What if Stannis was the king's Hand instead of Ned?

[James Arryn]

I'll be like the 10th poster to point out that the Hand does not appoint the Small Council. Only the King does that.

I think Joff's minority status and the Regency have maybe confused this issue for some.

[thewingedwolf]

I think he would have had to bring on Ned in some function or another on the small council to have someone else to join him in bringing Robert the evidence of Cersei and Jaime's incest. Then a number of things could happen:

1) An agreement is worked out with Tywin Lannister where, in exchange for the crown's debt to be forgiven, Jaime takes the black, Cersei is confined to Casterly Rock where her children are treated as highborn bastards (they could reveal that Cersei had an affair with someone they need blamed for this and Jaime knew and said nothing).

2) Robert refuses to believe it. Ned goes back North. Robert dies in the hunt, Stannis raises his banners. We have a war of three knigs instead of 5 (a war that Stannis likely win because of support from the North and the Riverlands).

3) Robert loses his mind, refer to previous post about everyone dying.

[Pod The Impaler]

No one here is denying Ned's mistake. We all wish he had done things differently.

We are all enlightened by what you think. However, the reality is, that Stannis--knowing all the things you mentioned about hair color, Baratheon family traits, and Robert's bastards--did not act. He fled. Took his ball and went home, as the expressing goes. Your theory falls to pieces when you realize that Stannis already had the opportunity to do all the "good ideas" you say he could or would have. He didn't talk to Renly, didnt talk to Barristan, sent no raven to Ned, made no attempt to arrest anyone for treason.

A poor decision, to be sure, and very strange. A Hand can do more than a Master of Ships, but it is extremely odd to see Stannis back out of something like that. Unless he figured he'd otherwise be dead before Jon Arryn was even cold. perhaps Melisandre showed him something.

[James Arryn]

I would use stronger language than 'poor decision'.

His choice to abandon Robert to his fate and sulk or hide in Dragonstone is one of the strongest reasons why I cannot agree with the version of him so many of his strongest fans seem to see. He can be righteous, brave, honest, all that. But to not see how his own agenda comes first when it conflicts with being those things is IMO to overlook events like this.

Renly didn't know the details, but he knew there was trouble and stuck around, trying to lessen Lannister power. Weak, brittle, empty Renly. Strong, brave, tell it like it is Stannis ducked out to Dragonstone without a word to the brother he

knew to be in a perilous position.

Edit: and, as with the brother he assassinated, when we see Stannis reflect on the brother he abandoned, all his thoughts go to the wrongs he felt Robert did him! I don't get how these things go together to form the badass truth or die guy some would have us believe he is. He has badass moments, for sure. But he also has several whiney-brat looking out for #1 when push comes to shove moments.

Truth, I used to like Stannis a lot more than I do now. Arguing against this idealized version has sadly eroded my appreciation for the real guy. When I first came here, I would have had a hard time saying whether I liked he or Renly more.

[Pod The Impaler]

From the Wiki: Upon arriving at King's Landing Eddard was shocked to learn that the crown was heavily indebted due to Robert's extravagance, and Arryn and the Small Council had been unable to restrain him. So, if Stannis had been appointed Hand, the reasonable belief, is that this would have been his primary focus. Basically doing his best to whip his fat lazy brother back into sense. And restore order. Although realy, he'd just be the Hand, not the King, so I would still taper my expectations.

Not doubting he'd have to deal with that too. Just that the budget and order issues would take a back seat to the issue of "the Queen is a cuckolding traitor, Jon Arryn was murdered for knowing it, and my brother is too drunk to realize it".

The best counter-argument is that he was so wrapped up in his bitterness, he begrudged working with anyone at all. That's basically what you have argued - that as of AGOT, he did go off to sulk on Dragonstone. But that's missing the point. If (by strange turn of alternate history) he was offered the much more powerful position of Hand (to a largely absentee king) what would he do then ?

Should we taper expecations ? Yes, certainly. Downplay, minimize, assume inertia. Chances that Stannis would be able to out-nag Cersei to put some sense into Robert and some better people on the council ? Not all that great. (After all, Ned was a trusted friend, yet had a hard enough time dealing with Robert's excesses and willful blindness.) But if Stannis somehow could, then how to proceed, and with whom ?

Stannis would not have been too kind to keep the truth from Robert (especially on Robert's deathbed), or hesitate because he felt soft-hearted towards Cersei's children. He already pretty much hated the courtiers in King's Landing, so affronting or disposing of the dodgy ones would cause him no sleepless nights.

I think if he had all the proof Jon Arryn (and eventually Eddard) did, or had a chance to convince others (such as Renly) who would have some self-interest in supporting the truth, I say he would have gone ahead with it. Yes, to Robert, he was ever the disgruntled younger brother, but I think he is no fool - even in the books he acknowledged he'd not be believed if he made the accusation by himself. So he would have to have present the evidence and accusations to someone else - preferably someone who he can at least trust to have an interest in the Lannisters' secret coming out. It is not required that they like each other.

I named Renly, and maybe Eddard Stark as the likely choices - and with them come two people who are closer to Robert than he ever was, and who also happen to have command of the North and Stormlands (and some likely allies in the Riverlands and Reach). I named Ser Barristan as another possibility because he is someone dutiful enough to place the King's interests first (and who also happens to have the best chance of protecting the King when the shit finally hits the fan).

Stannis would not be not one to just shove it under the rug and hand the realm to the Lannisters via a bastard born of treasonous incest. Especially when the royal clock is counting down because the king, his brother, was already taking himself to an early grave even if no conspirators decided to "help" him reach it sooner.

So, if you have another theory on what Stannis would do, if he were named Hand by Robert after Jon Arryn, and used what he knew about the royal heirs' bastardy, let's hear it.

Take what we know about Stannis' personality and knowledge and plug it into that situation, and see what comes out. This is not "What if Stannis rode into the Red Keep on a unicorn wearing naught but a Celtics uniform and a party hat?" thread. All the OP did was change one thing - Stannis is chosen instead of Eddard Stark. It happens to throw a wrench into one of the core events of the story, but that's okay.

I would use stronger language than 'poor decision'.

His choice to abandon Robert to his fate and sulk or hide in Dragonstone is one of the strongest reasons why I cannot agree with the version of him so many of his strongest fans seem to see. He can be righteous, brave, honest, all that. But to not see how his own agenda comes first when it conflicts with being those things is IMO to overlook events like this.

I don't doubt it. He can be very blinkered when his mind gets set a certain way. I'm one of those who has called it "sulking on Dragonstone" previously in other threads besides this one.

Yet his motivation for doing so is not well known. Did he feel affronted once again by Robert ? Yes. Did he already think he could trust nobody in King's landing at all ? Yes. Did he probably think whoever murdered Jon Arryn would come after him next ? Yes. Did he think that at the time, if he got into open conflict with the Lannisters, he would lose ? Yes. Did Melisandre probably have something to do with the decision ? Probably.

And yet, he was not Hand when it took place. It's a different enough thing to be worth the OP making a thread for it.

What would others (Lannisters, LF, etc.) do if he was named Hand ? Probably try to kill him, ASAP. Faster or slower than they killed Ned ? Place your bets.

[GallowsKnight]

I've been trying to think about this soberly without all my "wooh-Stannis!" fanboyism. Forgive me if I'm not quite there yet.

Stannis did flee Kingslanding. He brought his suspicions to Jon Arryn, Jon Arryn died and so he fled in fear of his life. While he most likely did sulk about Ned's appointment (it's in his nature), that was not the main cause for his absence, the other courtiers (even Lannisters) who speculate this aren't privy to all the facts.

But Stannis is dutiful. If he was asked to return he would. But I don't think he'd come for nagging and politics, he'd come to tell Robert and arrest the Lannisters as soon as he could.

Stannis has too chief advantages in this situation:

-Surprise. The Lannisters didn't kill Jon Arryn, Littlefinger did. But Stannis doesn't know this, he thinks its all part of their plans. So any counter attack of his is actually going to appear unexpectedly

-The Royal Navy. Ned had few men in Kingslanding, that's why he had to turn to Renly or Littlefinger. Stannis has thousands of loyal men, the closet thing to full-time soldiers who've been commanded by him for 15 years and during one war. And as they're the Royal Navy it's not suspicious to bring them to the capital.

I think it's going to get very bloody soon. There's no definite outcome, especially if the Goldcloaks sided with the Queen. But really could it have turned out worse than Ned?

[James Arryn]

Re: dutiful.

Duty. You find out your brother and king are surrounded by traitors.

Where does your FIRST duty lie? Self preservation, or protect your brother or king?

2 further points.

1) Even if a LF could/would argue the former, the bad-ass Stannis as portrayed never could.

2) It's not just that he bailed...he bailed without letting anyone alive know the about the danger. So, he would have returned if Robert asked it of him...maybe...but Robert wasn't in a position to know it was needed. Because Stannis didn't tell anyone after Jon Arryn died. And Robert isn't just his brother and King...Robert is the man without whom Stannis would be just another Second Son, with none of the 'rights' due him he seems to chew about day and

night.

He doesn't have to be Hand for sulking in Dragonstone and warning exactly no one to be both wrong and contrary to the Stannis legend. He has to be a brother, a loyal Lord, a brave man. All of which he often seems to be... but not always, and surprisingly often not when those run contrary to his interests.

[Victor227]

One thing is that even as Hand, Stannis couldn't touch the Lannisters, nor could he approach Robert from the same angle as Ned. It's pointed out that A: Robert and Stannis don't get along at all, and Robert's never liked him, and B: Stannis is the heir if Cersei's children are de-legitimized. From Robert's perspective, if Stannis came to him with his 'evidence' (which really isn't hard at all) he'd be brushed off as at best, jealously trying to worm his way into succession, or at worst, spouting treason.

Even Ned wasn't absolutely sure what he could/should do until he spoke with Cersei, and he had far better 'Robert cred' and nothing to gain from screwing up the succession.

[James Arryn]

One thing is that even as Hand, Stannis couldn't touch the Lannisters, nor could he approach Robert from the same angle as Ned. It's pointed out that A: Robert and Stannis don't get along at all, and Robert's never liked him, and B: Stannis is the heir if Cersei's children are de-legitimized. From Robert's perspective, if Stannis came to him with his 'evidence' (which really isn't hard at all) he'd be brushed off as at best, jealously trying to worm his way into succession, or at worst, spouting treason.

Even Ned wasn't absolutely sure what he could/should do until he spoke with Cersei, and he had far better 'Robert cred' and nothing to gain from screwing up

the succession.

Right. But going directly to Robert for a man to man and running away to Dragonstone with nary a word aren't the only options. And if thy were, Badass Myrights chooses A.

Edit: what would Davos do? What HAS Davos done, when it was choose between safety and duty? I think Davos is a lot more the Stannis legend than Stannis himself.

[Victor227]

Right. But going directly to Robert for a man to man and running away to Dragonstone with nary a word aren't the only options. And if thy were, Badass Myrights chooses A.

Indeed, mostly addressing the whole "If Stannis were Hand, the world would be right" crowd. I do think it's odd though that he forsook his brothers in King's Landing and fled to Dragonstone. I mean, wouldn't the whole 'duty above all else' thing compel him to privately speak to Robert and Renly regardless of how they would react? It did seem to be a bitter move to flee, like a "See if I care what happens!" move.

[naik2902]

stannis : hi bro......i want to tell u something.

robert: what?

stannis: actually......actually.......actually......

robert: u ok.....why u stammering.......u look very nervous.

stannis: well .....the thing is...yourrrrr....

robert: tell me fast ....i have no time.........i m getting late for...

stannis. ur grace......the queen is cheating on u.....

robert: ok...

stannis: so u ok with that ?

robert: yes....i knew it the whole time..

stannis: so u already knew joffery,tommen and myrcella is not ur children ??

robert: yes.... i knew....but who cares as long as lannisters are our bank.....now if u r done then please ....

stannis: ok...boss.

robert: well, if u like to join me then u can.......my order has just arrived

stannis: what order ?

robert : imported boobies each from all 9 free cities.......its time to make NINE....hahahah...

[SaltSmokeAndSnow]

The best counter-argument is that he was so wrapped up in his bitterness, he begrudged working with anyone at all. That's basically what you have argued - that as of AGOT, he did go off to sulk on Dragonstone. But that's missing the point. If (by strange turn of alternate history) he was offered the much more powerful position of Hand (to a largely absentee king) what would he do then ?

Ugh Pod, you disappoint me. I thought we were done with this. :ohwell: That's not been my argument at all. Stannis fleeing to Dragonstone is NOT an argument. It's a fact. My argument has been that the point of this thread is to ignore facts, and rewrite the first book. It's pointless. What if Tywin left Kevan in command of his forces and rode to KL to serve as hand instead of Tyrion? What if Jon Snow killed Ygritte the mement he saw her? What if Dany was really hungry that day and ate the locusts? We can sit here and play god all day but there's no point, and worse, it's annoying. Especially when the fact is Robert would have been more likely to name Jaime Lannister Hand before considering Stannis.

You cant go back and change things without literally manipulating established character traits. Since we're going to manipulate what is known about Robert and Stannis' relationship, let's not stop there. Why is Robert all of a sudden such a different person? Maybe he's not such a drunk. And since he's not such a drunk, I bet every once in a while he's actually gonna make love to his queen. Oops, he has a natural son now. Oh, I'm sorry, that doesn't fit your manipulated version of GRRM's vision. Well, fuck me, arn't I a right prick. There's a bufferfly effect, you can't just change the things you want to change, and nothing else.

[brzibrzi]

how much influence did melisandre have with stannis at the time jon arryn died? when did she come to dragonstone? would stannis take her to KL if he was the hand?