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The Frosted King

Tullys: Top three or bottom four?

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In terms of a combination of wealth, military power?

We know the top two are the Tyrells and then the Lannisters, respectively.

We also know the bottom three are likely the Arryns, Starks and finally the Baratheons, respectively again.

But the Martells are hard to peg, and so are the fishmen.

Where do you think they land?

I know militarily the Martells are weakest, but their economy saves them here.

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Well, your starting point is totally wrong.

The top 3 in terms of power are Tyrell, Lannister and Stark.

Bottom 3 are Martell, Baratheon and probably Tully then.

The Arryn's pack a lot of punch, because their food production to population ratio seems very high, given the fertility of the Vale, and their relatively dense population distribution and strategic position allows them to quickly assemble and project a force swiftly compared to most other regions.

For this reason the Arryns probably rank above the poorly situated, strategically weak Riverlands.

Put it this way - when we are introduced to Catelyn in Game of Thrones, the impression is strongly created that she married "upwards" to marry into the noble, ancient family of the Starks.

The Tullys just don't rate as highly as the Starks, in my view. This is reinforced when the Riverlords are happy to swear to a Stark king, while I cannot imagine a situation where the Northern lords would swear to a Tully.

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I do not know where the Tullys stand in terms of wealth or the amount of men they are able to raise but their vulnerability to invasion by almost all of the other powers make them the red headed stepchildren of Westeros

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I'd say they're somewhere in the middle. Not too poor because their lands seem relatively fertile (are close to rivers and whatnot) but are not very strong militarily and their lands are vulnerable.

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In terms of wealth they probably exceed the North.

In terms of population they probably match the North.

In terms of effective power they rank lowest of the mainland kingdoms, though.

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I think people are being coodled by Tywins strategy.

The riverlands are large, populous and fertile.

They should be top three populationwise.

Richlands can outfit good hosts

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The Vale may be just as fertile as Highgarden and it seems to be one of the better economically developed areas in the 7 kingdoms. The Starks themselves were not poor either, they may not have been at the top of the pack in wealth, but they are far from the bottom.

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The Vale may be just as fertile as Highgarden and it seems to be one of the better economically developed areas in the 7 kingdoms. The Starks themselves were not poor either, they may not have been at the top of the pack in wealth, but they are far from the bottom.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/73571-westeros-power-rankings/

Feell free to add to it. I plan on doing it again after TWOW

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You should add prestige as a factor. In that case Tyrell would be ranked in the bottom since they never were kings, same for the Tullys.

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They problem is they incredibly week strategic position. If the Vale or Nord decides to move on land(and the Nord only moves on land) their only option is throug the Riverlands. And they border evryone except Dorne and the Ironlands. I think there is no big war without them (even i they dont want to take part they still must) and that war is likely to be on thir soil.

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i would say at the beginning of the series they were middle of the pack, toward the bottom because of their positioning and relative youth as a power.

I would say the Tyrells are clearly the strongest and the Lannisters, Starks, Baratheons, and Arryns are about equal. Considering when they were still seven kingdoms none of them were able to take over the others so...

And the Greyjoys and Martells seem like the bottom if fighting in mainland Westeros.

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Population wise, my estimate:

Reach - 10m - density 25/square mile

North - 6m - density 5/sq.m

Riverlands -6m - density 20/sq.m

Westerlands - 4m - density 20/sq.m

Vale - 4m - density - 15/sq.m

Stormlands - 3m - density - 15/sq.m

Dorne - 2.5m - density - 10/sq.m

Iron Isles - 1m. Crazy density

I'll check these figures more carefully tomorrow when I have my maps in front of me. Right now, I imagine the order of geographical size goes:

North

Reach

Riverlands

Dorne

Vale

Westerlands

Stormlands

Iron Isles

I need to go back and check how the sizes of the Vale, Stormlands and Westerlands compare to each other though. To be continued...

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i would say at the beginning of the series they were middle of the pack, after the war they are obviously not a power at all. Rankings at the beginning of the series before any warring occured:

1. Tyrell

2. Lannister

3. Stark

4. Baratheon

5. Arryn

6. Tully

7. Martell

8. Greyjoy

In a way I do not disagree with you but I would put the Barratheons at first, they held two council seats and the kingship so i would have put them first. So switch them with the Tryrells at first and that looks about right. I would put the Arryns at 6th because they fell out of favor with the King after Jon died.

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The War of the Five Kings seems to have really shaken things up, leaving the formally top-ranking Lannisters and Starks in disarray and by this stage the Tullys are probably amongst the most wounded, with only the Tyrells and Martells left relatively intact.

However - and this is not based on any scientific analysis of the text, just my impressions - I would tend to see the pre-Wot5K landscape as being:

Lannister

Baratheon

Stark

Tyrell

Arryn

Martell

Tully

In the first instance, we knew that the Lannisters are hugely wealthy based upon both trade and mineral wealth. They have a very defensible, and from the impression I got, fertile homeland, and the capacity to field a very large army, together with a wealth of solid commanders. Politically they are all over the court, which helps too.

I get the impression that with the Baratheons, we underestimate their strength because it was split. They do, afterall, have the king on the throne, a large number of bannermen (as even without the Tyrells, Stannis takes a very large host to Kings' Landing), a very strong navy, control of the strategically important Dragonstone and fairly prosperous homelands. Their strength seems to be naval and military, but this must have been considerable to bare the weight of the Usurpers' War.

The Starks control the largest area geographically, can call upon a very large host and probably have, along with the Dornish, the most defensible homeland, making them extremely difficult to touch. Their strength militarily seems much stronger than the Dornish and they can clearly project it more effectively. They probably lack wealth, but the Starks seem to have been held in very high esteem.

The Tyrells are perhaps a little out of favour, in the post-Targaryen era, and perhaps lack any single definable asset that sets them apart, but they seem to be a very strong all-round package. Their lands are hugely fertile, they have a good amount of wealth, they can deploy a fine navy, and through Oldtown they have excellent trade links. Against them, they don't seem to outdo all the others on any single count and their homelands aren't so easy to defend if they fall out with everyone else, making negotiation and alliance-making more important, thus restricting the sitting Lord Tyrell's room for manoeuvre.

The Arryns have a very strong homeland and a decent amount of military power. However, they don't sit above anyone else in any of these categories and we haven't seen much recent evidence of them being able to project power very well, though this may be as much to do with the current state of the Arryn dynasty. They seem to have a strong position amongst the seven, but not a leading position.

The Martells have along with the Starks the most defensible homeland and they also have a strong tradition of marrying into the ruling dynasty. However, as Doran reveals, his prestige is largely based upon imagined power and the land isn't particularly kind, nor are the Dornish much capable of reaching out of Dorne.

I'd place the Tully's the weakest, because their homelands seem to be the least defensible of the lot and even before the Wot5K is getting started, they are its whipping boys. Neither does it appear that their hosts are huge - even with Robb Stark's reinforcements, they still lack the power to go toe-to-toe with Tywin - not so much of an issue for the Starks, who can stage a fight from the Neck downwards, and who do seem to have strength in reserve even with a full host split in two and fighting in the south (organising that strength is more of an issue though). Neither do I get the impression of the Tully's having much political pull at court or outside Westeros, nor much in the way of mineral or trading wealth.

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In a way I do not disagree with you but I would put the Barratheons at first, they held two council seats and the kingship so i would have put them first. So switch them with the Tryrells at first and that looks about right. I would put the Arryns at 6th because they fell out of favor with the King after Jon died.

i probably should've mentioned that order was before the real WotFK started but after Robert and Ned died and the houses began positioning themselves to win the throne But still before any battles actually occured (other than the very first Stark/Lannister/Tully ones anyway)

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Lets not inderestimate the stormlands who at one point conqured a whole lot. Their domain once extended to the neck, what they lack in quantity they make up for in quality.

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Lets not inderestimate the stormlands who at one point conqured a whole lot. Their domain once extended to the neck, what they lack in quantity they make up for in quality.

I always wondered how they did that, seeing as the Stormlands are supposed to be rather small and pretty infertile...

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I always wondered how they did that, seeing as the Stormlands are supposed to be rather small and pretty infertile...

With raw skill, thats how they did it. The marcher lords are a fierce lot, and some of the best swords in westeros come from there.

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With raw skill, thats how they did it. The marcher lords are a fierce lot, and some of the best swords in westeros come from there.

I suppose so, it just seems rather unlikely. Almost as unlikely as the Ironborn holding the Riverlands and most of the west coast of Westeros...

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