief of Glencoe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All of the references and homages everyone has noted are fascinating, even if we may be overreaching. Last night, I was looking up something on Arthurian legends and noted that there was a St. Carranock (Welsh Carranog) who has one of the only two noted encounters with an "Arthur," who it has been argued could be an actual historical Arthur. Anyway, this St. Carranog (crannog anyone) was known for having a moving or portable altar (Greywater Watch moves also). Just thought it was interesting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I doubt this is a direct reference, but the "demon mask" tattoo that Jorah receives in ADWD as punishment for being a rebellious slave reminds me of Gully Foyle's mask tattoo in The Stars My Destination, as does his unchecked rage and his single-minded quest to track down his silver-haired paramour.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know if this actually counts but Valyria seems just like Rome and the Dothraki seem like the Germanic tribes that took over afterwards (On horseback they came down from the mountains, just like the Huns from Mongolia)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Neurosis, I think you're thinking of Sir William Marshall. Ser Arthur Dayne might owe something to him.

Someone suggested that Margaery's situation at the end of FFC resembles Anne Boleyn's. Anne was accused of witchcraft, incest with her brother George (whose wife gave evidence against them), and adultery with one of her musicians (Mark Smeaton) and four other male courtiers.

Cersei is suspicious of a connection between Margaery and a male musician, and while I haven't seen any reason to think the Tyrell siblings are incestuous, they are quite close. Margaery has been examined and found not to be a virgin--not the same as Anne's problem, but it could lead to trouble.

I ran across this from several years ago and the Margaery/Anne Boleyn thing suck out very strongly in my mind as well when I was reading about Cersei's plans to bring her down. Cersei's complaint of Tyrells everywhere (in multiple positions of power) is very reminiscent of the Boleyns being instilled throughout the court once Anne married Henry. Margaery's welcomed as a courtly, joyous breath of fresh air by both the common people and the court (very much like Anne Boleyn) while the king's former consort is put aside in disgrace. Margaery's accused of sleeping with multiple men, including a singer (Marillion/Smeaton) and the Queen considers accusing her of incest as well (as Anne was with George, who, interestingly enough has been portrayed as bisexual/gay).

At any rate, Natalie Dormer should have absolutely zero difficulty playing Margaery after her run as Anne Boleyn the Tudors!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The glass candles are like the palantir in LOTR. Credit to wyman's cook.

And Craster giving his sons to the Others, substituting sheep if no sons are available, is an evil perversion of Abraham, Isaac, and the new covenant.

Edited by Teal'c
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...