What if Stannis was the king's Hand instead of Ned?

[turinturambar1]

Bob doesnt run the kingdom. His hand does, meaning the hand would have free reign except for a few issues(dany and brothels)

bob didn't listen to ned , and he loved him and respected him more than stannis

[E-Ro]

bob didn't listen to ned , and he loved him and respected him more than stannis

There was only a few times bob didnt listen to ned. Most of the time robert was whoring and drinking. Not running the kingdoms, if stannis is hand he will uncover alot of bull in kl and once things are revealed to robert its game over for the schemers.

[SaltSmokeAndSnow]

First thing Stannis would do as Hand is scour out the corrupt cesspit of a court in KL:

1. Varys beheaded, for treason, espionage, etc, take your pick, (basically Stannis mistrusts him).

2. Littlefinger beheaded for massive corruption. Janos Slynt dismissed from the City Watch (and possibly beheaded).

3. Stannis would then pick his own men for Master of Coin, Master of Whispers and Commander of the City Watch.

1. What solid evidence does Stannis (or anyone) have on Varys to find him guilty of treason or espionage? He might mistrust him to the point of removing him from the small council, but behead him? No way.

2. Same question. LF and Varys are guilty as sin, but there are no two people better at covering their tracks and hiding their true intentions better than them. LF and Varys are probably the two best players of "the game", and without evidence against them (which there is none), Stannis would end up being just another piece like so many others.

3. It would still be up to the King, not the Hand, to appoint the new members of the small council.

[Victor227]

Robert appointing Stannis would have meant that he was condoning the changes he'd bring about. So really, the subject is more 'what if Robert approved of Stannis and his views' rather than 'what if Robert had appointed Stannis Hand'.

There's a reason Robert went to Ned instead of Stannis. Stannis' views were well-known and his reputation solidified. Robert didn't want someone with rigid moral standards who would tear things up. He wanted another 'buddy' of his to come maintain the status quo while he drank and whored and boar'd his way to an early grave.

Giving Stannis the Handship, with his experience and views in King's Landing would have been giving him a mandate, wheras Ned was a newcomer expected to be a trustworthy guy to maintain the status quo. Robert's Hands were more open palms than anything else, he didn't particularly want one with fingers to go around grabbing and changing things.

[GallowsKnight]

A lot of people aren't realising that Melissandre appears 'after' Stannis flees, he wouldn't appear as a black magic herectic by that point.

Stannis would have been as ineffective as Ned, if not more so. He is too rigid to wield power in the conditions that were set. Robert wouldn't value his council. Varys, Cersei, Littlefinger, Renly, and Pycelle would not tolerate him and seek to depose him. He would have ended up as dead as Arryn and Stark.

I love Ned but he was a terrible choice for political intrigue. Stannis more so. His no-nonsense approach to cleaning up corruption would bring him down before he could clear out the council. His antagonism toward brothels would be unpopular with the citizenry, Littlefinger and Robert.

It is probably not an accident that GRRM went out of his way to have every major playing in KL comment on what a disaster Stannis would be as king in AGoT

The thing is Ned completely misunderstood how powerful he was as Hand, he does a lot of asking and debating when he can simply order. When the King is busy whoring and drinking, the Hand is King in all but name.

Renly, Littlefinger, Varys and Pycelle would turn up for a small council meeting and find their seats filled by new members. Renly would be politely asked to return to Storm's End, Pycelle to the citadel and Littlefinger to the Vale. Varys not so much, he'd be lucky if Suggs and some other cronies don't take him back to the cells in Dragonstone.

All of the people who criticize Stannis are people who would lose out under his tenure, they're not going to compliment him.

First thing Stannis would do as Hand is scour out the corrupt cesspit of a court in KL:

1. Varys beheaded, for treason, espionage, etc, take your pick, (basically Stannis mistrusts him).

2. Littlefinger beheaded for massive corruption. Janos Slynt dismissed from the City Watch (and possibly beheaded).

3. Stannis would then pick his own men for Master of Coin, Master of Whispers and Commander of the City Watch.

4. Wait for the right time, and then bring forth a large body of evidence to King Bob (all his bastards and the book of geneaology showing historical Baratheon-Lannister marriages, and also pointing out that he, Renly and Shireen have the same hair and eye colour) about the incest, but not before quickly and with surprise (similar to what he did to Arnolf Karstark in the gift TWOW chapter) arresting both Cersei and Jaime and holding them securely. Flooding the Red Keep with Baratheon soldiers, while disarming and capturing the Lannister soldiers would also be a priority.

5. King Bob then loses his shit, and orders both Cersei and Jaime's executions in a rage. The three royal children are unfortunately executed as well, (Stannis may come to be seen publicly as a 'evil/bloodthirsty uncle-vizier' after this, but he doesn't give a shit).

6. War is declared on House Lannister - the newly-single and childless King Bob calls his banners, and the Stormlands, Crownlands, North, Riverlands, Vale, Reach and Dorne respond. The Westerlands is ravaged and utterly defeated, and Tywin is probably killed (he won't bend the knee to those who killed his precious twins). House Lannister surrenders, and some surviving senior member (maybe Kevan) is made Lord of Casterly Rock and Lord Paramount of the Westerlands. Hostages are taken and financial penalties paid, as per usual. Needless to say, the entirety of the crown's debt to the Lannisters is wiped away. (King Bob wasn't about exterminating families, and it would be impractical anyway with the large Lannister brood).

7. King Bob marries Margaery, but with Stannis as Hand the Tyrells won't be accumulating the same amount of power and influence that the Lannisters previously had in the royal court. King Bob has several trueborn children, and their upbringing is mostly entrusted to Margaery and the master-at-arms, soldiers and maesters of the Red Keep (basically similar to Edric Storm's upbringing).

8. Stannis spends the remainder of King Bob's reign trying to forestall a fiscal cliff and bring the national debt under control, and countering Renly's ambitions.

I wonder what his new council would be? I don't think he'd keep Renly even though he's kin.

I could see:

Grandmaester: Cressen - the only Maester Stannis would trust

Lord-commander of Cityguard - Jacelyn Bywater (rigid and strict) with Clayton Suggs as second in command.

Master of Whispers: Davos Seaworth - practiced smuggler, consorts with pirates and we see is good at intelligence gathering

Master of Ships: Monford Velaryon - Likely a capable enough Naval commander

Master of Coin: Adrian Celtigar - He seems quite good with money

Master of Law: Alester Florent - Loyal and family.

With the Royal Navy, Stannis', Velaryon's, Celitgar's and Florent's personal guard and hopefully the Goldcloaks he's got a lot of manpower in Kingslanding.

[Pod The Impaler]

Stannis would have been as ineffective as Ned, if not more so. He is too rigid to wield power in the conditions that were set. Robert wouldn't value his council. Varys, Cersei, Littlefinger, Renly, and Pycelle would not tolerate him and seek to depose him. He would have ended up as dead as Arryn and Stark.

I love Ned but he was a terrible choice for political intrigue. Stannis more so. His no-nonsense approach to cleaning up corruption would bring him down before he could clear out the council. His antagonism toward brothels would be unpopular with the citizenry, Littlefinger and Robert.

It is probably not an accident that GRRM went out of his way to have every major playing in KL comment on what a disaster Stannis would be as king in AGoT

Stannis would be more apt to move ruthlessly in regard to the charges towards Cersei and effect the removal of the weak and corrupt, well more than Eddard in any case. Probably more politically savvy about placing tying-in certain other lords to ensure their loyalty.

However, as you say Cersei, Littlefinger, Pycelle, the High Septon, Varys, and even Renly would feel quite threatened and likely all band together to oppose him and get rid of him fast. Likely the very fact he'd have to be paranoid to survive would give them ammunition to say that he's paranoid.

However, he could make peace with Renly on the grounds of being Baratheons and serving the family interest. Whether that holds or not, if Renly knew the incest secret, his plan regarding Margery Tyrell could be rapidly advanced in exchange. (And then they both tell Robert - and Ser Barristan.)

Varys, oddly enough, would be ambivalent. His cause (as we know now) is the Targaryens, so he might keep Stannis in the game just to prolong his conflict with the Lannisters and such. Stannis' distaste for him would be more of a factor than Varys' distrust of Stannis. In an odd way, I can see them as temporary allies. They both serve the interests of the realm, as they see it.

Littlefinger would feign acceptance of Stannis, but for their "few" moral differences. Really, he'd be working to get rid of him from the outset.

Cersei and Jaime would oppose Stannis at every turn, and so would Joffrey. In the background, Tywin Lannister would prepare for war.

Smart moves for Stannis:

1 - Tell Renly the big secret about Jaime and Cersei soon. Explain the proof, and if Renly thinks it self serving, make a deal with Renly about the Margaery marriage, so Robert will have trueborn heirs. Consider telling Eddard Stark, sending any info clandestinely. (Also, tell Ser Barristan, because he has honour and brains, and someone will try to knock off Robert and him as soon as they can.)

2 - Once you are Hand, have Davos appointed Master of Ships. Name bronze Yohn Royce as Warden of the East (but not lord of the Eyrie) until Sweetrobin comes of age. Offer to foster Sweetrobin with Shireen on Dragonstone, but with the understanding that if she wishes to mother him at the Eyrie alone, it will not be taken as an offense. Replace the head of the Gold Cloaks with someone like Randyll Tarly or Beric Dondarrion and the King's Justice with a someone like Balon Swann. Have Melisandre spying on Varys especially, to know what he is up to. If he cannot be trusted, confine him to Dragonstone under guard and make melisandre the MoW.

3 - When the time is right, present evidence of Cersei and Jaime's treason, and the bastardy of Cersei's children to the King. When you do this, arrest Cersei, Jaime, and all their children. Isolate the children (especially the younger two) so they are both hostages and also safe from Robert's immediate rage. There will be trials, executions, and such. Or there will be a war when House Lannister responds, but by then their allies will be few. The North, the Stormlands, the Vale (under Royce), and the Reach will answer the royal call.

The biggest problem for Stannis really will be that given Melisandre's prophecies, she will want him to become King himself, not Hand. If he overreaches, that would be the end of him.

[otherbeef]

"The storms come and go, the waves crash overhead, the big fish eat the little fish, and I keep on paddling"

I hate to say it but i also think that Varys would be able to get Stannis killed before he implements too many changes. Or LF.

[SaltSmokeAndSnow]

Stannis would be more apt to move ruthlessly in regard to the charges towards Cersei and effect the removal of the weak and corrupt, well more than Eddard in any case. Probably more politically savvy about placing tying-in certain other lords to ensure their loyalty.

However, as you say Cersei, Littlefinger, Pycelle, the High Septon, Varys, and even Renly would feel quite threatened and likely all band together to oppose him and get rid of him fast. Likely the very fact he'd have to be paranoid to survive would give them ammunition to say that he's paranoid.

However, he could make peace with Renly on the grounds of being Baratheons and serving the family interest. Whether that holds or not, if Renly knew the incest secret, his plan regarding Margery Tyrell could be rapidly advanced in exchange. (And then they both tell Robert - and Ser Barristan.)

Varys, oddly enough, would be ambivalent. His cause (as we know now) is the Targaryens, so he might keep Stannis in the game just to prolong his conflict with the Lannisters and such. Stannis' distaste for him would be more of a factor than Varys' distrust of Stannis. In an odd way, I can see them as temporary allies. They both serve the interests of the realm, as they see it.

Littlefinger would feign acceptance of Stannis, but for their "few" moral differences. Really, he'd be working to get rid of him from the outset.

Cersei and Jaime would oppose Stannis at every turn, and so would Joffrey. In the background, Tywin Lannister would prepare for war.

Smart moves for Stannis:

1 - Tell Renly the big secret about Jaime and Cersei soon. Explain the proof, and of Renly thinks it self serving, make a deal with Renly about the Margaery marriage, so Robert will have trueborn heirs. Consider telling Eddard Stark, sending any info clandestinely. (Also, tell Ser Barristan, because he has honour and brains, and someone will try to knock off Robert and him as soon as they can.)

2 - Once you are Hand, have Davos appointed Master of Ships. Name bronze Yohn Royce as Warden of the East (but not lord of the Eyrie) until Sweetrobin comes of age. Offer to foster Sweetrobin with Shireen on Dragonstone, but with the understanding that if she wishes to mother him at the Eyrie alone, it will not be taken as an offense. Replace the head of the Gold Cloaks with someone like Randyll Tarly or Beric Dondarrion and the King's Justice with a someone like Balon Swann. Have Melisandre spying on Varys especially, to know what he is up to. If he cannot be trusted, confine him to Dragonstone under guard and make melisandre the MoW.

3 - When the time is right, present evidence of Cersei and Jaime's treason, and the bastardy of Cersei's children to the King. When you do this, arrest Cersei, Jaime, and all their children. Isolate the children (especially the younger two) so they are both hostages and also safe from Robert's immediate rage. There will be trials, executions, and such. Or there will be a war when House Lannister responds, but by then their allies will be few. The North, the Stormlands, the Vale (under Royce), and the Reach will answer the royal call.

The biggest problem for Stannis really will be that given Melisandre's prophecies, she will want him to become King himself, not hand. If he overreaches, that would be the end of him.

I'm sorry this is just getting silly. Are we rereading, or rewriting these books? And at least have enough respect for GRRM to know that what youre saying makes no sense and had zero chance of happening. Like, what are we doing here? Lol. Maybe we can form a discussion on what five characters would make the best basketball team? Seriously, it wouldn't be this far fetched. :rolleyes:

[E-Ro]

Stannis would be more apt to move ruthlessly in regard to the charges towards Cersei and effect the removal of the weak and corrupt, well more than Eddard in any case. Probably more politically savvy about placing tying-in certain other lords to ensure their loyalty.

However, as you say Cersei, Littlefinger, Pycelle, the High Septon, Varys, and even Renly would feel quite threatened and likely all band together to oppose him and get rid of him fast. Likely the very fact he'd have to be paranoid to survive would give them ammunition to say that he's paranoid.

However, he could make peace with Renly on the grounds of being Baratheons and serving the family interest. Whether that holds or not, if Renly knew the incest secret, his plan regarding Margery Tyrell could be rapidly advanced in exchange. (And then they both tell Robert - and Ser Barristan.)

Varys, oddly enough, would be ambivalent. His cause (as we know now) is the Targaryens, so he might keep Stannis in the game just to prolong his conflict with the Lannisters and such. Stannis' distaste for him would be more of a factor than Varys' distrust of Stannis. In an odd way, I can see them as temporary allies. They both serve the interests of the realm, as they see it.

Littlefinger would feign acceptance of Stannis, but for their "few" moral differences. Really, he'd be working to get rid of him from the outset.

Cersei and Jaime would oppose Stannis at every turn, and so would Joffrey. In the background, Tywin Lannister would prepare for war.

Smart moves for Stannis:

1 - Tell Renly the big secret about Jaime and Cersei soon. Explain the proof, and of Renly thinks it self serving, make a deal with Renly about the Margaery marriage, so Robert will have trueborn heirs. Consider telling Eddard Stark, sending any info clandestinely. (Also, tell Ser Barristan, because he has honour and brains, and someone will try to knock off Robert and him as soon as they can.)

2 - Once you are Hand, have Davos appointed Master of Ships. Name bronze Yohn Royce as Warden of the East (but not lord of the Eyrie) until Sweetrobin comes of age. Offer to foster Sweetrobin with Shireen on Dragonstone, but with the understanding that if she wishes to mother him at the Eyrie alone, it will not be taken as an offense. Replace the head of the Gold Cloaks with someone like Randyll Tarly or Beric Dondarrion and the King's Justice with a someone like Balon Swann. Have Melisandre spying on Varys especially, to know what he is up to. If he cannot be trusted, confine him to Dragonstone under guard and make melisandre the MoW.

3 - When the time is right, present evidence of Cersei and Jaime's treason, and the bastardy of Cersei's children to the King. When you do this, arrest Cersei, Jaime, and all their children. Isolate the children (especially the younger two) so they are both hostages and also safe from Robert's immediate rage. There will be trials, executions, and such. Or there will be a war when House Lannister responds, but by then their allies will be few. The North, the Stormlands, the Vale (under Royce), and the Reach will answer the royal call.

The biggest problem for Stannis really will be that given Melisandre's prophecies, she will want him to become King himself, not hand. If he overreaches, that would be the end of him.

I agree.

[Alester Florent]

Maybe we can form a discussion on what five characters would make the best basketball team? Seriously, it wouldn't be this far fetched. :rolleyes:

The Clegane brothers, Khal Drogo, Hodor and Wun Weg.

[SaltSmokeAndSnow]

The Clegane brothers, Khal Drogo, Hodor and Wun Weg.

:agree:

[otherbeef]

The Clegane brothers, Khal Drogo, Hodor and Wun Weg.

good size but you need Jaime Lannister running the point

[Philip Baratheon]

I don't know what he would have done while Robert was still alive; he would have wanted to clean house but his suggestions on the council such as dismissing Slynt and perhaps even getting rid of Varys were denied by Robert, so the question is whether Robert would let him do that now that he were Hand of the King, but I know he would not have given Cersei the chance to flee with her children.

I don't know what he would have done about the twincest. Without Jon Arryn, he would have great difficulty bringing the matter to Robert's attention - see what he says to Catelyn and Renly at the parley. I mean, had he been in Ned's position when Robert was dying, he would have seized control of Joffrey and then installed himself as King. That might have been bad PR but he would have done it. But I don't know if he would have found himself in that position. I don't know, maybe he would have confided in Renly, and hoped that the testimony of both brothers would have been the equal of Jon Arryn's; thus setting in motion "Operation Margaery"?

[Pod The Impaler]

I'm sorry this is just getting silly. Are we rereading, or rewriting these books? And at least have enough respect for GRRM to know that what youre saying makes no sense and had zero chance of happening. Like, what are we doing here? Lol. Maybe we can form a discussion on what five characters would make the best basketball team? Seriously, it wouldn't be this far fetched. :rolleyes:

We have nothing but time to kill until the next book(s) come out.

Speculation passes the time well, or else this forum would have not much to talk about.

[SaltSmokeAndSnow]

We have nothing but time to kill until the next book(s) come out.

Speculation passes the time well, or else this forum would have not much to talk about.

No I get all that. It's healthy to exercise your imagination and this is a great place for that. But there's gotta be somewhere to draw the line.

Smart moves for Stannis:

1 - Tell Renly the big secret about Jaime and Cersei soon. Explain the proof, and if Renly thinks it self serving, make a deal with Renly about the Margaery marriage, so Robert will have trueborn heirs. Consider telling Eddard Stark, sending any info clandestinely. (Also, tell Ser Barristan, because he has honour and brains, and someone will try to knock off Robert and him as soon as they can.)

3 - When the time is right, present evidence of Cersei and Jaime's treason, and the bastardy of Cersei's children to the King. When you do this, arrest Cersei, Jaime, and all their children. Isolate the children (especially the younger two) so they are both hostages and also safe from Robert's immediate rage. There will be trials, executions, and such. Or there will be a war when House Lannister responds, but by then their allies will be few. The North, the Stormlands, the Vale (under Royce), and the Reach will answer the royal call.

Tell Renly the big secret. Brilliant. Thanks. Mind telling us first how Stannis knows this big secret? Cuz, the only way Ned discovered the truth was on happenstance. He was really investigating the death of Jon Arryn, a man that he loved like a father. And the only REAL reason Ned was fishing around was because Cat received the letter from Lysa saying Jon was murdered. None of this applies to Stannis.

From the Wiki: Upon arriving at King's Landing Eddard was shocked to learn that the crown was heavily indebted due to Robert's extravagance, and Arryn and the Small Council had been unable to restrain him. So, if Stannis had been appointed Hand, the reasonable belief, is that this would have been his primary focus. Basically doing his best to whip his fat lazy brother back into sense. And restore order. Although realy, he'd just be the Hand, not the King, so I would still taper my expectations.

2 - Once you are Hand, have Davos appointed Master of Ships. Name bronze Yohn Royce as Warden of the East (but not lord of the Eyrie) until Sweetrobin comes of age. Offer to foster Sweetrobin with Shireen on Dragonstone, but with the understanding that if she wishes to mother him at the Eyrie alone, it will not be taken as an offense. Replace the head of the Gold Cloaks with someone like Randyll Tarly or Beric Dondarrion and the King's Justice with a someone like Balon Swann. Have Melisandre spying on Varys especially, to know what he is up to. If he cannot be trusted, confine him to Dragonstone under guard and make melisandre the MoW.

I like Davos for Commander of the royal fleet, but it's for the King, not the Hand to appoint these positions. Tyrion appoints positions when he is Hand because Joff is not of age.

Mel won't be able to spy on Varys just because she's a red priestess. The fires don't show her what she want's to see, just what R'hllor shows her. Ugh and Robert is not the type to believe in magical visions anyway. He'd be more like to have Mel hanged than start letting her fill his mind with her predictions. So unless I read this OP wrong and we're talking about Stannis as King, not Hand, all of this is hot garbage. The lot of it.

[Spotted Cat]

stannis has no chance against the spider and Little finger.

neither did Ned.

Both honorable law abiding people.

Stannis would most probably burn all the brothels and Bob would just kill him. :drunk:

[Where Boars Glow]

There would be no war of five kings. The lannisters would all be dead and robert married to marg.

Which would have been a BORRRINg story :)

[Spotted Cat]

The Clegane brothers, Khal Drogo, Hodor and Wun Weg.

I can totally see Gregor playing Rugby... would look like a huge Chabal... more fury.

[Where Boars Glow]

There was only a few times bob didnt listen to ned. Most of the time robert was whoring and drinking. Not running the kingdoms, if stannis is hand he will uncover alot of bull in kl and once things are revealed to robert its game over for the schemers.

A valid point but remember Robert didn't like Stannis. So say Stannis comes forth and makes a claim that Robert was cuckold and Stannis was Roberts true heir to the throne......would Robert have believed him?

[GallowsKnight]

Tell Renly the big secret. Brilliant. Thanks. Mind telling us first how Stannis knows this big secret? Cuz, the only way Ned discovered the truth was on happenstance. He was really investigating the death of Jon Arryn, a man that he loved like a father. And the only REAL reason Ned was fishing around was because Cat received the letter from Lysa saying Jon was murdered. None of this applies to Stannis.

Stannis was the one who first brought the suspicion of illegitimate parentage to Jon Arryn. Who then died. Stannis going in knows he's in danger.