Jump to content

Last of the Unsullied?


DavosBolton

Recommended Posts

Totally obedient soldiers who are unafraid of death, feel no pain, whose morale will never ever break, nor will their personal ambition or conscience ever compel them to mutiny or turn traitor ? They exist only to follow orders, to fight and die and gain nothing by doing so.

The fact is, this is an inhuman standard to live up to. How do you create such soldiers? Well, by scouring everything from them that marks them as men using an inhuman process - physically in the sense of being eunuchs but also mentally and socially.

One of the saddest things is actually that they have minds to think and some feelings still remain to them. When Missandei's brother dies, it is explained that he went to a whore, because even though he could not function as a man, he still needed that small bit of affection.

Dany has given them a release from bondage, but cannot release them from being what they are. They are Unsullied, and can be nothing except that until death finally releases them. (And why I suspect the deity they worship but do not discuss with outsiders is the many Faced God.)

I suspect they are the last of their kind. The craft of making them was perfected and practiced in one place only, and for good reason. The masters who knew the inhuman art of making them are dead, the weapon turned against the system that made it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is it in the text that Westorosi armies murder and pillage after battle (beside Gregor's unit and Ironborn)? I remember that being the MO of the Dothraki but I can't recall it being mentioned as an issue for standing armies. Is the discipline issue a slaver's comparison to Essos forces, sellswords or soldiers in general?

Unsullied are also very expensive in peace time. Since they must be purchased in bulk, you will have an abundance of well trained people and a lot of mouths to feed. Standard Westorosi armies draw from the peasantry who can go back to food production or crafts in peace time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Creating a eunuch, and a training one are two seperate things, and can have two seperate survival rates. The 1/3 quote is all about the brutality of the Unsullied training, the survival rate of castration doesn't matter to that. And yes, this is a fantasy world. But it is one where wounds get infected and people die all the time, and there's no sign Astapor is any different. Even the Unsullied potion is said to take a long time to deaden their pain.

Except that those boys were castrated specifically to be trained. They receive a puppy the same day they were castrated, implying that their training begins on that very day. So when the book says 1 boy out of 3 survives, that also includes any that may die from castration complications. GRRM also said that the medicine in his world is superior to the medicine in our world for that time period.

I already said, the majority of violence against civilians is intentional and ordered. The Unsullied would be more effective at inflicting it. That's worse than any decrease in unintended violence (my example of Oldtown alone would do that).

I don't agree with this at all. Only in a perfect world can a commander have absolute control over normal human beings. Like Jaime said, even a soldier that is a good person at home will rape and do cruel things if his blood is roused after a battle.

Nobody told the mob to rape and kill civilians in King's Landing. The people acted on their own. If a mob can do that, how do you expect armed sellswords that just bled after a tough battle to act?

Lord Tywin did not tell his men to rape and main civilians. Yet they did it anyway. Same thing happened at King's Landing with Gregor killing people that he wasn't ordered to kill, raping people he was not supposed to rape.

And here's a conversation between Brienne and Jaime after they found women hanged for sleeping with Lannister.

" The crows had scarcely started on their corpses. The thin ropes cut deeply into the soft flesh of

their throats, and when the wind blew they twisted and swayed.

“This was not chivalrously done,” said Brienne when they were close enough to see it clearly. “No true knight would condone such wanton butchery.”

“True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench,” said Jaime. “And do worse, yes.”

Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. “I’ll leave no innocents to be food for crows.”

"

So even Knights do wanton butchery according to Jaime.

There are also rotting corpses everywhere, the area of Mooton for example was deserted and filled with corpses. Not to mention the town of Saltpans was burned and slaughtered.

No, there's no reason to believe Dany invading would cause 30 thousand to die just from soldier's rampaging around. Do you think Robert's Rebellion did? Even in the current war, most deaths are from people who were deliberately killed.

I believe this is a rosy picture. I think way more than 30 000 would die from wanton butchery in the War of 5 kings and any subsequent war, considering that the population of Westeros is 40 million, and all the things Jaime said and seen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't agree with this at all. Only in a perfect world can a commander have absolute control over normal human beings. Like Jaime said, even a soldier that is a good person at home will rape and do cruel things if his blood is roused after a battle.

...

So even Knights do wanton butchery according to Jaime.

There are also rotting corpses everywhere, the area of Mooton for example was deserted and filled with corpses. Not to mention the town of Saltpans was burned and slaughtered.

I think there is a difference between in behavior while marauding (burning fields, pillaging villages and killing the peasants of a lord you are trying to starve) designed to cause terror and an army's behavior while standing. While camped, Westorosi armies have women that follow them around and brothels they can visit while in towns.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unsullied are shut down. Good riddance.

As for their military prowess... They are famous for being absolutely obedient and fearless. For many that is the measure of military prowess - and it works against unorganised opponents (slave armies of Yunkai, Dothraki who for all their hype are just a light cavalry without organisation - much closer to Native American tribes or to Indian light cavalry of the British conquest era than to Mongols).

However... They are a one trick pony phalanx. And being too disciplined, too without identity, too obedient may actually be a bad thing in the flow of battle against good opponent. Especially combined arms opponent (like Golden Company or even normal Westerosi armies). Iron Legion of the New Ghis, generally a citizen army on Roman/Hellenic model, will be much more adaptable and easier to replenish (not to mention they can come up with new tactics or even run away to fight another day ;))

I think many people are just too infatuated with "supersoldiers" throughout the history, their "mystic" appeals to our craving for sensations, however whether it is knight, cavalryman, samurai, Templar, SS-mann... Their fame often vastly overshadowed their real value (just take the SS, as probably best documented - despite all the fame and propaganda surrounding them, SS units often did less than regular army, while taking higher casaulties - BECAUSE of their "badass" training and discipline).

While Unsullied might make an initial ipact in westeros (probably by beating some dumbass cavalry charge), they will end up quickly if faced with combined arms (good infantry, good missile troops, excellent heavy cavalry).

As for soldiers... Depends. During Napoleonics, French army was pretty well known in Spain for committing a lot of atrocities on a rgular base. British army was kept tightly on the leash by Wellington who didn't want to turn Spain against him. Yes, there were sacks of some fortified cities (perfectly OK by informal rules of war - if fort didn't surrender and forced the attacker to make an assault, blood called out for blood), where it was impossible to control assault troops after they were through the hell of escalades and breaches, but overall it worked.

(as for "sellswords cannot be trusted", depends. Professional sellswords would know the value of discipline, in real live such units were usually what was used to return discipline to levies and even noblemen out of control)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lord Tywin did not tell his men to rape and main civilians. Yet they did it anyway. Same thing happened at King's Landing with Gregor killing people that he wasn't ordered to kill, raping people he was not supposed to rape.

Actually, if i recall well, he ordered Gregor Clegane (who is such a nice guy) to burn everything from the red fork t the god´s eye

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Except that those boys were castrated specifically to be trained. They receive a puppy the same day they were castrated, implying that their training begins on that very day. So when the book says 1 boy out of 3 survives, that also includes any that may die from castration complications. GRRM also said that the medicine in his world is superior to the medicine in our world for that time period.

The 1/3 rate is supposed to be about the rigors of the their training, not that dangers of castration. The medicine may be better than medieval age, but not by much. Cuts frequently lead to infection and death, and the Unsullied practice the most extreme and dangerous form of castration.

I don't agree with this at all. Only in a perfect world can a commander have absolute control over normal human beings. Like Jaime said, even a soldier that is a good person at home will rape and do cruel things if his blood is roused after a battle.

Nobody told the mob to rape and kill civilians in King's Landing. The people acted on their own. If a mob can do that, how do you expect armed sellswords that just bled after a tough battle to act?

I don't fucking remember saying anything about perfect control. But please keep ignoring my point that most of the violence is ordered, and Unsullied would be more effective at inflicting it.

Lord Tywin did not tell his men to rape and main civilians. Yet they did it anyway. [

“Unleash Ser Gregor and send him before us with his reavers. Send forth Vargo Hoat and his freeriders as well, and Ser Amory Lorch. Each is to have three hundred horse. Tell them I want to see the riverlands afire from the Gods Eye to the Red Fork.”

“They will burn, my lord,” Ser Kevan said, rising. “I shall give the commands.” He bowed and made for the door.

When they were alone, Lord Tywin glanced at Tyrion. “Your savages might relish a bit of rapine. Tell them they may ride with Vargo Hoat and plunder as they like-goods, stock, women, they may take what they want and burn the rest.”

Same thing happened at King's Landing with Gregor killing people that he wasn't ordered to kill, raping people he was not supposed to rape.

Tywin's claims of ignorance about Eli Martell are most likely bullshit. In any case, Gregor was a bannerman and commander under Tywin, so the real question is would Gregor with a few hundred Unsullied be more or less of a danger?

And here's a conversation between Brienne and Jaime after they found women hanged for sleeping with Lannister.

So even Knights do wanton butchery according to Jaime.

There are also rotting corpses everywhere, the area of Mooton for example was deserted and filled with corpses. Not to mention the town of Saltpans was burned and slaughtered.

And if it were Unsullied ordered to hang any women who is said to have slept with Lannister men, what then? Same if they were told to take all the crops they could and burn out the rest. Saltspan was done by sellswords running around on their own, I'll give that to you. But sellswords are rare in Westeros.

I believe this is a rosy picture. I think way more than 30 000 would die from wanton butchery in the War of 5 kings and any subsequent war, considering that the population of Westeros is 40 million, and all the things Jaime said and seen.

Plenty of those 40 million haven't seen any fighting around them. The war barely effected several regions of Westeros (Dorne, the Vale, the Reach, the Iron Islands, the Stormlands, even the Westerlands only saw one raid by Robb Stark). The hardest hit region has been the Riverlands, and as seen in the quote above it has been ravaged intentionally.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Unsullied just make me sad, both the process involved in their training and the resulting damaged boys. That part about the one unsullied soldier visiting brothels just to have someone cuddle him.....so many feels. And I agree that their actual military value in Westeros might be over estimated. These are soldiers that are incapable of thinking for themselves.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the OP over estimates the strength of the Unsullied. Sure they are a good army to have, but they are not invincible. If 10,000 unsullied came accross 10,000 Knights they will not find an easy victory. Even if they win they are likely to be depleted. Every battle you will lose some, so you will contantly have to make more, which nullifys your argument before even getting into how many boys die from the castration/training.

No Dragons on the other hand, thats like having an F-16 fighter jet in the medeval era. Thats where the advantage is. Dragons don't rape or pillage either. Sure there are casualties when burning a city to the ground, but as long as you don't roast those fleeing, it has to be better than soldiers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the OP over estimates the strength of the Unsullied. Sure they are a good army to have, but they are not invincible. If 10,000 unsullied came accross 10,000 Knights they will not find an easy victory. Even if they win they are likely to be depleted. Every battle you will lose some, so you will contantly have to make more, which nullifys your argument before even getting into how many boys die from the castration/training.

No Dragons on the other hand, thats like having an F-16 fighter jet in the medeval era. Thats where the advantage is. Dragons don't rape or pillage either. Sure there are casualties when burning a city to the ground, but as long as you don't roast those fleeing, it has to be better than soldiers.

have to agree with you about the unsullied, but right now the dragons are more like ww1 biplanes to me. Quite effective for attacking but can also backfire since the Dragons aren´t trained properly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10000 Unsullied vs. 10000 knights would depend on who does more dumb things.

Now Unsullied vs. Golden company (despite all the hype it is probably still very competent unit, and combined arms at that, with infantry core and armored fist of heavy cavalry) would be absolutely no contest. Missile troops and infantry of GC would soften up the Unsullied until they are ready to be broken by cavalry. With no missile troops and no cavalry of their own, they can just hold their ground and die.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

have to agree with you about the unsullied, but right now the dragons are more like ww1 biplanes to me. Quite effective for attacking but can also backfire since the Dragons aren´t trained properly.

Perhaps, which is why Dany shouldn't have wasted all that time on stupid Daario and Mereen and worked on TRAINING HER DRAGONS!!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps, which is why Dany shouldn't have wasted all that time on stupid Daario and Mereen and worked on TRAINING HER DRAGONS!!!!

exactly! But well, if all the theories about Euron are at least a bit true she can pretty much forget the Dragon Training and pray to whatever god she prays to that her Unsullied and freedmen will get her ass on the Iron throne.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For all the talk about how good the unsullied are the truth is they can only ever be as good as their commanding officers. That's the fundamental flaw of totally obedient soldiers. It doesn't matter how good they are on an individual basis. And every battle we've seen the enemy hasn't exactly been the best anyway. Dothraki charging in like fools or armies made up of bed slaves. Let's see what happens when they com up against an army with a proper mix instead of just light horse or untrained spear men.

Give me a little bit of time and I could probably come up with a better training method than the unsullied. Start no castration, might make them easier to control but it will also limit their strength somewhat. Let them keep their individuality sometimes in a battle improvisation is needed drones can't do that. This also give me the option of taking the best and putting them through a sort of officer school, and since they'll be training alongside the regulars some trust will form. This will give me pretty much all the benefits of total obedience but few of the disadvantages. And since we haven't kill 2/3 of our recruits why not train some of the others in different roles? Support, medics, archers, etc. Even though I'm certain I could create soldier of the same individual quality as the unsullied, even if it would take more time, having 3 times (or more if we're taking into account castration deaths) the men with a more diverse mix would allow me to beat the unsullied every time.

It's not like the above would be that difficult to achieve, these cities are already able to support these men, beyond that it's just a matter of imagination.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For all the talk about how good the unsullied are the truth is they can only ever be as good as their commanding officers. That's the fundamental flaw of totally obedient soldiers. It doesn't matter how good they are on an individual basis. And every battle we've seen the enemy hasn't exactly been the best anyway. Dothraki charging in like fools or armies made up of bed slaves. Let's see what happens when they com up against an army with a proper mix instead of just light horse or untrained spear men.

Give me a little bit of time and I could probably come up with a better training method than the unsullied. Start no castration, might make them easier to control but it will also limit their strength somewhat. Let them keep their individuality sometimes in a battle improvisation is needed drones can't do that. This also give me the option of taking the best and putting them through a sort of officer school, and since they'll be training alongside the regulars some trust will form. This will give me pretty much all the benefits of total obedience but few of the disadvantages. And since we haven't kill 2/3 of our recruits why not train some of the others in different roles? Support, medics, archers, etc. Even though I'm certain I could create soldier of the same individual quality as the unsullied, even if it would take more time, having 3 times (or more if we're taking into account castration deaths) the men with a more diverse mix would allow me to beat the unsullied every time.

It's not like the above would be that difficult to achieve, these cities are already able to support these men, beyond that it's just a matter of imagination.

Hmm Sounds like your talking about Storm Troopers. lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Although there won't be a direct continuation of this line of Unsullied, I do seem to recall some mention, perhaps in ADwD, of the freed Unsullied beginning to train more recruits. It would be entirely possible for Dany to mutate the Unsullied training process into some more humane that still produce first class soldiers. Afterall, even with the most brutal aspects of their training taken out, the Unsullied are still extremely well drilled, which puts them a good deal higher than most other armies in either Essos or Westeros.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I might be in the minority, but the Unsullied are awesome. They should train more for sure.(they don't make Unsullied, they train them). They don't rape like Tywins force after the Sack, and they will die for their commander. They are the ultimate Delta Force. Maybe the armies around Earth could learn something from the slavers. I know it's harsh, but the Unsullied would be better at leaving the common folk to their business while they fearlessly take down knights unlike common sell swords who are all looking for gold or snatch. I know this will be frowned upon, but I want more Unsullied. Maybe Rickon can use some to win back Winterfell?

As far as castration, maybe they still have wet dreams, which can be fun.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the other factor for Unsullied is that they don't break. So you can use them to shore up other regular foot soldiers. It adds confidence and discipline to know these guys are down the line from you. Like having The Mountain who rides in the center of your vanguard. Sometimes in a battle mental warfare is just as important as physical troops. For the dragons add X 10,000 for this factor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...