was Jaime ever really an 'evil' person (so is it really a redemption arc)

[Peter George Stewart]

So in the end, I think negating the evilness of early Jamie takes away much of his story arc. He isn't a knight in shining armor, he is a pretty bad, arrogant and detached guy who comes to realize he did stuff wrong in his life when he meets a person he truly cares for. And now we can hold our breath if he can actually be a good guy, because we haven't seen that yet

Yeah, agree totally with this. Pointless to try and minimize his early badness.

While reading Jaimie's redemptive stuff, one is warming to him, holding one's breath, willing the guy to see the light, as it were. But whether he makes it all the way remains to be seen, he could just as easily backslide.

[Castel]

Perhaps one way of looking at the Jaime situation is what pnalties would we impose on him if he committed the same acts today.

Firstely incest - probably a short prisopn sentence if anyone bothered to prosecute

Sleeping with the Queen (or Princess of Wales)- IT IS STILL HIGH TREASON. Unless I am very out of date I think that technically the punishment is STILL to be hung drawn and quartered. OK today no one would go to jail but it is a little career limiting.

Breaking an oath to Robert by sleeping with Cersai - a very low down dishonorable thing to do

Killing Aerys - OK some justification here BUT he would still get 15 years behind bars

Attempted murder of Bran - a despicable act for which there is no hope of EVER fully atoning. i find those who seek to excuse him as essentially morally corrupt themselves. it was almost the worst sort of murder - purely for personal gain and not in the heat of passion etc. He would get 20 years or execution in the US.

However - do these series of acts make jaime evil - probably not - I reserve evil for those without compassion or any form of kindness. Ramsay, Roose and Quyburn. Gregor, Sir Amory come very close

Are you arguing for Westerosi justice/morality or modern justice/morality? Your post seems a mix of the two. There are no prison sentences the way you describe in Westeros as far as we know,especially not for the crimes you mention.

[Aegon IV]

I make them constantly :)

Damn, I've missed them. I am relatively new, and only come to the forums here and there, though.

I am not saying his relationship with Cersei was an act of evil, just that it was a lot more questionable morally than a typical adultery.

I'd agree there.

Perhaps one way of looking at the Jaime situation is what pnalties would we impose on him if he committed the same acts today.

Firstely incest - probably a short prisopn sentence if anyone bothered to prosecute

Sleeping with the Queen (or Princess of Wales)- IT IS STILL HIGH TREASON. Unless I am very out of date I think that technically the punishment is STILL to be hung drawn and quartered. OK today no one would go to jail but it is a little career limiting.

Breaking an oath to Robert by sleeping with Cersai - a very low down dishonorable thing to do

Killing Aerys - OK some justification here BUT he would still get 15 years behind bars

Attempted murder of Bran - a despicable act for which there is no hope of EVER fully atoning. i find those who seek to excuse him as essentially morally corrupt themselves. it was almost the worst sort of murder - purely for personal gain and not in the heat of passion etc. He would get 20 years or execution in the US.

However - do these series of acts make jaime evil - probably not - I reserve evil for those without compassion or any form of kindness. Ramsay, Roose and Quyburn. Gregor, Sir Amory come very close

Another one I haven't seen mentioned was killing the other prisoner with him in an attempt to escape while prisoner outside Riverrun I believe.

[Ser Stripper]

Jaime is not evil. Evil is Mad Aerys, evil is Ramsay Bolton, evil is Gregor Clegane. Evil is cruelty and evil is monstrous. Jaime is none of those things. Jaime is dishonorable. But so are most the men in aSoIaF. Yes, Jaime pushed Bran out a window, and that was an evil thing to do, but he was thinking, "it's either him or me" and he chose to live than to die for an unforgivable crime. Most men, if not all except for a handful would chose the same.

Killing Aerys was not evil, it was the right thing to do no matter what anyone says and sending men on Ned was not evil it was revenge for his brother's capture. So except for fucking his own sister please tell me how Jaime is any different than anyone else "evil-wise" in the book. because The only thing Jaime is guilty of, is having the honor of a common sell sword.