What if Stannis was the king's Hand instead of Ned?

[Tibi088]

Many think that if Stannis moved succesfully against Cersei and Jaime (execution or imprisonment) there would be a war against Tywin. But knowing Tywin im not sure about that. If he sees that he is alone against the whole/most of the realm im not sure he would move. He doesnt strike me like the guy who fights hopeless wars. I would imagine he would wait and attack when the time is right.

[AvengerofWinterfell]

Cersei and her kids would be dead, Robert never would've come to Winterfell so Ned & Robb would likely still be alive unless they died in some other war (Tywin vs the Crown perhaps), Jon Snow wouldnt be at the wall because Ned would have never needed to send him away.

[SaltSmokeAndSnow]

Stannis was the one who first brought the suspicion of illegitimate parentage to Jon Arryn. Who then died. Stannis going in knows he's in danger.

That's only suspicion still. Even Ned, once he figured it out, didn't know it for a fact until he confronted Cersei and she admitted it.

I'm all in favor of crackpot cock-a-meme theories for the future. But to go back and assume things we don't know certain characters like that. I dunno, just comes off as blasphemy to me.

[Artos Stark]

Stannis would be dead and Ned would still be alive. The Lannisters already had control of KL, there wasn't shit Stannis was gonna do to change that.

[Artos Stark]

If Stannis challenge Cersei openly, Jaime would cut him down where he stood the next time he saw him and headed for the Rock.

[mcb]

:agree: He did say that he told Robert to take Varys head.

Yes, and Bob didn't agree. So you're saying Stannis would do that against the king's clearly expressed wishes?

[Ramsay Gimp]

For this to happen, Robert and Stannis would have to be different characters. Their mutual mistrust and resentment would have prevented Stannis from ever being named Hand

[LeoSuperstar]

First thing Stannis would do as Hand is scour out the corrupt cesspit of a court in KL:

1. Varys beheaded, for treason, espionage, etc, take your pick, (basically Stannis mistrusts him).

2. Littlefinger beheaded for massive corruption. Janos Slynt dismissed from the City Watch (and possibly beheaded).

3. Stannis would then pick his own loyal men for Master of Coin, Master of Whispers, Master of Ships and Commander of the City Watch. He can't touch Pycelle, as the Grand Maester is elected by the Conclave of Archmaesters of the Maester's Order.

4. Wait for the right time, and then bring forth a large body of evidence to King Bob (all his bastards and the book of geneaology showing historical Baratheon-Lannister marriages, and also pointing out that Stannis, Renly and Shireen have the same hair and eye colour) about the incest, but not before quickly and with surprise and no forewarning (similar to what he did to Arnolf Karstark in the gift TWOW chapter) arresting Cersei, Jaime and the royal children, and holding them securely. Flooding the Red Keep with Baratheon soldiers, while disarming and capturing the Lannister soldiers would also be a priority.

5. King Bob then loses his shit, and orders both Cersei and Jaime's executions in a rage. The three royal children are unfortunately executed as well, (Stannis may come to be seen publicly as a 'evil/bloodthirsty uncle-vizier' after this, but he doesn't give a shit).

6. War is declared on House Lannister - the newly-single and bereft of trueborn-children King Bob calls his banners, and the Stormlands, Crownlands, North, Riverlands, Vale, Reach and Dorne respond. The Westerlands is smashed and utterly defeated, and Tywin is probably killed (he won't bend the knee to those who killed his precious twins). House Lannister surrenders, and some surviving senior member (maybe Kevan) is made Lord of Casterly Rock and Lord Paramount of the Westerlands. Hostages are taken and financial penalties paid, as per usual. Needless to say, the entirety of the crown's debt to the Lannisters is wiped away. (King Bob wasn't about exterminating or disinheriting families, as long as they weren't Targs, and it would be impractical anyway with the large and long-reigning Lannister brood).

7. King Bob marries Margaery, but with Stannis as Hand the Tyrells won't be accumulating the same amount of power and influence that the Lannisters previously had in the royal court. King Bob has several trueborn children with her (he's still quite virile), and their upbringing is mostly entrusted to Margaery and the master-at-arms, soldiers and maesters of the Red Keep (basically similar to Edric Storm's upbringing). King Bob drinks and whores his way to an early grave.

8. Stannis spends the remainder of King Bob's reign trying to forestall a fiscal cliff and bring the national debt under control, and countering Renly's ambitions.

Sorry, this is just wrong. You seem to be confusing "Stannis as Hand" with "Stannis as King". The Hand is, like Ned said "First among equals." It's not up to him to choose the Council and he certainly cant behead the Master of Whispers for espionage...

[SaltSmokeAndSnow]

For this to happen, Robert and Stannis would have to be different characters. Their mutual mistrust and resentment would have prevented Stannis from ever being named Hand

:agree:

That's basically my point. We're talking about manipulating established character traits for the convenience of our own off-based notions. :stillsick:

What if Theon never turned his cloak? What if Rob Stark hit-it-and-quit-it? Who cares...

:tantrum: Lol, at any rate, my apologies for the tantrum.

[Lion of Judah]

Yes, and Bob didn't agree. So you're saying Stannis would do that against the king's clearly expressed wishes?

Is there something wrong here?

[mcb]

Is there something wrong here?

Dunno. Why don't we ask Alester Florent?

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

The Starks would have been free to deal with the true problems in the North. Ned would be alive and so would all of his children.

Stannis would have been killed instead of Ned along with Robert and there would be war in the south between the Lannisters and Renly/Tyrell allegence.

[Pod The Impaler]

That's only suspicion still. Even Ned, once he figured it out, didn't know it for a fact until he confronted Cersei and she admitted it.

Which was, of course, Ned's terrible mistake. Confronting and accusing the Queen without arresting her on the spot ? Stupid move.

Granted he wanted to be merciful to her children. Yet, earlier we see Ned telling Bran that a deserter is someone so desperate they'll commit any act no matter how vile in order to escape judgment, plus he already thought she murdered Jon Arryn this was the reason why, so what did he think a murderer and traitor would do next? Scamper off and thank him for the heads up?

At the very least, the moment she admitted it, he should have arrested her. At that point, he probably could have used Ice to separate her head from her body (which is often mortal), and explained his reasoning to Robert (and the realm) afterwards. "On my honour as a Stark, on the grave of our friend and mentor Jon Arryn, and as your friend, Robert, believe me." Robert would.

They do not have DNA paternity tests, but the evidence of "there has never been a blond Baratheon, ever" plus the fact all Robert's bastards were black-haired regardless of the mother's appearance is as telling as it's ever likely to get.

This is why I think Stannis would have made sure the trap around her was secure before any arrest or public accusation or telling of Robert. Eddard was afraid of her children paying the prince for her crimes; Stannis would not be. However, Stannis would not be believed by Robert unless Stannis had others who saw the facts and backed him up first. That's why you tell Renly, that's why you tell Barristan, and maybe Ned Stark as well, first.

[James Arryn]

I could see it play out where Stannis takes the story to...Ned in the North.

He'd have to be a tad more intelligent to do that, though. He was bright enough to see that Robert wouldn't believe him, but his answer waste go and sulk in Dragonstone. I think the next intelligent step would be to take it to someone who;

A) Won't automatically disbelieve him due to dislike

B) Robert would believe

And that really means 2 people, Jon Arryn and Ned. I think Robert might also believe Renly, but Stannis would never go there. So that leaves Ned. I think a smarter Stannis heads north rather than to Dragonstone, even without being Hand.

[Pod The Impaler]

I could see it play out where Stannis takes the story to...Ned in the North.

He'd have to be a tad more intelligent to do that, though. He was bright enough to see that Robert wouldn't believe him, but his answer waste go and sulk in Dragonstone. I think the next intelligent step would be to take it to someone who;

A ) Won't automatically disbelieve him due to dislike

B ) Robert would believe

And that really means 2 people, Jon Arryn and Ned. I think Robert might also believe Renly, but Stannis would never go there. So that leaves Ned. I think a smarter Stannis heads north rather than to Dragonstone, even without being Hand.

Yup. Definitely. Or if he did not go north himself, send a secret message with a certain onion smuggler who already knew ned from back in the old days.

[Lion of Judah]

Dunno. Why don't we ask Alester Florent?

No not we. Why don't you ask him? It's neither here nor there to me.

[Ser Lepus]

First thing Stannis would do as Hand is scour out the corrupt cesspit of a court in KL:

1. Varys beheaded, for treason, espionage, etc, take your pick, (basically Stannis mistrusts him).

2. Littlefinger beheaded for massive corruption. Janos Slynt dismissed from the City Watch (and possibly beheaded).

3. Stannis would then pick his own loyal men for Master of Coin, Master of Whispers, Master of Ships and Commander of the City Watch. He can't touch Pycelle, as the Grand Maester is elected by the Conclave of Archmaesters of the Maester's Order.

The Lannsiters and their men in KL would be dead or captured.

I think he would have done quite well as Hand, thwarting Littlefiger and Varys' games, but I also think that might put him in danger. So, the only way to secure his position and safety, and Robert's for that matter, would be to remove the both of them from the Small Council, and then put them in chains.

I don't think the Hand has that kind of power: He would need Robert to support those executions, and Robert wouldn't do it.

And, if we're talking about the post Robert/Boar situation, he could have done what Ned should have done. Flood the Red Keep with his own men and paint the Red Keep with Lannister blood.

That, on the other hand, is more than possible. The Lannisters would still rise against him, and the North and Riverlands could join them because they still believed that Joffrey was Bob's son. Renly and the Tyrells would probably join the Lannisters, since Stannis would have killed Cersei's spawn, and killing Stannis would make Renly heir to the crown.

[Fat Mac]

If Stannis challenge Cersei openly, Jaime would cut him down where he stood the next time he saw him and headed for the Rock.

This would surely start a war. Its one thing that Robert doesn't like Stannis. But Robert's not just going to sit there and let his own brother be murdered by his wifes family.

In my honest opinion, Stannis could do a lot if the court wasn't already so corrupt and pro-Lannister. He still would have the possibility to get things done, but he'd need a great ally to team up with in order for security and unity. Renly would be a pretty good guy to team up with. Alone he's not worth much, but with the potential to rally the entire Reach and Stormlands, many wouldn't dare to challenge them openly.

[SaltSmokeAndSnow]

Which was, of course, Ned's terrible mistake. Confronting and accusing the Queen without arresting her on the spot ? Stupid move.

Granted he wanted to be merciful to her children. Yet, earlier we see Ned telling Bran that a deserter is someone so desperate they'll commit any act no matter how vile in order to escape judgment, plus he already thought she murdered Jon Arryn this was the reason why, so what did he think a murderer and traitor would do next? Scamper off and thank him for the heads up?

No one here is denying Ned's mistake. We all wish he had done things differently.

They do not have DNA paternity tests, but the evidence of "there has never been a blond Baratheon, ever" plus the fact all Robert's bastards were black-haired regardless of the mother's appearance is as telling as it's ever likely to get.

This is why I think Stannis would have made sure the trap around her was secure before any arrest or public accusation or telling of Robert. Eddard was afraid of her children paying the prince for her crimes; Stannis would not be. However, Stannis would not be believed by Robert unless Stannis had others who saw the facts and backed him up first. That's why you tell Renly, that's why you tell Barristan, and maybe Ned Stark as well, first.

We are all enlightened by what you think. However, the reality is, that Stannis--knowing all the things you mentioned about hair color, Baratheon family traits, and Robert's bastards--did not act. He fled. Took his ball and went home, as the expressing goes. Your theory falls to pieces when you realize that Stannis already had the opportunity to do all the "good ideas" you say he could or would have. He didn't talk to Renly, didnt talk to Barristan, sent no raven to Ned, made no attempt to arrest anyone for treason.

[Captain Victarion Greyjoy]

80% of the population of kings landing would be killed or sent to the wall.

Stannis first of all would not go to Robert to say the truth about his ''nephews'' , he is to smart to do such a mistake , he would prepare the ground , he would replace Varys , LF... with guys like Davos , Mel or who ever he finds trusty , and when he has KL under control then he whould tell Robert.