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R+L=J v 37

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I don't know if this has been posted yet, but here is the app entry for the ToJ:

The Tower of Joy, which is located at the northern end of the Prince's Pass through the red mountains of Dorne, is said to have gotten its name from Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. At the end of Robert's Rebellion, Lord Eddard Stark has the tower pulled down and uses its stones to raise cairns for his five companions and the three knights of the Kingsguard who perish fighting them.

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I don't know if this has been posted yet, but here is the app entry for the ToJ:

Earth shattering.

Really that all it says?

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Earth shattering.

Really that all it says?

Yeah. The few details it contains are ones we already knew. I just figured some people without the app might want to see it for themselves. And I suppose it serves as a sort of FYI for newbies.

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those who believe in this theory believe it and those who dont will never be convinced.. so instead of more debating lets put the topic to vote and end it for once :fencing:

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Actually manny of the R+L=J believers think that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married.

Rhaegar was married to Elia, but he wouldn´t have been the first Targaryen who practised polygamy.

It is indicated by the presense of the Kingsguard at the TOJ who most likely wouldn´t protect the deads crownprinces lover and his bastard while Viserys is on Dragonstone, but they would protect the king. and if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married Jon would have been king then.

I tend to think the Kingsguard would do whatever they were told, but that's just my opinion. You could very well be right about that. However, that detail is not something Benjen is likely to know. Even if it was, of course, my point regarding there being no reason to believe Jon's lineage would ever matter still stands. At the time of Benjen's comment, Robert was king with two sons of his own. Jon didn't stand to lose anything on that front by taking the black.

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Yeah. The few details it contains are ones we already knew. I just figured some people without the app might want to see it for themselves. And I suppose it serves as a sort of FYI for newbies.

This reply of mine is sort of off-topic but thanks for sharing the contents the app. I'm one of those who don't have it so I really appreciate knowing about its details :)

I tend to think the Kingsguard would do whatever they were told, but that's just my opinion. You could very well be right about that. However, that detail is not something Benjen is likely to know. Even if it was, of course, my point regarding there being no reason to believe Jon's lineage would ever matter still stands. At the time of Benjen's comment, Robert was king with two sons of his own. Jon didn't stand to lose anything on that front by taking the black.

Back now.

As for the marriage I'd have never imagined that it had happened (or might have) until someone enlightened me about their presence at the Tower.

I always thought they were there to protect Lyanna because Rhaegar asked them to do that (I thought just like you) but then it would make no sense to have the KG there and not with Viserys and his mom.

He didn't. And one thing that I just can't get is why Jon could end up as king (I get the part of his parentage). If someone manages to prove Cersei & Jaime's incest there will still be Stannis. So why would Aegon or even Jon be king then?

Sorry if this is a silly question but I never understood how would they take it from Stannis.

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He didn't. And one thing that I just can't get is why Jon could end up as king (I get the part of his parentage). If someone manages to prove Cersei & Jaime's incest there will still be Stannis. So why would Aegon or even Jon be king then?

Sorry if this is a silly question but I never understood how would they take it from Stannis.

Robert was seated on the throne because there were no Targaryen heirs other than him. Robert's grandmother was a Targaryen, placing him in the line of succession. No one cared to have Viserys, who was in exile, as king. All of the lords supported Robert as king. However, Robert feared that Daenerys would have a male child, and have the strength in arms to dispute his rule. How would Robert feel if he knew that one of Rhaegar's heirs still lived? Jon (Aegon is dead, remember) is Rhaegar's heir, and as such has a stronger claim for the throne than Robert. The question would be how many lords would support Jon for the Iron Throne. Since Jon is a Stark, the north would rise for him. Many in the reach would rise for him, and I presume Dorne as well. Jon is a powerful threat to Robert's or his heirs' rule.

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As for the marriage I'd have never imagined that it had happened (or might have) until someone enlightened me about their presence at the Tower.

I always thought they were there to protect Lyanna because Rhaegar asked them to do that (I thought just like you) but then it would make no sense to have the KG there and not with Viserys and his mom.

He didn't. And one thing that I just can't get is why Jon could end up as king (I get the part of his parentage). If someone manages to prove Cersei & Jaime's incest there will still be Stannis. So why would Aegon or even Jon be king then?

Sorry if this is a silly question but I never understood how would they take it from Stannis.

First part, about the KG at the TOJ, yes, exactly. Also, if you read the dialogue between Ned and the KG, both on a Meta and in-story level, it kind of goes like this:

" You weren't at the trident? I expected you there.

Well, yes, we weren't.

King's landing is sacked, and your brother Jaime killed the king (read: You weren't with your king either?)

Yes, otherwise he would still be king (So yeah, we weren't).

Darry is with Vyserys and Daenerys smuggling them out (read: but you aren't with the heirs either? WTF are you doing here)

We swore a vow! (and apparently,you are telling us all the things that happened, that the war has been lost, but we won't back out and will fight you to the death)"

It kind of forcefully leads us to the question, "Yeah, what are you doing there?". And Ned, who we know cares about honour a great much, never once asks himself, "What were they doing there? Well anyway, they are dead, I guess we will never know" and that's because Ned finds out what they were doing there shortly after. It makes a great deal of sense. Think about it.

About the second part - do you mean that Robert won the war anyway, so why would any of the Targ heirs be king? If so, yes, you're right, but their claim would be the same as Vyseris and after his death, Dany's when in exile. Robert is technically a usurper for them, and they are descendants of the royal lineage before him. Now, don't get me started on how I feel about this (the Targs were usurpers in the first place, and yes, they were brought down in a rebellion). But that's what it is. For example, Varys believes Aegon (real or fake) will get supporters and/or fight his way through, because he is "rightful" so that's what it is.

And finally, it's important that in this scenario, Jon was technically king for a little while. Yes, not prince, not anything, but king! With Aerys, Aegon, and Rhaegar dead, and before Robert gets crowned, the king of the seven kingdoms was Jon Snow.

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Robert was seated on the throne because there were no Targaryen heirs other than him. Robert's grandmother was a Targaryen, placing him in the line of succession. No one cared to have Viserys, who was in exile, as king. All of the lords supported Robert as king. However, Robert feared that Daenerys would have a male child, and have the strength in arms to dispute his rule. How would Robert feel if he knew that one of Rhaegar's heirs still lived? Jon (Aegon is dead, remember) is Rhaegar's heir, and as such has a stronger claim for the throne than Robert. The question would be how many lords would support Jon for the Iron Throne. Since Jon is a Stark, the north would rise for him. Many in the reach would rise for him, and I presume Dorne as well. Jon is a powerful threat to Robert's or his heirs' rule.

I'd argue Robert was seated on the Iron Throne because he won it by force. IMO, Robert used his Targaryen lineage to further solidify his claim to the throne, but once he took power, it instantly became a Baratheon dynasty, not a continuation of the Targaryen (I don't think you're arguing this point, but just wanted to clarify). We know Robert was very skilled at turning enemies into friends, and I'm sure referencing his targ descent was a tactic to bring the Targaryen loyalists over to his side more quickly.

While Robert had an extreme view of the remaining targs (killing the last of the dragon spawn), in theory he had the right of it. As long as there were Targaryen heirs, that meant there was a dynasty not far removed that could challenge his rule (should the people of Westeros start supporting them again)...

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First part, about the KG at the TOJ, yes, exactly. Also, if you read the dialogue between Ned and the KG, both on a Meta and in-story level, it kind of goes like this:

" You weren't at the trident? I expected you there.

Well, yes, we weren't.

King's landing is sacked, and your brother Jaime killed the king (read: You weren't with your king either?)

Yes, otherwise he would still be king (So yeah, we weren't).

Darry is with Vyserys and Daenerys smuggling them out (read: but you aren't with the heirs either? WTF are you doing here)

We swore a vow! (and apparently,you are telling us all the things that happened, that the war has been lost, but we won't back out and will fight you to the death)"

It kind of forcefully leads us to the question, "Yeah, what are you doing there?". And Ned, who we know cares about honour a great much, never once asks himself, "What were they doing there? Well anyway, they are dead, I guess we will never know" and that's because Ned finds out what they were doing there shortly after. It makes a great deal of sense. Think about it.

About the second part - do you mean that Robert won the war anyway, so why would any of the Targ heirs be king? If so, yes, you're right, but their claim would be the same as Vyseris and after his death, Dany's when in exile. Robert is technically a usurper for them, and they are descendants of the royal lineage before him. Now, don't get me started on how I feel about this (the Targs were usurpers in the first place, and yes, they were brought down in a rebellion). But that's what it is. For example, Varys believes Aegon (real or fake) will get supporters and/or fight his way through, because he is "rightful" so that's what it is.

And finally, it's important that in this scenario, Jon was technically king for a little while. Yes, not prince, not anything, but king! With Aerys, Aegon, and Rhaegar dead, and before Robert gets crowned, the king of the seven kingdoms was Jon Snow.

Isn't Jon then still technically King? Even though Robert was recognized as the new King of Westeros and sat the Iron Throne, Jon is still the Targaryen King, albeit in exile (and unbeknownst to him).

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Isn't Jon then still technically King? Even though Robert was recognized as the new King of Westeros and sat the Iron Throne, Jon is still the Targaryen King, albeit in exile (and unbeknownst to him).

Techninally it's not that definite. Robert was crowned before the Seven, and that's what technically counts. So during Robert's rule, he was a true king, no matter that Jon existed. Jon was a descendant of a previous dynasty, which was brought down "fair and square". But then we know Robert's descendants aren't his, so then after Robert is dead, it would be Jon. But then we've got Stannis. But then, still, Robert was crowned (and not Ned or Jon Arryn) because he has some Targaryen blood through his grandmother. These are all assuming Aegon is a fake, otherwise he has a better claim than Jon. So, a messed up magic roundabout.

In the end, it all comes to Varys', "Power resides where people believe it resides".

All of those being said are just technical hereditary issues, I am a firm believer that Jon's lineage will come to play in a mystical and not political way.

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If I recall these KG all were of the highest quality, the best of the best. Why, other then to proctect his heir, would Rheagar send them with Lyanna rather then to the Trident, or with Areys in Kings Landing, or to Dragonstone. As far as I am concerned he assumed that Areys was tucked away safe in Kings Landing, he never assumed he would lose at the Trident, therefore Dragonstone would remain in Targayen hands. The only unkonw (for Rheagar) was the safety of Lyanna, and his son, Jon.

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Robert was seated on the throne because there were no Targaryen heirs other than him. Robert's grandmother was a Targaryen, placing him in the line of succession. No one cared to have Viserys, who was in exile, as king. All of the lords supported Robert as king. However, Robert feared that Daenerys would have a male child, and have the strength in arms to dispute his rule. How would Robert feel if he knew that one of Rhaegar's heirs still lived? Jon (Aegon is dead, remember) is Rhaegar's heir, and as such has a stronger claim for the throne than Robert. The question would be how many lords would support Jon for the Iron Throne. Since Jon is a Stark, the north would rise for him. Many in the reach would rise for him, and I presume Dorne as well. Jon is a powerful threat to Robert's or his heirs' rule.

Thanks MtnLion. So if any Targaryen heir shows up will the throne go to he/she? No matter how p*ssed Cersei gets or how hard Stannis fights?

I hope Aegon is the real deal (or even a Blackfyre or whatever - I still have to digest this one as it is a new theory for me. I feel my brain turning into jelly right now hahahaha) so Jon doesn't have/need to be king of anything.

It kind of forcefully leads us to the question, "Yeah, what are you doing there?". And Ned, who we know cares about honour a great much, never once asks himself, "What were they doing there? Well anyway, they are dead, I guess we will never know" and that's because Ned finds out what they were doing there shortly after. It makes a great deal of sense. Think about it.

Hahahaha, yeah, I got that. By the 'would make no sense' part I was referring to "what the heck would the KG be doing at ToJ if Jon wasn't 'legit' (son of a married R & L)?" . Sorry, I should have expressed myself better :)

About the second part - do you mean that Robert won the war anyway, so why would any of the Targ heirs be king? If so, yes, you're right, but their claim would be the same as Vyseris and after his death, Dany's when in exile. Robert is technically a usurper for them, and they are descendants of the royal lineage before him. Now, don't get me started on how I feel about this (the Targs were usurpers in the first place, and yes, they were brought down in a rebellion). But that's what it is. For example, Varys believes Aegon (real or fake) will get supporters and/or fight his way through, because he is "rightful" so that's what it is.

And finally, it's important that in this scenario, Jon was technically king for a little while. Yes, not prince, not anything, but king! With Aerys, Aegon, and Rhaegar dead, and before Robert gets crowned, the king of the seven kingdoms was Jon Snow.

My thoughts, exactly. I couldn't get why Jon would be king now because it doesn't matter how Robert got the Iron Throne he just got it. His family are the rightful ones, be them Jaime's Robert's kids or Stannis.

All of those being said are just technical hereditary issues, I am a firm believer that Jon's lineage will come to play in a mystical and not political way.

Me too. I don't think GRRM build Jon to be king.

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Jon becoming King at some point would be the result of what he has done as the LC of the Night's Watch in the battle against the Others.

Combine that with the potential for him to be the trueborn heir to the Targaryen dynasty---whether Aegon is fAegon or even survives is another story---and he could be a rallying point and popular choice to take over the Iron Throne.

All depends on what happens in the story though.

That said, I've officially been won over on R+L=J because of 3 things:

1) The KINGSguard being there. They were there to watch an heir and eventually the King after Aerys, Rhaegar & Aegon died.

2) The fact that Dorne---particularly Oberyn---never once mentioned Rhaegar dishonoring his sister. I think her illness led to her giving Rhaegar her blessing to have another wife and another child so that his dragon could have three heads or whatever he was going for. Regardless, it was important for him to have one more child and being the history buff he was, I don't think he'd have risked starting another Blackfyre-type of civil outbreak.

3) Ned's disagreement that Rhaegar was evil with King Bob. If Ned---Captain Honor himself!---didn't think Rhaegar dishonorable then that just lines up with everything else we've suggested throughout R+L=J. Plus it also seems strongly out of character for him to break his own honor and father a bastard.

So I'm sold. Jon Snow is really Jon Targaryen with a Stark mother.

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Hahahaha, yeah, I got that. By the 'would make no sense' part I was referring to "what the heck would the KG be doing at ToJ if Jon wasn't 'legit' (son of a married R & L)?" . Sorry, I should have expressed myself better :)

No, I should have. I understood what you said and agreed with you and the "Think about, makes sense" was directed to nonbelievers, I was just expanding on your point :)

My thoughts, exactly. I couldn't get why Jon would be king now because it doesn't matter how Robert got the Iron Throne he just got it. His family are the rightful ones, be them Jaime's Robert's kids or Stannis.

It's kind of a double standart. Take the Blackfyre rebellion for example. They are part Targs (even more Targs than Robert) but if they had won, the next Blackfyre would have been heir, not any Targ or half-Targ that ever pops up. The Robert is part Targ I've always interpreted more that he is not a nobody and a self-proclaimed king than anything.

Also there is the point that Ned was utterly appaled with Tywin killing Elia and the kids, and of course, Dany and Vyseris, and there was a debate whether they should be killed, so it doesn't mean that all Targs shoud be eradicated. Robert would have done it out of hatred, but after winning the throne and the support of the most part of the realm, the Targ thing in Robert's blood was a secondary thing. That's how I've always viewed it.

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There are certainly plenty of scenarios that could play out that would put Jon in contention for the throne, assuming he gets out of the NW vows. Lets say, Jon is not dead but held captive by the userpers who stabbed him and siezed his power. They don't kill him for whatever reason, Melisandrem Queensmen, not upsetting other NW members etc.

100 Northern men arrive behind a Mormont van carrying Robb's will and trade Jon for 100 men Robb said he would give to release Jon from his vows. They go for it and release Jon to Robb's men and he is installed as King of the North.

At the same time, Aegon takes Kingslanding and maybe takes a wound. As he is concerned for his new Kingdown, and has no heirs, JonCon tells him he does have an heir. You see Rheagar confided in him that Lyann was pregnant, and JonCon puts it all togther. Aegon, you have a half brother, named after me, he was raised the bastard of Winterfell, but rose to LC of the NW.

Aegon thinks this is a good plausible heir, since Dany has yet to show up and names Jon Snow his heir.

Maybe thats the point of Aegon and JonCon, to win the throne for Jon.

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Jon is a bastard. He might be Raeghar's bastard but he is a bastard all the same. He can't become king without being legitimized. Besides, it is completely not in his nature. He is too humble, too focused on serving and remaining loyal. It's the Wall for him or nothing.

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Jon is a bastard. He might be Raeghar's bastard but he is a bastard all the same. He can't become king without being legitimized. Besides, it is completely not in his nature. He is too humble, too focused on serving and remaining loyal. It's the Wall for him or nothing.

Didn't you just read what we were discussing like 4-5 posts ago? If he was a bastard, do you have any explanation as to why the 3 best Kingsguard (their LC being one of them, Sword of the morning another one) are guarding a bastard?

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There are certainly plenty of scenarios that could play out that would put Jon in contention for the throne, assuming he gets out of the NW vows. Lets say, Jon is not dead but held captive by the userpers who stabbed him and siezed his power. They don't kill him for whatever reason, Melisandrem Queensmen, not upsetting other NW members etc.

100 Northern men arrive behind a Mormont van carrying Robb's will and trade Jon for 100 men Robb said he would give to release Jon from his vows. They go for it and release Jon to Robb's men and he is installed as King of the North.

At the same time, Aegon takes Kingslanding and maybe takes a wound. As he is concerned for his new Kingdown, and has no heirs, JonCon tells him he does have an heir. You see Rheagar confided in him that Lyann was pregnant, and JonCon puts it all togther. Aegon, you have a half brother, named after me, he was raised the bastard of Winterfell, but rose to LC of the NW.

Aegon thinks this is a good plausible heir, since Dany has yet to show up and names Jon Snow his heir.

Maybe thats the point of Aegon and JonCon, to win the throne for Jon.

I have my doubts about your theory.

Do you believe that Aegon is real?

I think he is fake, but if he is real Aegon has the better claim to the IT, because he is older than Jon why should he step aside for Jon? He has made it pretty clear that he wants to rule the 7 Kingdoms so i doubt that he would step aside for his younger half brother.

I don´t know how much Jon Con knows, but Aegon definitly thinks that he´s Rhaegar´s son. He´s Varys and Illyrio´s puppet do you think they just use him to put Jon on the IT? I don´t I think the realvation of Jon beeing a Targ has the potential to mess up their plans.

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