"Wow, I Never Noticed That."

[Ser Wun Wun]

Can you expand on it? Or just suggest a link? Thank you.

Oberyn Poisoned Tywin thread

It's a very good thread.

[Myrish Swamp Thing]

To me, seems like there's a lot hanging on circumstantial evidence.

[Fire Eater]

The warlocks Euron captured were Pyat Pree and his buddies who had set off in search of Dany. If not for this forum I never would have figured that out.

Ditto

Damphair was raped by Euron as a child, which explains his fear of the sound of an iron hinge

Rickon was on Skagos, a duh moment for me

[The Mountain That Posts]

Can you expand on it? Or just suggest a link? Thank you.

I can:

1.) Several characters throughout the books explain a certain poison which causes a man's bowels to clog and basically they die with their bladder exploding on the inside

2.) Oberyn is quite adapt at using poisons as Tyrion explains to Pod when they first meet him.

3.) Oberyn knows for a fact that Tywin ordered The Mountain, and also theorizes that Tywin had Ellia murdered too because Aerys had bethroed her to R over Cersei - couple this all with the fact that Oberyn promises Tyrion twice that Dorne will get it's revenge.

4.) Jaime notes that Tywin, Mace Tyrell and Oberyn were having breakfast together a few weeks before the Viper-VS-Mountain fight. This scene is particularly interesting since Jaime reflects that it's odd that Oberyn and Mace were breaking their fast together, which almost makes you forget that Tywin was even there. VERY brilliant word choice indeed.

5.) Tywin was on the privy, and Tyrion knew "exactly where he would be" - implying Tyrion had a feeling Oberyn had poisoned his dad. That or Tyrion just assumed his dad was shitting gold.

6.) If Tywin's bladder HAD exploded, but he just had yet to die, it would explain the terrible smell in the sept - it was the smell of Tywin's inner destruction and decay

Also, the seventh "purely speculated" clue, but less obvious if it's relevant or not:

7.) Shae was in Tywin's bed naked, implying she slept with Tywin. Either Tywin was a total hypocrite and had secretly loved whores despite chastising both his father and son for whoring, OR Tywin had known that he was about to die and wanted a woman to comfort him. (not sure about the exact details of this)

If I remember any more hints, i'll edit this post.

Edit: fuck, didn't see someone already responded with a link to a thread about it. Damn. :(

[Lion of Judah]

I completely missed the Oberyn poisoned Tywin thing and Taena Merryweather being one of Oberyn's spies. Also Oberyn's daughter Sarella, I didn't connect the dots.

[Ser Wun Wun]

I completely missed the Oberyn poisoned Tywin thing and Taena Merryweather being one of Oberyn's spies. Also Oberyn's daughter Sarella, I didn't connect the dots.

Is there a thread on that? :o

I thought she was a Tyrell spy for sure.

[The Mountain That Posts]

Is it confirmed that Taena Merryweather is a spy for the Dornish? I suppose that would make sense, it'd explain how Doran knows about Cersei's plan to have the Dornish prince killed, at least. (unless of course theory that Doran made that story up to enrage his kin is true)

[a free shadow]

Edit: fuck, didn't see someone already responded with a link to a thread about it. Damn. :(

Thank you still. The explanation how Tywin got doubly murdered should be double :D

[Winter's Knight]

Is it confirmed that Taena Merryweather is a spy for the Dornish? I suppose that would make sense, it'd explain how Doran knows about Cersei's plan to have the Dornish prince killed, at least. (unless of course theory that Doran made that story up to enrage his kin is true)

Wait what? When did Cersei make such a plan?

[Fire Eater]

Wait what? When did Cersei make such a plan?

Doran revealed in Hotah's ADwD POV. In AFfC, Cersei told the council she sent Balon Swann to Dorne with Gregor's head, but she had another task for him she didn't reveal to the council.

[Victor227]

One odd thing I noticed was when I was reading an Arys Oakheart chapter, and he mentioned the Blackfyre Rebellion, regarding the Dragonknight and that whole rumor business about Daeron being a bastard, and he credits Aegon the Unworthy with actually starting the rumor to de-legitimize his own heir in favor of Daemon Blackfyre. I'd always figured the rumor was something spread by Daemon himself. Was just an odd detail about that whole war which interested me. Seems Aegon the Unworthy was playing the two against each-other before he even died.

[Lion of Judah]

Is there a thread on that? :o

I thought she was a Tyrell spy for sure.

Yes it was discussed in a thread a while ago, but I can't find it right now. But Doran knows Ser Balon was setting him up for an ambush and he said as much to Areo Hotah even the part about the ambush party yelling 'halfman.' He certainly has or had a spy in KL to know that much information and the only person that makes sense is Lady Merryweather.

[The Mountain That Posts]

Wait what? When did Cersei make such a plan?

We don't know if she did or didn't. Doran Martell claims that she sent Ser Balon to deliver The Mountain's skull and bring the Prince of Dorne with Myrcella back to King's Landing, and then they'd be ambushed on the way and the Dornish prince would be murdered. Ser Balon, according to Doran, would also "swear" that he'd had seen Tyrion Lannister.

We ALSO know from Cersei's POV chapters in A Feast for Crows, when she sends Ser Balon to deliver The Mountain's skull, that she has "another plan" for Ser Balon as well. But we never actually see from her perspective what said plan IS.

There's two possibilities:

1.) Doran Martell made UP the story to enrage his kin and further their loyalty to his cause, as well as make them even more thirsty for revenge. (whether this fits your idea of Doran or not is speculative, there are well laid out theories that Darkstar was working for Doran as well and was both the spy AND also purposefully assaulted Myrcella on Doran's orders. At this point in the series, we don't have any idea how good or bad Prince Doran really is so no theory seems TOO far fetched as of yet) In addition to Doran making up the story, Cersei could also just happen to have had another plan for Ser Balon - which also explains why Ser Balon is so nervous at Sunspear.

OR

2.) Cersei's plan was the one that Doran laid out. Since Cersei didn't reveal this plan to Jaime or any of the Council, the only reasonable person she could've told it all to was Taena Merryweather - who therefore must ultimately be working for the Martells AND NOT the Tyrells as everyone seems to think. (unless of course, Taena is the spy for some middle man and the middle man relaid the message to Prince Doran. CONSIDERING we've already seen something like this before with Sansa telling Dontos about the planned Tyrell-Sansa wedding, then Dontos telling Littlefinger who then told Tywin Lannister, I think it's safe to assume that the idea of Taena working for a middle man actually isn't entirely out of the question. Albeit doubtful and slightly more complicated than the story needs to be)

Is there a thread on that? :o

I thought she was a Tyrell spy for sure.

Let's go through possible alligances, shall we? :)

Tyrell - Explains why Taena arrives in KL at the same time as the Tyrells, at least. BUT then Marg wouldn't have been arrested, Taena could've perhaps convinced Cersei not to lead Loras to his death, etc. and she wouldn't have turned in Senelle(unless the Tyrells are MUCH smarter than we thought and really wanted Taena to be a good spy and were even willing to sacrifice other people) All in all, not the Tyrells.

Varys - Was originally spying into the Tyrells, and she came up north with them. Would 100% explain how Varys knew lots about Renly and his campaign in ACoK and knowing how connected Varys is, would explain how Taena knew about Senelle - and also would explain why(to gain Cersei's trust AND destroy an enemy spy) Taena would reveal Senelle to Cersei. However, considering the fact Varys WANTS Cersei to keep causing trouble(as we learn in Kevan's chapter), it wouldn't make sense that Varys wouldn't have acted to rescue or keep Cersei FROM the faith. All in all, I think it's unlikely that Taena is one of the eunuch's spies. Also, she has a tongue. :P

Littlefinger - Eh, very little info for or against. But honestly, Taena seems more of the sit-back and watch type of spy. Wheras Littlefinger tends to manipulate things. So I feel like Taena just doesn't SEEM like a Littlefinger spy. All in all, no fucking idea how likely it is that she's working for LF but I doubt it.

Someone on Essos(not Illyrio, JonCon or the Golden Company) - Would make sense, considering Taena is originally FROM Essos. But, what would they have to gain from being a spy in Westeros? Doesn't seem like it makes sense to me. I suppose, if Illyrio doesn't trust Varys, that she could be one of Illyrio's pawns. But from what i've seen, I feel like it's more likely that Varys is manipulating Illyrio than the other way around. All in all, while someone in Essos goes along with Taena's background, nothing else seems to fall into place so she's not working for someone on the other continent.

The Faith / high septon - same as Littlefinger, honestly. But since he didn't establish his power till LATER in AFfC and she's introduced in ASoS, I feel this is highly unlikely. All in all, not the faith.

Martell - Considering the venom between Martell and Tyrell, this would explain why Taena was with the Tyrells to begin with. Moved up to KL and Doran realized that Taena could use her pre-established position of trust with Marg to reveal and turn on Senelle, and then move close to Cersei. It also explains why and HOW Doran knew about Cersei's plan to kill the Dornish Prince, if that is in fact her plan(see: top part of this post). Going back to her minimal role in A Storm of Swords, testifying at Tyrion's trial, this also goes hand in hand with The Viper's plans since the Viper most likely WANTS and plans on that trial of combat happening, even if he hasn't told Tyrion yet. Testfying against Tyrion(saying she saw Tyrion drop something in Joff's wine) gives Cersei something to trust AND gets the Red Viper closer to his goal. All in all, while it isn't 100% certain that she works for the Martells(again, middle man theory), I think it is safe to assume that she is most likely working for the Martells.

Also wasn't Myr involved with the War of the Ninepenny Kings? Would stand to reason that Oberyn met Lord Orton and/or Taena then and thus they've been Martell creatures ever since. This is just a loose theory though, no textual evidence to back this up.

[Victor227]

Yes it was discussed in a thread a while ago, but I can't find it right now. But Doran knows Ser Balon was setting him up for an ambush and he said as much to Areo Hotah even the part about the ambush party yelling 'halfman.' He certainly has or had a spy in KL to know that much information and the only person that makes sense is Lady Merryweather.

It's also rather interesting that Lady Merryweather was formerly in the company of Olenna Tyrell (the Tyrells being Dorne's rivals) as well, she comes from Myr, with Doran's wife having retreated to the Free Cities after a falling out over Quentyn (so perhaps a connection there). The previously mentioned Oberyn connection is another good one as well. All in all, the Martells have a lot more connections to the Free Cities than the other houses.

[a free shadow]

I even forgot, why I came in here. That is in no way an important thing, just my interpretation of symbolism. And I did not make that connection before, so :ninja:

When on the way from KL to the Wall Yoren and the rest burry one dead recruit, acorns are tossed into the grave. For an oak to grow out of the dead body. And later Arya is dressed "like an oak tree".

Also, Lady Smallwood, who fusses in dressing and pampering Arya, is of house Swann. And before, while on the road with Yoren, Arya sees a real swann thinking that one part of her wanted to be a swann and another part of her simply wanted to eat the bird. :blush:

[Diehard_si]

I clearly don't read these forums enough...

Frey pie? I'm guessing that Manderly is responsible for the Freys going missing in winterfell and is cooking them and feeding them to the other freys? Or am I off the mark?

[The Mountain That Posts]

It's also rather interesting that Lady Merryweather was formerly in the company of Olenna Tyrell (the Tyrells being Dorne's rivals) as well, she comes from Myr, with Doran's wife having retreated to the Free Cities after a falling out over Quentyn (so perhaps a connection there). The previously mentioned Oberyn connection is another good one as well. All in all, the Martells have a lot more connections to the Free Cities than the other houses.

There are theories that the Martell-and-Tyrell feud is entirely a staged one.

The letters that the Red Viper and Ser Willas were sending back and forth is the biggest argument for this.

ETA: Diehard_si, you are on the mark indeed.

[willy york]

when it dawned on me that the ultimate villain in this story is hot pie

[Batman]

I never noticed Ayras attraction to Gendry

[Ingelheim]

I never noticed Ayras attraction to Gendry

Nah but that's because you are Batman.

I never noticed that too :dunno: