Crackpot Theory: A+L=J and What It Could Mean

[Ser Bug]

Since at this point of the game, I think the R+L=J mathematical formula seems to obvious and cliched. Since GRRM is pretty good at surprises, I'm hoping he set up all the clues for us to come to the wrong solution. And hopefully... this is the real formula.

Aerys plus raping Lyanna equals Jon Snow.

We already know that he got pretty rapey with Rhaella and maybe even with Joanna (I'll get to that in a few run-on sentences later), so what if he raped Lyanna at some point in the confusing history of Westeros and fathered Jon Snow instead of Rhaegar?

1. Rhaegar being labeled a "rapist". In this case, he would really just be a fall guy for his father, making him (in the viewer eyes) that much more of the honorable and pretty damn awesome dude that everyone (minus Robert) has made him out to be. Also, I would hope someone wouldn't be as bold to claim such an affection for another man's woman in front of the one they're actually married to. If so, that's some weird pimp shit.
   
2. This would explain why there would be KINGSguard at the Tower of Joy if there was no one of KINGS blood there. Surely, three knights wouldn't hang around Rhaegar's bastard baby mother as she gave birth. But if it was Aerys' child... hmmm... maybe?
   
3. This would make Dany the "rightful" heir of the Iron Throne (by Targaryen's logic, because we all know STANNIS IS THE RIGHTFUL KING OF WESTEROS BY ALL LAWS) instead of Jon. A lot of people complain that if R+L=J is true, then that would make Dany's arc pointless (and I agree kinda). But if Jon is Dany's lil bro, then she still has a point to her arc... she's just taking a very long time about it...
   
4. If Aerys is Jon's dad, then I'm gonna say that he would also be Tyrion's dad (by his raping of Joanna). And if that's the case, that would explain why the two got along so well. It's not bastards that Tyrion has a soft spot for... it's instinctively a soft spot for his lil bro. Awwww. BUT I just realized that if this point is true, this would void out the previous point. So ugh... Tyrion dies right after my 5th point... which is...
   
5. Dany, Jon, and Tyrion being the three dragon riders (making all the Jon and/or Tyrion fanboys and girls rejoice). I know the whole basis of my post is to come up with an alternative to a popular theory, but I could really care less about who rides the dragons theory (unless Stannis can be one, then yes... STANNIS WILL RIDE A DRAGON). But I think of all theories to come predictable, that would be the most acceptable since those three characters have the most POVs (not including Arya since she's not apart of the "main" storyline).
   
6. And at this point... if everything I theorize is true, Dany and Tyrion dies, leaving Jon next in line for the throne. Since he REALLY takes his Walls vows seriously, he let's one of his BFFs take the throne. That BFF... STANNIS.
   
7. When King Stannis officially rule Westeros for eternity, he will still keep "make it Ser Jaime Lannister the Kingslayer henceforth" as Lord Commander because he will see the value in Jaime despite his "dishonor". He may chop off toes though...
   

So yea... that's my theory. Whatever happens, Stannis ends up the throne with Jon's unneeded help. Anyway, first post, sorry for in coherency now cut away at it.

PS: Just also wanna say that when Jon Snow finds out about his Targy side, that's when he has to fight Ser Robert, who is the Mountain's body with Ned's head on it (no wonder GRRM is making a big deal about Ned's bones). He slays Ser Robert and strangles Cersei, becoming the Valonquar (technically... he is the little brother of who Cersei wanted to really bone throughout her life). He and Arya reunite after she does whatever badass mission she has to do in her story line and everyone lives happily ever after. Also Tommen and Myrcella are there because dammit, we should be given at least one prophecy to turn out wrong.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Since at this point of the game, I think the R+L=J mathematical formula seems to obvious and cliched.

It's obvious and cliched because it's been hashed out over years and clues have been aggregated and discussed ad nauseum for eons. It is not as obvious as so many people keep bleating on about, I promise. Without the Internet, I doubt that many people would've even noticed it.

But to go down your list.

1 I think Lyanna went off with Rhaegar willingly. No rape.

2. Jon would have been the king at that point even if Rhaegar was his father and not Aerys. The succession would have been Aerys, then Rhaegar, then Aegon, then Jon (I'm assuming Rhaegar and Lyanna were married), then Viserys. At the time Ned arrived, Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were all dead. Jon would have been the king, hence the Kingsguard. The argument that the Kingsguard would've been there for a son of Aerys but not Rhaegar doesn't hash.

3. I don't give a fig for Dany's claim, nor do I oppose Jon's parentage just for its sake. So this argument is pretty irrelevant to me.

4. Tyrion is Tywin's son. I do not and have never believed that he's Aerys' bastard.

5. I don't think that "three heads" means "three riders." I think it's possible that we'll see more than three riders, just as I think it's possible that the three heads refers to one person, not three. So consider this a difference in interpretation.

6. How can Jon be the king or in line to the throne in this theory if he really is just a bastard, even Aerys'?

7. Uh. OK.

I'm not even going to touch the PS. Some major-league crackpottery going on there.

[J. Stargaryen]

There are probably a few points to be made here, but A+L=J would place Jon behind Viserys in the line of succession. This is surely an issue for your second point, as well as the entire ToJ scenario.

[danm_999]

Some issues to consider with your points;

1. People don't know, by and large, Lyanna had a son. So there's really no reason for this cover up.
   
2. Kingsblood does not mean literally blood of the King, it means people of the royal line. So whether Jon was fathered by Aerys or Rhaegar, he'd still have Kingsblood. I'm not sure how well acquainted you are with the ins and outs of R+L=J as a theory, but most proponents believe that the Kingsguard were at the Tower of Joy because Rhaegar had married Lyanna polygamously, and the three Kingsguard present knew, hence they were guarding the King, Jon Snow.
   
3. If Jon was Dany's little brother, he'd still be ahead of her in the line of succession. The Iron Throne is agnatic primogeniture, which means all sons inherit before any daughters (like how Rickon will inherit before Sansa or Arya).
   
4. I'm not sure if being sired by Aerys means you like all your siblings and half siblings. Daenerys and Viserys unquestionably had the same mother and father, and their relationship was terrible. Jon and Tyrion get along because they can relate to each other as outsiders in their respective families.
   
5. Why isn't Arya part of the main storyline? What is the main storyline?
   
6. Not really theory, just speculation I guess.
   
7. See 6.
   

[J. Stargaryen]

<snip>

I'm not even going to touch the PS. Some major-league crackpottery going on there.

It was his first post. The man had a lot to get off his chest. :)

[dragontamer]

First of all as I see it, in a time of war and turmoil there is no rightful heir, there are claimants. The rightful heir is for times of peace. Since more than one person claim the throne and have supporters to their cause only war’s end will determine the rightful heir and he/she will be the victor.

Second, if Jon is Aerys’ son then he is certainly a bastard and has no right, no claim and no authority to “gift” the throne.

Dany’s arc isn’t pointless. She is present since the first book, one of the most prominent POV characters and (believed) the last of a great and powerful house, plus has a great asset, her dragons (if she proves able to control and use them properly). Even if many find her storyline boring I doubt they find it pointless.

Lastly, when do you propose that Aerys raped Lyanna? I assume you believe that Lyanna was in KL (?). The timeline doesn’t match and how do you explain the way Lyanna was found at the ToJ later on?

[The Mountain That Posts]

Without the Internet, I doubt that many people would've even noticed it..

Actually, I really beg to differ with this. I figured it out back when my highschool book club had read A Game of Thrones and everyone else in our class figured it out as well.

With one book, and one book only, myself and three others in my bookclub all figured out on our own that Robert was most likely the instigator and the hostile force at work, that Lyanna and R were most likely lovers and that giving birth explains Lyanna's death in a bed of blood, explains her promise and fits Ned Stark's statement of "you may not have my name, but you have my blood" quote. And another AGoT hint was when Ned's thinking of Robert's bastards, then thinks of Jon Snow(a logical transition), but then proceeds to think about the tower of joy - this literary thought transition only makes sense if you connect the points.

Honestly, I think Jon Snow's parentage is perhaps one of the easiest and most boring "mysteries" of the books. So much so that I sincerely hope we never actually learn who his parents are, just to piss everyone off.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

My personal favorite alernate parenting crackpot theories for Jon are Howland Reed + Lyanna and Stannis + Lyanna. Just putting those out there while we're at it.

[J. Stargaryen]

Actually, I really beg to differ with this. I figured it out back when my highschool book club had read A Game of Thrones and everyone else in our class figured it out as well.

With one book, and one book only, myself and three others in my bookclub all figured out on our own that Robert was most likely the instigator and the hostile force at work, that Lyanna and R were most likely lovers and that giving birth explains Lyanna's death in a bed of blood, explains her promise and fits Ned Stark's statement of "you may not have my name, but you have my blood" quote. And another AGoT hint was when Ned's thinking of Robert's bastards, then thinks of Jon Snow(a logical transition), but then proceeds to think about the tower of joy - this literary thought transition only makes sense if you connect the points.

Honestly, I think Jon Snow's parentage is perhaps one of the easiest and most boring "mysteries" of the books. So much so that I sincerely hope we never actually learn who his parents are, just to piss everyone off.

I'm impressed that you saw through the mystery of Jon's parentage so easily. I'm surprised that you were unable to use that same cleverness to understand how your experience reading the book differs from most; i.e., group, assignment vs. leisure.

[The Mountain That Posts]

I'm impressed that you saw through the mystery of Jon's parentage so easily. I'm surprised that you were unable to use that same cleverness to understand how your experience reading the book differs from most; i.e., group, assignment vs. leisure.

I mean, there are definitely lots of things in the books I didn't catch on the first time reading them and/or without reading posts online. For instance, I never even considered Frey Pies until I came online - cannibalism isn't something I think about. haha

I just don't think R + L = J is AS complex/deep of a mystery as people seem to make it out to be.

[King Jonboy]

Actually, I really beg to differ with this. I figured it out back when my highschool book club had read A Game of Thrones and everyone else in our class figured it out as well.

With one book, and one book only, myself and three others in my bookclub all figured out on our own that Robert was most likely the instigator and the hostile force at work, that Lyanna and R were most likely lovers and that giving birth explains Lyanna's death in a bed of blood, explains her promise and fits Ned Stark's statement of "you may not have my name, but you have my blood" quote. And another AGoT hint was when Ned's thinking of Robert's bastards, then thinks of Jon Snow(a logical transition), but then proceeds to think about the tower of joy - this literary thought transition only makes sense if you connect the points.

Honestly, I think Jon Snow's parentage is perhaps one of the easiest and most boring "mysteries" of the books. So much so that I sincerely hope we never actually learn who his parents are, just to piss everyone off.

Snore

[naik2902]

it is said aegon was born on the day of red comet appeared.

there it was a storm on the night of daenarys birth. makes her special.

what might had happened when jon was born ?? i guess rhaegar died on the same day when jon was born.

then what about tyrion ?

[DreamSongs]

Welcome to the Forum Ser Bug!

The only opportunity for Aerys to interact with Lyanna was at Harrenhal in the Year of the False Spring.

Aerys was too busy fucking Tywin over. Lyanna was busy with her own highjinks.

[Dragonmag170]

This is actually a theory I have been toying around with for a while. I'm sort of in the middle of R+L=J and A+L=J because of a few things.

Aerys once, while drunk, joked with Tywin that he wished the first night tradition still existed because he wanted to get with Tywin's wife. This supports the idea that Aerys had a thing for Johanna (evidence that perhaps Tyrion is the son of Aerys) but also that he liked the idea of the first night tradition; the king getting to spend the first night with a new bride.

Now things get kinda complicated. I think that Lyanna definitely ran away willingly with Rhaegar. That much isn't a question in my mind. I dont think that Rhaegar would have done anything sexual with her while he had two guards around in camps, so they waited until they were able to be wed. They married (I think that, due to the Targaryan history of polygamy, this is quite plausible) in King's Landing, and Aerys decided to use the first night right and bedded Lyanna first, convieving Jon.

This is the ONLY way this theory works. Otherwise they were never once in the same place and Aerys could not have possibly raped/slept with Lyanna It simply isnt physically possible unless Rhaegar brought her to King's Landing.

The reason I keep bouncing this theory in my head is this: Dany seems, to me, to be a clear parallel to her old grandfather (not sure which), Aegon the Conqueror. He had three dragons, and he rode Balerion the Black (a black dragon, much like Drogon). The other two dragons were ridden by his two SISTERS.

Now, the tables have turned. Again, house Targaryan is outcast and any targaryans left are the last of a dying line. They again have only three dragons. If Danyeris is a parallel of Aegon, then she will ride to westeros with her two BROTHERS riding the other dragons. Not her cousins, not her nephews, not her uncles, but her BROTHERS. That is critical to this. Time in this series seems very cyclical, and everything has to happen again, but not always in the way that is expected. Aegon came once, and now another must come to unite Westeros, but that unification is needed in order to save the people that live there.

Anyways, now I'm off track. That is the only way that Aegon could be the father of Jon, in my opinion.

[ghostmaniandevil]

You are right about the parallel, but what I think is more important is that Aegon fkew with his two BRIDES. The fact that they are his sisters is somewhat irrelevant. If Dany takes two husbands, which I think is possible, and being set up, then she will be Aegon the Conqueror reborn.