What characters have you changed your opinion on?

[Arkantos]

Why would you stop liking a character because of what people say?

Fair enough if they present the character in a new light that you find yourself agreeing with, but some people just seem to not like the fans of characters and thus they find themselves disliking the character too, it's silly.

[James Arryn]

Thinking ahead, there's still a good chunk of story to be told, and I'm willing to bet that Martin has a couple more 180's in store for some of the characters. For example even Dany, who is on plenty of people's s..t lists these days, is only a couple of plot twists away from gaining some sympathy back...

She's the one I most expect that of. I think the main complaint has been boredom and things which stem from same, and I think GRRM's knot issues explain most of that. Whereas Bran kinda got boring all on his own, IMO. (forgot about him in list, which in and of itself is probably most apt. At one point I assume he was the primary sympathetic POV...now his are among the chapters I least look forward to.)

[Éadaoin]

She's the one I most expect that of. I think the main complaint has been boredom and things which stem from same, and I think GRRM's knot issues explain most of that. Whereas Bran kinda got boring all on his own, IMO. (forgot about him in list, which in and of itself is probably most apt. At one point I assume he was the primary sympathetic POV...now his are among the chapters I least look forward to.)

Bran is a weird one for me. I care for him and I want him to have a happy ending, yet I dread his chapters. :dunno: It's really odd.

[Zupoleon]

That would take quite a bit, speaking for myself.

Haha yes me too. Perhaps too much of an extreme example ;)

[James Arryn]

Why would you stop liking a character because of what people say?

Fair enough if they present the character in a new light that you find yourself agreeing with, but some people just seem to not like the fans of characters and thus they find themselves disliking the character too, it's silly.

Speaking for myself, it's kind of reduction working in on itself. For example, Stannis. I liked him because of general traits like being implacable, willingness to face tough truths, etc. I didn't think those qualities made him amazing or Ideal King or w/e, but I appreciated their presence when they were there.

But seeing people argue that they are always there, and that they mean Ideal King or W/e has drawn my attention more and more to when they weren't there....and why they weren't there when they weren't...and then, made me see patterns in when they weren't there...and made me reaffirm why their even being there wouldn't mean Ideal King, or W/e.

Hope this makes sense.

[James Arryn]

Bran is a weird one for me. I care for him and I want him to have a happy ending, yet I dread his chapters. :dunno: It's really odd.

Yeah, still have soft spot re: his fate, but am less interested in the play by play.

[Arkantos]

Speaking for myself, it's kind of reduction working in on itself. For example, Stannis. I liked him because of general traits like being implacable, willingness to face tough truths, etc. I didn't think those qualities made him amazing or Ideal King or w/e, but I appreciated their presence when they were there.

But seeing people argue that they are always there, and that they mean Ideal King or W/e has drawn my attention more and more to when they weren't there....and why they weren't there when they weren't...and then, made me see patterns in when they weren't there...and made me reaffirm why their even being there wouldn't mean Ideal King, or W/e.

Hope this makes sense.

Well I suppose that's fair, the constant lighting up of certain parts of his character has made the darker aspects more noticeable to you.

But not liking a character because they have a lot of die-hard fans constantly defending them is just disgraceful, some people do it subconsciously and then validate it with logic afterwards, that's called something, alas, I forget.

You can usually tell by the half arsed explanations as to why Stannis/Dany/Ned etc are bad.

[James Arryn]

Well I suppose that's fair, the constant lighting up of certain parts of his character has made the darker aspects more noticeable to you.

But not liking a character because they have a lot of die-hard fans constantly defending them is just disgraceful, some people do it subconsciously and then validate it with logic afterwards, that's called something, alas, I forget.

You can usually tell by the half arsed explanations as to why Stannis/Dany/Ned etc are bad.

Hmm.... can't agree. Likes or dislikes are so illogical and ephemeral to begin with that I don't devalue one road to get there and value another. It's like why do I like chocolate? Agreeing with a characters actions...thinking them smart of dumb or moral or immoral...those I can see argued from a linear progression and divorced from externals. But why you or I like character x is already affected by externals...they remind us of our mother, or a tv character we like, or whatever. Our opinions weren't formed in isolation, so I don't see a continuance of contextual opinion being invalid.

[Arkantos]

Hmm.... can't agree. Likes or dislikes are so illogical and ephemeral to begin with that I don't devalue one road to get there and value another. It's like why do I like chocolate? Agreeing with a characters actions...thinking them smart of dumb or moral or immoral...those I can see argued from a linear progression and divorced from externals. But why you or I like character x is already affected by externals...they remind us of our mother, or a tv character we like, or whatever. Our opinions weren't formed in isolation, so I don't see a continuance of contextual opinion being invalid.

So do you agree with judging people by their fans and not on their own merits?

Should you hate a football team just because their supporters are a bunch of hooligans?

[James Arryn]

So do you agree with judging people by their fans and not on their own merits?

Should you hate a football team just because their supporters are a bunch of hooligans?

On the former, I can't agree or disagree. As I said, I don't necessarily see the delineation you do.

On the latter, absolutely. 100%. There are Lakers teams I might have enjoyed if it weren't for the smug, self-satisfied faces (Tying GOT in) of their fans, and their expectation of privilege and ref protection. Same goes for Yankees, Cowboys, etc.

[Brienne Of Bombay]

Started out hating Jaime..but he is one of my favorites now. Bran bored me but on rereads I find him interesting. Used to like Dany but now I'm indifferent. Tywin used to impress me but later on only disgusted me. I abhor Cersei more than ever. Disliked Stannis but not so much now. Sansa annoyed me but like her now.

[Arkantos]

On the former, I can't agree or disagree. As I said, I don't necessarily see the delineation you do.

On the latter, absolutely. 100%. There are Lakers teams I might have enjoyed if it weren't for the smug, self-satisfied faces (Tying GOT in) of their fans, and their expectation of privilege and ref protection. Same goes for Yankees, Cowboys, etc.

We seem to have two quite different outlooks on these matters then. I like to judge things logically and fairly, not saying you don't, but I almost always do. When it comes to a sports team, I usually judge it on how they play or how the players as a whole act, and with opinions in general I usually base it off how that person acts, not how their friends/fans act.

I don't see why you should treat people differently because of how someone who's not within their control acted.

[ARYa_Nym]

I don't think one should dislike someone solely on their fans although they are free to but stans make things worse imo. i.e. the anglophiles in the Sherlock fandom, as I've mentioned the Loki fandom, and as proposed the Hound/San/San fans. They intensify my dislike rather than their goal of converting me to their fave.

Then at times dislike for fans aligns with the actual person or character. i.e. Roman Polanski stans, Chris Brown stans, etc.

[Winterfellian]

Why would you stop liking a character because of what people say?

Fair enough if they present the character in a new light that you find yourself agreeing with, but some people just seem to not like the fans of characters and thus they find themselves disliking the character too, it's silly.

You say is fair game to change your opinion if someone presents a character in a new light. Than what if this "new light" is something you personally consider the extreme of fanboyism for example? Wouldn't it be fair then than a dislike may grow out of this by your own logic or is only ok to change opinions when it is to view the character in a more positive light? To me the people who tried to convince me that Sandor killing Mycah was an act of mercy, for example, are presenting me the character in a new light as I had never consider things like this myself. Yet this kind of statements rather than sway me to like the character (and I never care much for him to start with) have the potential to drive me farther away from him because are founded in a willingness to rationalize every single bad act of said character instead of appreciating him for both the good and the bad.

[James Arryn]

We seem to have two quite different outlooks on these matters then. I like to judge things logically and fairly, not saying you don't, but I almost always do. When it comes to a sports team, I usually judge it on how they play or how the players as a whole act, and with opinions in general I usually base it off how that person acts, not how their friends/fans act.

I don't see why you should treat people differently because of how someone who's not within their control acted.

But, re: logic and, say, teams. So, starting position, we're arguing moral superiority of one group of grown men who, say, bounce a ball up and down and put it through a hoop vs. another group who do the same. Once you recognize how little logic is central to the process, the sliding scale from there becomes easier to shrug off, IMO.

I should or should not like ball bouncer A vs. ball bouncer B? And there's a rubric I'm abandoning if I say how people who prefer ball bouncer B to A act affects my opinion of either?

It's not a logical meritocracy to begin with, is my point. If they were real people to me and my opinion of them affected their existence, than it would probably be unfair to 'judge' them on things beyond their control. But these are either unreal people or people whose value to me is contingent upon their skill and comportment at some abstract act...which was largely shaped by circumstances beyond their control...so why sweat it? It is what it is. I originally became a fan of the Houston Rockets as a child because Hakeem Olajuwon had an unlikely placed J in his name, and my name was James...well, more Jamie as I was a tyke.

I became and a Niners fan because of their uniforms and the fact my Dad disliked them. Stop me when you see the logic at play. l became a Jays and Leafs and later Raptors fan merely because of geography. Etc.

[sillent]

Really loved Tyrion, but slowly began to question his actions, and then looking back to the times when I liked him, I realized I was doing so wrongfully. A similar thing happened with Dany, except with greater intensity.

Loved Arya and Cat throughout..

Jaime and Samwell I really hated at first, but Jaime's POV- and Sam in book 4 turned things around for me.. I guess I was also pretty indifferent towards Jon & Bran, but they grew on me somewhere in ASOS.

And like most people I was a big hater of Sansa in book 1, but shes one of my fav's now! :)

Been pretty indifferent to Stannis throughout the books, parts of him are annoying, parts entertaining but I'm not a lover or hater either way.

[ARYa_Nym]

You say is fair game to change your opinion if someone presents a character in a new light. Than what if this "new light" is something you personally consider the extreme of fanboyism for example? Wouldn't it be fair then than a dislike may grow out of this by your own logic or is only ok to change opinions when it is to view the character in a more positive light? To me the people who tried to convince me that Sandor killing Mycah was an act of mercy or that him, for example, are presenting me the character in a new light as I had never consider things like this myself. Yet this kind of statements rather than sway me to like the character (and I never care much for him to start with) have the potential to drive me farther away from him because are founded in a willingness to rationalize every single bad act of said character instead of appreciating him for both the good and the bad.

This is essentially how I feel. I see nothing wrong with liking villains. In fact I don't really like the intense need for discussing morality and liking good characters although readers do have a right to but meh.

However, that's totally different than the woobifying. For example, someone can like Jamie but when it gets into the realm of the ridiculous threads that have been popping up or some of the justifications for what he did to Bran then that's what I don't like.

In one thread I read someone saying that San/San should really be compared to Wuthering Heights but I don't see how that makes it better because Heathcliff is one of the biggest examples of woobifying. I love the book myself but I acknowledge that the main characters are fucked up rather than reading it as a love story. I think it's totally different than romanticizing faults/problematic dynamics and/or excusing them.

[Lady Meera Reed]

I used to dislike Catelyn, but after my re-read she became my favorite female character .. When I grow up I want to be like Catelyn Tully. :)

I used to be indifferent towards Jon, but ADWD made me really like the character.

I used to root for Daenerys but now she's one of the characters that I find so irritating, I can't stand her.

Tyrion used to be on my top 3, but when I read ADWD I started hating him. And like the other posters, during my re-reads I find that his flaws have always been there & I can't believe I used to root for this guy, shame. :stillsick:

I've always appreciated Stannis, but the more I read about him (esp. the TWOW gift chapter) the more I root for him & he is now my god I am now his Fangirl For Life^TM.

[Arkantos]

But, re: logic and, say, teams. So, starting position, we're arguing moral superiority of one group of grown men who, say, bounce a ball up and down and put it through a hoop vs. another group who do the same.

Not moral superiority, just arguing about whether you like/agree with a team's style or the actions of their players.

Once you recognize how little logic is central to the process, the sliding scale from there

becomes easier to shrug off, IMO.

I should or should not like ball bouncer A vs. ball bouncer B? And there's a rubric I'm abandoning if I say how people who prefer ball bouncer B to A act?

It's not a logical meritocracy to begin with, is my point.

There is a certain logic to it though. You judge them based on your beliefs yes, but that's fair, you're not judging them on the actions of others.

It's inductive reasoning imo. Whether or not it becomes easy to shrug off the logical side of things, I don't think it should be.

As soon as you start judging people based on the actions of others who they don't control, you lose the logical side of it.

You could logically state that someone is a homophobe because of how they treat homosexuals, but as soon as you start judging them on how their friends treat homosexuals, you lose the logical side of it.

You say is fair game to change your opinion if someone presents a character in a new light. Than what if this "new light" is something you personally consider the extreme of fanboyism for example? Wouldn't it be fair then than a dislike may grow out of this by your own logic or is only ok to change opinions when it is to view the character in a more positive light? To me the people who tried to convince me that Sandor killing Mycah was an act of mercy or that him, for example, are presenting me the character in a new light as I had never consider things like this myself. Yet this kind of statements rather than sway me to like the character (and I never care much for him to start with) have the potential to drive me farther away from him because are founded in a willingness to rationalize every single bad act of said character instead of appreciating him for both the good and the bad.

I'm saying it's fine to judge characters when someone puts forward a case that you agree with, doesn't have to be positive or negative.

I just don't see how you can think yourself a nice guy when you judge people on the actions of others, whom they've had no control over.

[James Arryn]

As soon as you start judging people based on the actions of others who they don't control, you lose the logical side of it.

Things like natural talent at basketball? Height?

Patrick Willis could be exactly the same guy he is, make exactly the same life choices, have exactly the same intestinal fortitude, but if he didn't run 4.4 40 at 255 lbs, I would neither know nor care, And that would not be me being illogical or unfair, IMO.