Moments of Foreshadowing 3

[Ser Wun Wun]

Old one got locked, and I had something I wanted to post. Here are links to the old threads, 42 pages of awesomeness:

Moments of Foreshadowing 1

Moments of Foreshadowing 2

I'll start this new thread with some lines from the text that I think foreshadow a future connection/overlap between Arya and Daenerys' storylines. There are a few.

1.) ASOS; Arya - "I wish I had a flaming sword." Arya could think of lots of people she'd like to set on fire.

ADWD; Dany - (Xaro talking) "When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world."

2.) AGOT; Arya - This time the monsters (dragon skulls in the Red Keep) did not frighten her. They seemed almost old friends.

3.) ACOK; Arya - "If I had wings...I'd just fly away, fly up past the moon and the shining stars, and see all the things in Old Nan's stories, dragons and seamonsters and the Titan of Braavos, and maybe I wouldn't ever fly back unless I wanted to"

Dany was the moon of Drogo's life (I tend to think a lot of mentions of the moon are references to her), and of course Arya did see the Titan of Braavos.

4.) This was first noticed by LSB in a previous Moments of Foreshadowing thread, in Post #180

ASOS; Arya - "Have it your way. Three dragons...when you put us ashore safe on the north bank.";

2 pages later - During the ferry's passage: A tangle of roots and limbs poked up out of the water as it came, like the reaching arms of a great kraken.

This is the chapter where Arya and Sandor cross the trident before the RW. The price of passage for Arya to get to the North bank is three dragons. But along the way the ferry is almost pulled under by an uprooted tree that Arya thinks looks like a kraken.

ASOS; Dany - Jorah talking to Dany (paraphrased for length): 'There are dangers at sea as well...The next storm could sink or scatter us, a kraken could pull us under.'

It seems Dany's passage might also be hindered by a kraken...

5.) Finally, and this is more speculation than foreshadowing, I think there is a strong parallel between Dany and Nymeria. Obviously Arya's wolf is named Nymeria. One thing Tze is always pointing out in her brilliant posts is that history often seems to repeat itself in this series, albeit in a usually inverted form. So how would the Nymeria legend invert with Dany?

- The first Nymeria brought her people to Westeros to run from dragons; Dany wants to bring her people to Westeros with dragons.

-Nymeria settled her people in Dorne, the Southernmost portion of Westeros; If history inverts, then Dany would take her people to the North.

Then there is Dany's mounts prophecy, with the last vision in that sequence being a 'blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice.'

Blue flowers are symbolic of Stark maidens (Bael the Bard story). Might it be Arya (the blue flower) that leads Dany to the Wall? They showed Dany at the Wall in the TV show, seems like pretty strong evidence that she will end up there at some point.

[Fire Eater]

"The Wall is yours Lord Bowen"

This is stated by Jon when he leaves the Wall for the weirwood grove for the brothers to take their vows. This foreshadows Bowen Marsh's coup making himself LC, while Jon is in a coma receiving a visit from BR and Bran, who are connected to the weirwoods. To add to that, Maester Aemon tells Jon "The Wall is yours Jon Snow." That foreshadowed Jon becoming LC, so the same could be applied to Marsh.

If King's Landing loses Oldtown and the Arbor, the whole realm will fall to pieces, he [sam] thought

KL will lose Oldtown and the Arbor when Connington aids them when the Ironmen attack, while KL, or rather Cersei, did nothing and even hindered the Redwyne fleet from stopping the Ironmen, winning the allegiance of Lord Hightower of Oldtown and Lord Redwyne of the Arbor.

ETA: Good job Ser Wun Wun I was waiting for this thread to come up. Great catches BTW.

[Little Red Riding Hood]

Continuing with the ideas of the topic: Moments of Foreshadowing 2, I wish answer the post of chris , with my interpretation of the foreshadowing of that scene.

(Sorry for my terrible English,I speak Spanish, but I like both the book,that, even,although I writes very bad, I can not avoid the tremendous temptation of talk about ASOIAF. I can´t finished the day 26:)

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This speaks of a beheading. I think , rather then what you write, really in this scene is foreshadowing the death of Ned (who kills Lady):

"Sansa. Your lord father will see you now. Sansa sat up. "Lady," she whispered. "

Notice that the dress is ruined for Arya is a white dress that the Queen gave to Sansa when she was betrothed to Joffrey. Arya stain the Sansa´s head and the dress until her petticoats, suggesting this future moment , when Sansa, in her innocent vision of wanting to be the queen through marriage to Prince, tells to the Queen the plans of her father and concatenates a series of events that culminate with Ned beheaded, and of course, she eventually can´t marries Joffrey anyway.

If Arya had wanted to kill at the Hound, she could have done it in their journey. In fact, the only explanation I found for George writes this journey of both - is for that she to take him out of her list (as it actually did), and in the future, at least, give him some acceptance into her family.

Even,in their journey together , different people thought that they both are family. So I think it's going out there, become Sandor in the guardian of the Stark.

Another thing, the forgiveness occurs when Sansa wears a green dress (the color of Sansa and Sandor) ( in the tournament and Blackwater-which leads me to think that they are going to have to fight for their relationship, to defend it against the others, not with Arya because she is not in the tournament or in KL during BW) and Sansa will have a look of remorse, that is, I think by then, if I'm interpreting it right, she should be tied to Sandor, but she feels guilty in front of Arya.

Happening in reverse, Sansa will ask forgiving to Arya and both sisters will reach a reconciliation.

Moreover, notice that this phrase , does not seem a phrase of Arya, looks more like Sansa speaking:

"I beg my sweet sister's forgiveness."

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Thank you, Ser Wun Wu ( :

[Little Red Riding Hood]

the last vision in that sequence being a 'blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice.'

Could be Sansa in the "Enchanted Wood"?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Could be Sansa in the "Enchanted Wood"?

I'm pretty sure the blue rose growing out of the ice wall is just representative of Jon. Or more specifically, Rhaegar and Lyanna's union producing Jon.

[Faint]

Given recent events, I wonder if it might also refer to his (coming) resurrection.

[Little Red Riding Hood]

But then, why write "chink"?

Jon is in the castle, the castle is part of the Wall, is the Wall itself, and not a chink in the Wall.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

But then, why write "chink"?

Jon is in the castle, the castle is part of the Wall, is the Wall itself, and not a chink in the Wall.

I'm sorry but this has to be one of the most straightforward visions in the entire thing. A blue rose growing out of a giant wall of ice — Rhaegar gave Lyanna the wreath of blue roses and she was holding blue roses when she died. It's Jon, the product of this union who is also associated with the wall of ice. There is not a single other interpretation that makes nearly as much sense as that. It's Occam's Razor all the way.

[Ragnorak]

<snip>

5.) Finally, and this is more speculation than foreshadowing, I think there is a strong parallel between Dany and Nymeria. Obviously Arya's wolf is named Nymeria. One thing Tze is always pointing out in her brilliant posts is that history often seems to repeat itself in this series, albeit in a usually inverted form. So how would the Nymeria legend invert with Dany?

- The first Nymeria brought her people to Westeros to run from dragons; Dany wants to bring her people to Westeros with dragons.

-Nymeria settled her people in Dorne, the Southernmost portion of Westeros; If history inverts, then Dany would take her people to the North.

<snip>

Speaking of Dany, Nymeria, and Tze... she had a great post touching on this in the Learning to lead thread comparing Dany and Arianne's recollections of Nymeria.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Speaking of Dany, Nymeria, and Tze... she had a great post touching on this in the Learning to lead thread comparing Dany and Arianne's recollections of Nymeria.

Yes that was a great one. :)

[Fire Eater]

@Apple Martini

I'll also add that a blue rose is traditionally associated with people of royal blood. Who do we know of royal blood at the Wall? Jon

but the waves had hammered at it [point of land where Pyke was built] day and night until the land broke and shattered

"I have my voice," the priest replied, "and the god is with me. Mine is the strength of the sea, a strength the Crow's Eye cannot hope to withstand. The waves may break upon the mountain, yet still they come, wave upon wave, and in the end only pebbles remain where once the mountain stood. And soon even the pebbles are swept away, to be ground beneath the sea for all eternity."

The "mountain" may be the pillars holding up Pyke, after BR sends the Hammer of the Waters.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

@Apple Martini

I'll also add that a blue rose is a traditionally associated with people of royal blood. Who do we know of royal blood at the Wall? Jon

but the waves had hammered at it [point of land where Pyke was built] day and night until the land broke and shattered

"I have my voice," the priest replied, "and the god is with me. Mine is the strength of the sea, a strength the Crow's Eye cannot hope to withstand. The waves may break upon the mountain, yet still they come, wave upon wave, and in the end only pebbles remain where once the mountain stood. And soon even the pebbles are swept away, to be ground beneath the sea for all eternity."

The "mountain" may be the pillars holding up Pyke, after BR sends the Hammer of the Waters.

Agreed on both counts. I think the towers washing away that Melisandre sees are from Pyke or Harlaw.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Agreed on both counts. I think the towers washing away that Melisandre sees are from Pyke or Harlaw.

Agreed. plus dany says westeros may be swallowed by waves in dance. Ser wun wun, i think the kracken references vic or euron, not a literal kracken

[Fire Eater]

Agreed on both counts. I think the towers washing away that Melisandre sees are from Pyke or Harlaw.

My money's on Pyke. It is the keep of the liege lords of the Iron Isles, and Victarion mentions that the Targs eventually ended Dagon Greyjoy's reaving, so BR finally had the crown intervene.

BR probably threatened the Greyjoys that if they ever got into their shenanigans again, he would give them the same treatment he gave Lord Butterwell, have their castle torn down. He probably intends to fulfill that promise after he hears of what they're doing now.

[richard_ba]

I'm not sure if this is a foreshadowing, but Arya has been alterning between canine and feline personas during the series, first with Nymeria (Dog), then with Syrio (and hunting and selling mouses in KL) (Cat), while escaping KL to the wall (Dog), then she is caught by the BWB (Cat), again with the Hound (Dog), joining HoBaW (Cat), living as ugly Beth, the blind girl while having dreams through Nymeria's eye (Dog), later on recovering her sight again and being assigned first assassination (Cat), and finnaly being inducted to be a Izembaro's apprentice (Dog)

How can I tell this, I've figured out a lot of dog characteristics within her character, for example, dogs are infamous for fleeing their home and never to return, they also sometimes are bounded to a pack, stray dogs are forced to live either with total or partial blindness and sometimes with skin disfigurements (such as scabs), they are trained as pupils through dressage and she fullfiled several of these characteristics.

[Little Red Riding Hood]

Well, she is the daughter of Ned and Cat (which is now the Un-CAT, ie ..... Do you remember how Sandor had named Arya?)

[Ser Wun Wun]

I'm sorry but this has to be one of the most straightforward visions in the entire thing. A blue rose growing out of a giant wall of ice — Rhaegar gave Lyanna the wreath of blue roses and she was holding blue roses when she died. It's Jon, the product of this union who is also associated with the wall of ice. There is not a single other interpretation that makes nearly as much sense as that. It's Occam's Razor all the way.

My interpretation still involves Jon. He is at the Wall afterall, not likely to leave since that is where his war is, and is probably the love Arya is leading Dany to. The "chink" in the wall also makes sense because Jon's love for Arya is a weakness in his resolve to keep his NW vows, a "chink" in his commitment to the Wall so to speak.

I think all of the "mounts" are simply things that lead Dany to places where her life is altered dramatically, they are not direct references to husbands (else why is Hizdahr not in them?). The 1st vision is of the Silver horse that led Dany to the streambed where Drogo bedded her, making her a Khaleesi and altering her life forever. The 2nd vision is of a Greyjoy (the corpse is either Vic or Euron) who is going to lead Dany to Westeros via ships, where the 2nd act of her life essentially starts. The dread comes from either the Greyjoys themselves, the prospect of coming to a land she has been fantasizing about since childhood, or what she finds in Westeros. The place is war torn afterall, and Dany isn't like to find many natural allies if she is bringing thousands of foreigners with her.

Agreed. plus dany says westeros may be swallowed by waves in dance. Ser wun wun, i think the kracken references vic or euron, not a literal kracken

I know that. :P

Although re-reading my post I can see I didn't really make that clear at all. :dunce:

EDIT: Although...

ASOS; Tyrion - (Varys speaking to the council) "A kraken has been seen off the Fingers." He giggled. "Not a Greyjoy, mind you, a true kraken. It attacked a Ibbenese whaler and pulled it under."

Mayhaps they shall see both? :o

[StuSeaworth]

Probably been done before but:

Jaime aSoS: Had Cersei remembered him afterward and hired this man Lady Catelyn spoke of, to make sure the boy never woke? If she wanted him dead she would have sent me. And it is not like her to chose a catspaw who would make such a royal botch of the killing.

[flidderman]

I'm not sure if this is a foreshadowing, but Arya has been alterning between canine and feline personas during the series, first with Nymeria (Dog), then with Syrio (and hunting and selling mouses in KL) (Cat), while escaping KL to the wall (Dog), then she is caught by the BWB (Cat), again with the Hound (Dog), joining HoBaW (Cat), living as ugly Beth, the blind girl while having dreams through Nymeria's eye (Dog), later on recovering her sight again and being assigned first assassination (Cat), and finnaly being inducted to be a Izembaro's apprentice (Dog)

How can I tell this, I've figured out a lot of dog characteristics within her character, for example, dogs are infamous for fleeing their home and never to return, they also sometimes are bounded to a pack, stray dogs are forced to live either with total or partial blindness and sometimes with skin disfigurements (such as scabs), they are trained as pupils through dressage and she fullfiled several of these characteristics.

I think this is definitely illustrative of her ongoing internal conflict between her pack instinct (dog side) and her inclination towards aloneness (cat side). I guess this will culminate in her choice between becoming a bona fide Faceless Man or rejoining her family.

[Ser Wun Wun]

I think there is foreshadowing for the 2nd Dance of Dragons war between Dany and Aegon in her first ASOS chapter. While talking to Jorah, Dany tosses a piece of pork up in the air for Drogon to eat, this is what happens:

Drogon moved quicker than a striking cobra. Flame roared from his mouth, orange and scarlet and black, searing the meat before it began to fall. As his sharp black teeth snapped shut around it, Rhaegal's head darted close, as if to steal the prize from his brother's jaws, but Drogon swallowed and screamed, and the smaller green dragon could only hiss in frustration.

"Stop that, Rhaegal," Dany said in annoyance, giving his head a swat. "You had the last one. I'll have no greedy dragons."

The "pork prize" is the Iron Throne, and Aegon (Rhaegal) will try to take it from Dany (Drogon). Aegon is on a swift course to take it as we speak, but it seems as though Dany will be swooping in with a rather large army and 3 dragons eventually, meaning Aegon might have little choice but to bend to her will.

Then on the next page of that same chapter (this is likely more speculation than foreshadowing)...

"The warlocks in Qarth told you that you would be betrayed three times," the exile knight reminded her, as Viserion and Rhaegal began to snap and claw at eachother."

I've lately considered the idea that Dany's "three treasons" all refer to one catastrophic event of betrayal in her life, perpetrated primarily by 3 people for 3 different reasons (blood, gold and love). Strictly speaking, a betrayal only counts as "treason" if the betrayer has sworn allegience or fealty to the betrayed. So suppose Dany comes to Westeros with her massive army, she demands and gets oaths of allegience from Aegon and his people and then they betray her. Now that would qualify as treason I think...

This also ties into the theory in my first post that Arya will lead Dany North to the Wall. Dany survives the betrayal (though probably losing one or more dragon), but instead of fleeing to Essos again, she goes North at Arya's insistence, and makes an alliance with Jon and his people (Arya goes a long way towards making that happen I believe). Now we would suddenly have Jon (Viserion) and Aegon (Rhaegal again) "snapping and clawing at each other" and the 2nd Dance of the Dragons war is in full swing.

Minor addendum, looking back at the HOTU chapter the Undying tell Dany of the "things in 3's" she will experience and then show her 9 visions in the following paragraph. I think the "mounts" are the only aspect of "things in 3's" that actually get visions though. The "3 fires" and the "3 treasons" don't get visions imo, cause if they do then my above speculation doesn't really work :P