Coming Back From Death Sucks

[Larry of the Lawn]

He hasn't been mentioned once in AFfC or ADwD if I remember correctly. And he was only mentioned a few times in ACoK and a ASoS, and it's understandable why, given Tywin being obsessed with the family image at all.

I'm not seeing it. I think it'd be too unrealistic and far fetched if Varys kidnapped Tyrek during the riot. And wasn't he like 12? "HEY BOY, I'M GOING TO HIDE YOU AWAY AND TRAIN YOU TO BE A GOOD LORD" - even if IT DOES turn out this way and he comes back, I doubt he'll be too inclined to genuinely help Varys out.

Tyrek is mentioned several times in AFFC.

I don't think GRRM is lazy or incompetent, I think he's brilliant. That being said, I think it's impossible to dissect ANY work of art(whether it be a album, a painting, a book, etc.) without looking at the flaws. GRRM's biggest flaw is his overuse of sleight of hand. (everyone seems to have ONE thing about these books they dislike, i've heard the food porn is another popular hate factor - but I don't even notice it really)

Select characters like Sandor Clegane and Benjen and Rickon MAKE SENSE to come back because they've been built up so much, characters keep mentioning them, etc. - other characters like Tyrek and Syrio, however, are basically nobodies to the story at large and bringing them back is IMO both unrealistic and overall lazy/uninspired due to the fact there's no build up for WHY this would be shocking.

But there's something about Davos being "killed" three times, Brienne being "hanged", Arya getting "hit with an axe", RIckon and Bran supposedly being burned/flayed alive, etc. that is just... so unbelievable. Maybe it's just me, but I can always tell when GRRM is bluffing a character's "death" and when he's actually killing a character. (again, the exception for me was zombie cat)

DogLover, I think at this point we're just supposed to assume he was kidnapped/raped/murdered in the riot. No big mystery there. It happens, it's realistic. WHat? Varys kidnapped him for his info on Robert and he's planning on rising him up to be lord of Casterly Rock? Eh, sounds just as farfetched as Syrio coming back.

Like you said, you can tell they aren't really dead, so what's the big deal?

I think it's unlikely that Syrio will be coming back, Tyrek maybe. I guess I just don't see a whole lot of people coming back from the dead, other than Cat, Beric, and Robert Strong. I also think Melisandre might be undead.

Even with these dead characters though, like everyone's saying, they're not who they were before. And I don't think we have to worry about a 'curveball' like having Renly or Robert come back from the dead.

[The Mountain That Posts]

Like you said, you can tell they aren't really dead, so what's the big deal?

I just think it's poor storywriting and one of the very few things about GRRM's writing style that I dislike.

If GRRM was the girl and his sleight of hand was the wolf, then nobody would've listened to GRRM the girl since ASoS due to his constant "plot twists" of characters not being dead.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I just think it's poor storywriting and one of the very few things about GRRM's writing style that I dislike.

If GRRM was the girl and his sleight of hand was the wolf, then nobody would've listened to GRRM the girl since ASoS due to his constant "plot twists" of characters not being dead.

Which is going to make it that much more impactful when the wolf finally shows up.

[The Mountain That Posts]

Which is going to make it that much more impactful when the wolf finally shows up.

You're saying faking deaths often makes it more surprising/intense when he actually kills off characters?

Eh, I guess.

[Larry of the Lawn]

I just think it's poor storywriting and one of the very few things about GRRM's writing style that I dislike.

If GRRM was the girl and his sleight of hand was the wolf, then nobody would've listened to GRRM the girl since ASoS due to his constant "plot twists" of characters not being dead.

So what would be an improvement? Say when Arya get's whacked in the head with the axe. Should there just be one more sentence that says "But she was only knocked unconscious, and new she'd be fine in a few hours."?

I guess what I'm getting at is that with Davos, Arya, Tyrion - the characters actually thought they might be killed, so we're with them in that fear or knowledge of imminent death. I like the 'cliffhangers' because it puts you more into the emotional state of the POV character. I think you'd lose that by having the author explicitly tell us that they are not in fact dead, especially since, like you said, the reader knows that the character isn't actually being killed off.

[The Mountain That Posts]

But there's a difference. With Tyrion specifically, GRRM never tries to make you THINK he's dead. He's in scary situations, yes, but GRRM doesn't end Tyrion chapters with a "he's dead" esque ending and make vague statements which make the character's fate uncertain.

He does with everyone else, however.

[Larry of the Lawn]

But there's a difference. With Tyrion specifically, GRRM never tries to make you THINK he's dead. He's in scary situations, yes, but GRRM doesn't end Tyrion chapters with a "he's dead" esque ending and make vague statements which make the character's fate uncertain.

He does with everyone else, however.

What about the end of the Blackwater?

My point is that it he's putting you into the characters head - when Arya or Davos thinks they might die, we know that they feel that. I just don't think it's poor writing. Operator failure.

[Teren_Kanan]

Never really understood this view with the books, when literally the first chapter has a resurrected zombie in it...

As for fake deaths, it has to do with the setting. In old days death was generally word of mouth, not like you could take a picture of a dead body as proof. Very easy to fake a death in those settings.

[Stannis ftw]

Oh come on. I think all these resurrections are so cheap. GRRM should stop doing these. Even in Harry Potter which is a child book only 1 person we tought dead is still alive and none resurrects. What do you think about it?

I also think the resurrections are big fail. The drama of death comes precisely from its finality. By this point GRRM has established kind of "un-finality" of death, and drama has gone out of the window. Stabbing of Jon is probably meant to be dramatic event, only it´s not, because, well, he might not die and even if he dies, he will come back.

[Lion of Judah]

I didn't like the resurrection of Lady Stoneheart because she has yet to do anything other than hang Freys. Bringing back Gregor will only make sense if you bring back Sandor as well. Else what does it serve the story to have a big cumbersome, half dead, halfwit who doesn't speak?

[Myrish Swamp Thing]

I didn't like the resurrection of Lady Stoneheart because she has yet to do anything other than hang Freys.

You speak as if there's something wrong with that.

As for the subject matter, Apple Martini (?) makes a good point saying misinformation is plentiful. Still, less death fakeouts would be nice. As for actual deaths-resurrections, I don't mind as long as there are few and there is a cost, as has happened so far. I will admit I'm a bit nervous for how George will handle the Jon situation.

[Lion of Judah]

You speak as if there's something wrong with that.

As for the subject matter, Apple Martini (?) makes a good point saying misinformation is plentiful. Still, less death fakeouts would be nice. As for actual deaths-resurrections, I don't mind as long as there are few and there is a cost, as has happened so far. I will admit I'm a bit nervous for how George will handle the Jon situation.

No sir, nothing wrong with hanging Freys at all, I just wish she did more that just hang Freys.

[Dr. Pepper]

Oh come on. I think all these resurrections are so cheap. GRRM should stop doing these. Even in Harry Potter which is a child book only 1 person we tought dead is still alive and none resurrects. What do you think about it?

Which one is cheap? Beric? Lady Stoneheart? Cat would have been cheap if there hadn't been a prior example with a minor character. It's not as though Martin didn't introduce reanimation in the prologue of the very first book. Reanimation shown in the first prologue should give the reader the expectation that they will see it again.

Another reason I don't believe Tyrek has any purpose is he hasn't been introduced in the slightest in the TV show. Faulty logic, I know.

Yes, it's faulty logic because the show is not the books. Two different mediums. There are a lot of characters from the books who have not been introduced in the show. Some characters in the show who did not appear in the books. The show has about ten hours a year to adapt 1000 pages of text.

[Thendel]

When I read the title, I thought the OP was referring to a point GRRM has been trying to make repeatedly concerning Beric and Catelyn: Coming back to life sucks. The person that is resurrected is inferior as a character to the one that died, and so it begs the question: Weren't they better off as persons without resurrection, and is death really the worst thing that can happen to a person?

But no, OP is actually of the opinion that the resurrections of Beric, Catelyn and Gregor are cheap plot devices. I really do disagree.

Beric's coming back to life is the prime of example of how a character in GRRM's world can lose their personality bit by bit when they confront evil repeatedly and are given no mercy. Beric goes from being a young and bold lordling doing the bidding of the Hand of the King, to a man whose mission becomes without prejudice in its persecution of the evildoers in the area, to a walking corpse that has more or less forgotten who he was or why he cared so much in the first place. A sad but true testament to how a war veteran is no longer the man that went into war in the first place, even in our days.

Catelyn is as of yet an unfinished story, but we can surmise that she is a representative of how the vengefulness has arisen in a Westeros ravaged by war: Where her goals were once clear and precise, her sole purpose of existence is to punish all those who wronged her, completely unconcerned with the values of justice and morality. Her story in Feast is a depressing testament to how people can lose themselves in vengeance, and one does not need to be undead to appreciate why she has fallen so low - Lem Lemoncloak, for example, has adopted the blind aggression of "the Hound" because of how bitter he is.

Gregor Clegane, I believe, is dead in spirit, but not bodily. Robert Strong is a walking corpse, a Frankenstein, but I'll be dumbstruck if it actually is sentient, much less having a personality that resembles Gregor.

As for Jon: Wait and fucking see. He's not even confirmed dead, and you are already assuming he'll be resurrected with no problem and get up and be our heroic Jon again like it never happened. Considering what happened to everybody else that were resurrected, I really doubt he'd be unchanged, or that resurrection, if he really died, will come without a dear price.

[Ghost of Groat]

With the Others being necromancers I suspect when they encounter an un-char they will immediately take possession.

[Melonica Stormborn]

I never was tricked by GRRM with those cliffhangers so in the end I didn't mind. Not everything needs to be spelled out. It's like a movie or TV show where the scene ends with e.g. Arya being hit by an axe, with the next scene being of her waking up and trying to remember. We also have to consider that the POV system affects our perception of the cliffhanger trick. If one reads a specific POV's chapters continuously like a mini-novel, I reckon the issue won't be noticeable. The spaces between a POV's chapter is what could make it frustrating.

As for actual resurrections (Beric or UnCat), I'm not really against it. While I value the finality of death, I understand that we are dealing with a world where it is possible to cheat death. Also, it was pretty apparent that you can cheat death but you can't escape it. Everytime you resurrect, a part of you dies, until nothing remains but one final death.

Ultimately what these resurrections signify to me is the consistency of the world being built by GRRM in the sense that supernatural feats can be accomplished again by somebody as long as the needed ingredients and knowhow are there. It's like science, you need to be able to repeat the results to confirm validity, and I find it compelling.

[Blue Moon]

The resurrection of a character, after they are definitely dead, is something that the writer must handle very skillfully or it will cheapen the

entire story. When it is used merely to give the reader or viewer an emotional wallop, and the supposedly "dead" character pops up alive

again with some lame explanation that is the equivalent of nevermind, it seriously undermines the narrative. It also helps if the story is set

in a world where the fantastical is woven into other elements of the story(dragons, warging, etc.)

Apart from the wights,there have only been two confirmed resurrections, Lord Beric and Lady Catelyn. Robert Strong is, probably, at least

in part, Gregor Clegane, but what is really going on there is yet to be revealed. The other undeaths are either cliffhangers (Arya and the axe,

Brienne and the BWB), misinformation (Davos and, possibly, the Hound), or the actual fate of the character remains unclear (Tyrek, Syrio,

Benjen, Gerion).

For me, the resurrections have been few enough, and GRRM has handled them well enough, that they don't detract from the series. They add

to the possibilities of what might happen next. I definitely think that Jon is in for a resurrection, but I hope he keeps his personality due to warging

into Ghost.