was Jaime ever really an 'evil' person (so is it really a redemption arc)

[A Redeemed Hound]

Pushing a child out of a window for any reason is pretty rotten. Jaime is a d-head. I love his character but he's pretty much an a-hole. And the way he acted with Catelyn was pretty bad too. Not too many people are keen on incest with your sister either.

[mcb]

It's not "perfectly okay", but he had no other option.

:bs:

Contrary to what his defenders claim, Jaime isn't a wild, brainless beast driven by instinct. He's a human being, capable of making choices. He did have another choice: not to murder a little kid. He decided against it.

That would mean he and Cersei would have to face responsibility for their crime, but, as it has been pointed about eleventy zillion times so far, it doesn't make murdering witnesses any more justifiable.

[LeoSuperstar]

Pushing a child out of a window for any reason is pretty rotten. Jaime is a d-head. I love his character but he's pretty much an a-hole. And the way he acted with Catelyn was pretty bad too. Not too many people are keen on incest with your sister either.

He is supposed to be nice with Catelyn? Come on...

[ShowOverBooks]

I'm sorry does no one here consider fucking your sister evil?

It seems a LOT of people here admire and wish to emulate the Targaryans.

I HOPE a lot of these such posts are merely playful, but I think it implies a remarkable lack of morality.

Not surprising, really, with the popular enthusiasm for the 'shades of grey' theme in the books. I started reading the series about 10 years ago, and stopped after the first book, due to the lack of morality in virtually every character. I have to identify with SOMEONE when reading fiction, and once Ned was dead, there were only scumbags left. I onyl got back into reading the books as a treatment for withdrawal from the TV show (which is less personal and shows the main characters as having occassional flashes of decency).

[Where Boars Glow]

It seems a LOT of people here admire and wish to emulate the Targaryans.

I HOPE a lot of these such posts are merely playful, but I think it implies a remarkable lack of morality.

Not surprising, really, with the popular enthusiasm for the 'shades of grey' theme in the books. I started reading the series about 10 years ago, and stopped after the first book, due to the lack of morality in virtually every character. I have to identify with SOMEONE when reading fiction, and once Ned was dead, there were only scumbags left. I onyl got back into reading the books as a treatment for withdrawal from the TV show (which is less personal and shows the main characters as having occassional flashes of decency).

This goes back to the applying the values of middle American to a mythical place and time.

[LeoSuperstar]

:bs:

Contrary to what his defenders claim, Jaime isn't a wild, brainless beast driven by instinct. He's a human being, capable of making choices. He did have another choice: not to murder a little kid. He decided against it.

That would mean he and Cersei would have to face responsibility for their crime, but, as it has been pointed about eleventy zillion times so far, it doesn't make murdering witnesses any more justifiable.

So he is supposed to put Bran's (a virtual stranger) life above the lifes of Cersei, Joffrey, Myrcella, Tommen and his own life? Oh, and the Lannister name. How many characters can you see doing that?

[Where Boars Glow]

So he is supposed to put Bran's (a virtual stranger) life above the lifes of Cersei, Joffrey, Myrcella, Tommen and his own life? Oh, and the Lannister name. How many characters can you see doing that?

Well eddard.......then again...he is kind of dead now along with most of his family.

BUT HE HAS HONOR AND MORALS DAMN IT!

[ShowOverBooks]

So he is supposed to put Bran's (a virtual stranger) life above the lifes of Cersei, Joffrey, Myrcella, Tommen and his own life? Oh, and the Lannister name. How many characters can you see doing that?

Only the honourable (good) ones. Of course, they don't fuck the King's wife in the first place.

[Where Boars Glow]

Only the honourable (good) ones. Of course, they don't fuck the King's wife in the first place.

If you are looking for rigid moral standards you have come to the wrong series sister :P

[ShowOverBooks]

If you are looking for rigid moral standards you have come to the wrong series sister :P

Read the thread title.

[mcb]

So he is supposed to put Bran's (a virtual stranger) life above the lifes of Cersei, Joffrey, Myrcella, Tommen and his own life? Oh, and the Lannister name.

Dude, seriously. If he had given a fiddler's fuck about any of the above, he wouldn't have fucked the queen in the first place.

How many characters can you see doing that?

He committed high treason and tried to murder a little kid to protect his sorry ass and the sorry ass of his partner in crime. How many characters can you see doing that?

[Where Boars Glow]

Read the thread title.

i did......i feel remarkably similar :)

[LeoSuperstar]

Well eddard.......then again...he is kind of dead now along with most of his family.

BUT HE HAS HONOR AND MORALS DAMN IT!

Eddard really abominates the murder of children and really loves his family. Tough call...

[Pod The Impaler]

Oh yeah, she keeps screaming in his ear: HE SAW US, HE SAW US, HE SAW US. After that, she get's mad for what he did. Classical Cersei.

It's true, in a way. Jaime is notoriously reliant on solving problems only one way - Cersei of all people knew this.

She doesn't really feel bad for Bran, but back then she tended to think further ahead. She may have been right about being able to keep Bran silent by non-lethal means, but Jaime just made a snap decision to go for the most certain (most easy) method - kill the witness. Had Bran died from the fall, Jaime might easily have been right about it.

[Where Boars Glow]

Dude, seriously. If he had given a fiddler's fuck about any of the above, he wouldn't have fucked the queen in the first place.

He committed high treason and tried to murder a little kid to protect his sorry ass and the sorry ass of his partner in crime. How many characters can you see doing that?

In westeros? Bunches. The difference being they would mainly do it only to protect themselves...Jamie does it for love :)

[Where Boars Glow]

Eddard really abominates the murder of children and really loves his family. Tough call...

Well he kind of had a similar situation where he told Cersi of his plans and did nothing to protect her children at his own families perall...that is what i was reffering to.

[Lord Bramily]

i'd like to point out that Ned, one of the more honorable characters was even stunted when confronted with the question of: "If it were your kids over the life of a stranger, who would you choose?" I believe Cersei asks him that, though it was worded differently. So, even though Jaime's act of throwing Bran out the window is a reprehensible action, what would anyone do when thrust into a situation like that? Can you really know? How would you choose? It's clear Jaime doesn't think before acting, so he didn't exactly deal with it well. Sure, he didn't have to screw Cersei, but he did, and how many of you would actually be able to own up to a crime? Especially when you're in love with someone you legally and morally shouldn't be, and your families life is at risk because of that?

[LeoSuperstar]

i'd like to point out that Ned, one of the more honorable characters was even stunted when confronted with the question of: "If it were your kids over the life of a stranger, who would you choose?" I believe Cersei asks him that, though it was worded differently. So, even though Jaime's act of throwing Bran out the window is a reprehensible action, what would anyone do when thrust into a situation like that? Can you really know? How would you choose? It's clear Jaime doesn't think before acting, so he didn't exactly deal with it well. Sure, he didn't have to screw Cersei, but he did, and how many of you would actually be able to own up to a crime? Especially when you're in love with someone you legally and morally shouldn't be, and your families life is at risk because of that?

Thank you, that's exactly what me and other "Jaime apologists" are saying.

[ShowOverBooks]

i'd like to point out that Ned, one of the more honorable characters was even stunted when confronted with the question of: "If it were your kids over the life of a stranger, who would you choose?" I believe Cersei asks him that, though it was worded differently. So, even though Jaime's act of throwing Bran out the window is a reprehensible action, what would anyone do when thrust into a situation like that? Can you really know? How would you choose? It's clear Jaime doesn't think before acting, so he didn't exactly deal with it well. Sure, he didn't have to screw Cersei, but he did, and how many of you would actually be able to own up to a crime? Especially when you're in love with someone you legally and morally shouldn't be, and your families life is at risk because of that?

It seems to me you are arguing in favour of 'evil' rather than denying it. I am sure many of us would have pushed Bran out that window in Jaime's place. That only means we are capable of evil as well.

What was the RIGHT thing to do? It wasn't to murder an innocent child.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

i'd like to point out that Ned, one of the more honorable characters was even stunted when confronted with the question of: "If it were your kids over the life of a stranger, who would you choose?" I believe Cersei asks him that, though it was worded differently. So, even though Jaime's act of throwing Bran out the window is a reprehensible action, what would anyone do when thrust into a situation like that? Can you really know? How would you choose? It's clear Jaime doesn't think before acting, so he didn't exactly deal with it well. Sure, he didn't have to screw Cersei, but he did, and how many of you would actually be able to own up to a crime? Especially when you're in love with someone you legally and morally shouldn't be, and your families life is at risk because of that?

Ned took care he didn't get in a situation like that. Or, he didn't even need to take care, since he's not a man like that. What Ned would do if the unthinkable dit happen? Definitely not kill a child. See, Ned usually thinks before he acts, a characteristic Jaime lacked. I am sure Ned would trade his honor for his children, because that is the exact thing he did when he confessed treason. But see, Ned did not tell Robert of Cersei and her children since that would mean the death of the children. What Jaime would do in a situation like that? Kill the children. That is the difference. Jaime solved things by killing them or eliminating them. Ned solved things by thinking, then acting. That it resulted in his death does not really matter here.

And, own up to a crime? No, we know Jaime can't do that, but what defense is that? ''Hey, I could have chosen not to screw my sister, the Queen, but I did and since no one would own up to a crime anyway, it's perfectly okay for me to not do it as well and throw this kid out of the window!'' Right. They were at fault here and defending the murder attempt on Bran doesn't make anything right.