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Old Gods, cold gods and Starks: a Heretic re-read


nanother

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EDITED:

The Heresy threads are a place for prolific and high quality discussion about the true nature of the main conflict that's unfolding in the books - the nature of the Others, their possible connection to the Children of the Forest, the purpose and effect of the Wall, and the place of the Starks and the Night's Watch in all this - spreading out to a wide range of related topics.

This thread covers the Jon and Bran chapters from AGoT, as well as a selection of other PoV chapters that seemed Heretically relevant. Dany has her own thread.

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Index of chapter summaries:

Prologue http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79306-old-gods-cold-gods-and-starks-a-heretic-re-read/#entry3987620

Bran I&Cat I (the execution) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79306-old-gods-cold-gods-and-starks-a-heretic-re-read/page-3#entry3994779

Bran I (the direwolves) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79306-old-gods-cold-gods-and-starks-a-heretic-re-read/page-4#entry3996584

Ned I (the crypts) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79306-old-gods-cold-gods-and-starks-a-heretic-re-read/page-7#entry4015858

Cat II (the argument and Lysa's letter) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79306-old-gods-cold-gods-and-starks-a-heretic-re-read/page-8#entry4041827

Bran II (the fall) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79306-old-gods-cold-gods-and-starks-a-heretic-re-read/page-8#entry4045197

Jon II (farewells), Tyrion II (journey to the Wall) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79306-old-gods-cold-gods-and-starks-a-heretic-re-read/page-10#entry4071597

Excerpts from skipped chapters http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79306-old-gods-cold-gods-and-starks-a-heretic-re-read/page-11#entry4075506

Bran III (the 3EC) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79306-old-gods-cold-gods-and-starks-a-heretic-re-read/page-11#entry4082353

Jon III (coping with the NW) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79306-old-gods-cold-gods-and-starks-a-heretic-re-read/page-12#entry4100038

Tyrion III (dinner and talk with Mormont) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79306-old-gods-cold-gods-and-starks-a-heretic-re-read/page-13#entry4116251

Stuff from slipped chapters http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79306-old-gods-cold-gods-and-starks-a-heretic-re-read/page-14#entry4121672

Bran IV (Last Hero talre, Tyrion is back) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79306-old-gods-cold-gods-and-starks-a-heretic-re-read/page-15#entry4127711

Jon IV (Sam) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79306-old-gods-cold-gods-and-starks-a-heretic-re-read/page-16#entry4185134

Skipped stuff http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79306-old-gods-cold-gods-and-starks-a-heretic-re-read/page-17#entry4199544

Bran V (Wolfswood) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79306-old-gods-cold-gods-and-starks-a-heretic-re-read/page-17#entry4207300

Jon V http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79306-old-gods-cold-gods-and-starks-a-heretic-re-read/page-17#entry4230701

Jon VI (the wow) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79306-old-gods-cold-gods-and-starks-a-heretic-re-read/page-18#entry4238151

Jon VII (the wight attack) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79306-old-gods-cold-gods-and-starks-a-heretic-re-read/page-18#entry4256545

Bran VI (the gathering of hosts) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79306-old-gods-cold-gods-and-starks-a-heretic-re-read/page-19#entry4272473

Jon VIII http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79306-old-gods-cold-gods-and-starks-a-heretic-re-read/page-20#entry4315094

Skipped stuff http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79306-old-gods-cold-gods-and-starks-a-heretic-re-read/page-20#entry4332599

Bran VII (Ned's death) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79306-old-gods-cold-gods-and-starks-a-heretic-re-read/page-20#entry4360547

Jon IX (desertion) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79306-old-gods-cold-gods-and-starks-a-heretic-re-read/page-20#entry4582448

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Thanks for starting the thread, nanother!

I'm in the middle of a translation, but I'll join up as soon as I can. If you want, you can just post reading schedules, and then everyone can post their impression. For instance, let's say The Prologue is for tomorrow and Bran I is two/three days later so everyone has time to read and we have enough time to discuss. But I'll be happy with whatever schedule we have :)

Yay! A Heretic re-read! :commie:

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Aiming for a chapter roughly in every 2-3 days sounds good to start with: that should give everyone time to read and think about it, and also enough continuity to pick up on the connections. I think it'd be useful to have a (heresy-oriented) summary for each chapter, so I'll try to do that for the Prologue, but I won't necessarily have the time and motivation to do it for every chapter. In any case, I agree that everyone posting his/her impressions should work just fine.

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I want to participate, but I don't have a lot of time....was hoping for a slower pace. :eek:

So....read prologue now and discuss, when?

We can go slower if you like...there's no need to rush. What would be manageable for you?

ETA: I'm in the process of writing up a post about the Prologue, but suffered a rather large setback when my editor crashed...I might post it soon, though

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Prologue for starters. Read whenever you have time, make notes if you like and then post whenever you have time, I guess we'll start tomorrow. We'll discuss and move on to Bran as we see fit, or simply start the next week with Bran. The Prologue has so much in it, it will probably take time to discuss - at least I hope so :) don't worry, it's not too time consuming, you'll see.

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OK, two chapters/week sounds good. Let us know if you're having trouble, though.

ETA: I'll try to finish the prologue post before going to sleep. It might be worth reading and discussing both chapters over the weekend, assuming that Feather has more time then...

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Yeah, I mean I'm all for making plans as we go along, don't like planning ahead too much :D but feel free to plan ahead if you so desire, I'm happy with agreeing on 2 chapters weekly as well, for starters...

ETA: nanother - sure, I for one don't mind... when we re-read those chapters for evita's thread the Prologue opened up all kinds of topics, but we ended up jumping to Bran too soon.... but I think we'll manage

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I'll do my best to keep up! Thank you for understanding. I'm traveling over the weekend, but should be able to read sporadically.

I'm not as learned on ancient Celtic folklore or most of the other outside subjects that many bring up, but I think being ignorant of these things can be viewed in a positive light since my thoughts will be formed from a more intuitive perspective. That's not to say that i'm uneducated, because I've studied fine art, commercial art and graphic design. I understand visual images better than literal, and tend to focus on the big picture rather than minute details.

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Here. There's certainly a lot to discuss in this chapter. WARNING: loooong post coming. And that's only scratching the surface...

Prologue:

An oft-discussed chapter, featuring the first encounter with the mysterious foes beyond the Wall, the Others. Quite a few details are provided about their appearance, abilities, and, yes, even social behaviour. Also, the reactions of Gared and Will, the two experienced rangers are sometimes used to glean some information about the Watch's history with the Others and wights.

The rangers:

Gared, a Black Brother since his teens, in the 40 or so years he served he must have seen a number of winters beyond the Wall.

Will spent 'only' 4 years on the Wall, and went beyond it a hundred times, but no winters for him. Therefore, when he says 'Something was different tonight', we don't know if it's really different from other winters-about-to-come.

Their commander, Ser Waymar Royce, a 'green boy', with too little experience, and too big ego*. Remarkably, his family has some distant relations with the Starks, if the wiki can be believed, but where's that in the books? The only thing I found was a Stark female marrying into the junior branch of House Royce, but that doesn't affect Waymar (Also, the house words are: 'We remember'. The irony.)

The wildlings:

Presumably bound for Mance's host in the Frostfangs, they made their camp somewhere north of Craster's Keep (we know from a later Jon chapter that the rangers passed it). When Will finds them, the 8 of them lay motionless next to a firepit that was recently used (not covered by the snow the night before), with weapons (at least the axe) casually lying around, no sign of violence. There's a sentinel on a tree in a similar state. Seems to me that both Will's assessment and Gared's guess about the cold being what killed them are correct, only it wasn't just any old cold, but the one the Others bring with them...

The Others:

  • there's a whole pack of them, at least 6; the behaviour of the 'pack' was discussed quite a lot in Heresies...I'll quote the encounter below.
  • they bring cold with them
  • their non-humanity is stressed multiple times
  • they are described as being just about in the range of human perception: up to the point when the first Other emerges, Will is unsure what he really saw, if anything; the sound their sword makes is a 'high, thin sound at the edge of hearing'; their movements are described with the words 'sliding', 'gliding', 'shivering' (the sword)
  • 'white shadow in the darkness'
  • their armour is more than just reflective, it seems to be shifting patterns on its own accord
  • they can talk (do they have their own language, or do they use one of the Old Tongue/True Tongue?) and laugh, and their swords scream when met with steel, but otherwise they make no sound at all
  • their sword is 'alive with moonlight', and screaming; also, imbued with a blue 'ghost-light' - the same blue light as in the wights' eyes?
  • also, the sword cuts through ringmail easily, but doesn't damage the sword apart from covering it with frost until it finally shatters; I'm clueless about weapons and armour so no idea if that's significant...

There was much discussion of mists and wind in relation to the Others, so here it is,

the wind:

Approaching the wildling camp:

A cold wind whispered through the trees. His great sable cloak stirred behind like something half-alive.

“There’s something wrong here,” Gared muttered.

...

[ser Waymar] stood there beside the sentinel, longsword in hand, his cloak billowing behind him as the wind came up, outlined nobly against the stars for all to see.

“Get down!” Will whispered urgently. “Something’s wrong.”

Will climbing on the sentinel:

The wind was moving. It cut right through him.

...

Will saw movement from the corner of his eye. Pale shapes gliding through the wood. He turned his head, glimpsed a white shadow in the darkness. Then it was gone. Branches stirred gently in the wind, scratching at one another with wooden fingers.

And then, when the first Other emerges:

“Come no farther,” the lordling warned. His voice cracked like a boy’s. He threw the long sable cloak back over his shoulders, to free his arms for battle, and took his sword in both hands. The wind had stopped. It was very cold.

Wind, from the north, was also mentioned during the journey, along with the feeling of being watched.

That, and the events in the wildling camp, make it look suspiciously like an elaborate display (or test?) for the rangers**: the wildlings must have died (and re-animated) the night before (the firepit is not snowed on), but they stayed in place, only to move on after Will found them. Attracted as wights seem to be to blood, they're conspicuously absent from the scene. I guess either the wights were kept there and then driven away by the Others as convenient, or Martin haven't yet worked out how they should behave, at the time of writing this.

What was the Others' purpose? Did the encounter work out as they intended?

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took.

Will heard the breath go out of Ser Waymar Royce in a long hiss.

“Come no farther,” the lordling warned. His voice cracked like a boy’s. He threw the long sable cloak back over his shoulders, to free his arms for battle, and took his sword in both hands. The wind had stopped. It was very cold.

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

Ser Waymar met him bravely. “Dance with me then.” He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant. His hands trembled from the weight of it, or perhaps from the cold. Yet in that moment, Will thought, he was a boy no longer, but a man of the Night’s Watch.

The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope.

They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them . . . four . . . five . . .

The exchange of blows goes on so long that the 'strange anguished keening' of the clashing blades becomes unbearable. Meanwhile

Behind him, to right, to left, all around him, the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood. Yet they made no move to interfere.

Then Royce’s parry came a beat too late. The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow. Ser Waymar’s fingers brushed his side. His moleskin glove came away soaked with red.

There was some discussion about how Royce's blade shatters right after the Other has drawn blood...it sure looks suspicious, but I'm not convinced there's a connection.

The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking.

Ser Waymar Royce found his fury. “For Robert!” he shouted, and he came up snarling, lifting the frost-covered longsword with both hands and swinging it around in a flat sidearm slash with all his weight behind it. The Other’s parry was almost lazy.

When the blades touched, the steel shattered.

...

The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles.

--

*To be fair, apart from being an utter prick about it, his determination to find out what's going on is laudable, and I can't really blame him for his incredulity either, but his behaviour was stupid and immature nevertheless...

**I got similar impressions about the wight attack at Castle Black

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Nonother - Nice post. What struck me about it is the idea that once Royce's blood was spilt the rest of the pack moves in to complete what the first Other started. Royce is no longer a "threat" and yet, the other Others join in to "butcher" him. The Others are acting as pack predators do, one brings the prey down, the others join in to complete the slaughter and then feed.

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At the very beginning we see Royce mocking Gared and asking him if he fears the dead and afterwards if he fears the dark/night - both the dead/death and the dark are things humans fear at least subconsciously and Royce's taunting of a man much older and experienced shows his own stupidity the more here, as well as taking death and darkness for granted beyond the Wall... although I too agree that he at least held his ground in this chapter against the Other. The whole conversation on the dead and Gared's comment: "Dead is dead", is a bit ironic in light of the dead, well, being dead but re-animated, as we find out later on. As the Pet Sematary tag line goes: Sometimes dead's better...

There is a feeling of unease and gloom about Will and Gared - they can't say what it is exactly, they just sense it: "Under the wounded pride, Will could sense something else in the older man. You could taste it; a nervous tension that came perilous close to fear." Will says he shared Gared's unease and that he felt the darkness closing in on them more and more with every day (as if it were hunting them and gaining) but that today was the worst: "Something was different tonight. There was an edge to this darkness that made his hackles rise." There's an emphasis on sensing the threat of the Others coming. Those gut feelings we all have from time to time. Well, Gared and Will seem to feel the unease and irrational fear more and more as the days pass and the Others are probably nearer, almost like their presence triggers these primal, instinctual reactions in humans. Later on we will also see Chet having an emotional reaction when Others are near. It's as if the Others are constantly reaching for pray in their Wild Hunts, just like a skinchanger would reach for his familiar... just my take on it, of course.

"A cold wind was blowing out of the north, and made the trees rustle like living things." Trees like living things, rustling leaves... trying to warn them what is near?

Another line that is interesting: "It burns, it does. Nothing burns like the cold." Cold/ice, at its extreme, shares this property with fire... hm... an example of fire and ice being polar opposites of the same magic?

We find out that the cold they feel really is unnatural, as the Wall is weeping - a sure sign of warm weather. The Wildlings froze because Others brought the extreme cold with them, and it's the same cold the rangers and Royce are getting a taste of as they go in search of the dead Wildlings - the cold winds/cold gods as cruel as they are, give you time to run away, if you know what the winds bring with them...

As the cold increases as they go deeper through the woods, both Gared and Will suspect what comes for them - Gared wants to start a fire, as it is useful against "bears, direwolves and... other things". Will is frightened while climbing the tree to the point that he needs to take out his dirk and hold it in his teeth, comforted by the iron. Fire and iron being at least some defence against the Others... so, I imagine in their minds, they can't imagine it could be them, but their gut feeling makes them do otherwise. As Gared had said: "listen to the darkness", sometimes it's the darkness of the subconscious and not the light of the rational that we should listen to.

It's also interesting to note that the cold wind that is mentioned throughout the chapter stops only when the Other finally materializes. We have discussed this recently in Heresy, that the Storm God of the Ironborn may be the air element manifesting in different ways (manipulating water through storms/forming Others through cold winds/ice storms) and therefore called different names, but basically being the same thing. Spirits of the air? Also, the remains of Royce's sword is twisted like a tree struck by lightning. Hm... Again this extreme cold that burns.

The screaming of the Other's blade still intrigues me - I thought it was a sign that the blade was part of the Other's arm, part of its body, and the scream is the pain experienced from contact with iron/steel... no proof whatsoever, so it's just a musing... as well as my hive mind musing, the only quote that kind of illustrates it is in the Prologue: "The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given."

Also, am I the only one that imagines the Others a bit like that T-1000 liquid metal terminator? Only more um... fearie like? :laugh:

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Also, am I the only one that imagines the Others a bit like that T-1000 liquid metal terminator? Only more um... fearie like? :laugh:

Funnily enough one of Tommy Patterson's early sketches was of a Terminator-like figure. However GRRM didn't like it at all and that's where he got into the exchange that culminated in the Sidhe email.

As to the keening noise I don't reckon that's our man screaming in pain because his sword is part of him - you've obviously never been in a metalworking shop, because the screaming and keening as metal is ground and sheered has to be heard to be believe. I think all that GRRM is doing here is ramping it up to emphasise that the sword is no "earthly metal".

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Har, you're right - never been in a metal working shop and I avoid any similar situation as I am the elephant in a china shop - very clumsy, so I dare not enter any work shop with bits and pieces scattered around...

I've seen the GRRM approved calendar image of the Others, only thing I would change is make them taller, more gaunt, but otherwise they're really cool... but I'd sure like it if they had some of that liquid metal look to them :blush:

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Nonother - Nice post. What struck me about it is the idea that once Royce's blood was spilt the rest of the pack moves in to complete what the first Other started. Royce is no longer a "threat" and yet, the other Others join in to "butcher" him. The Others are acting as pack predators do, one brings the prey down, the others join in to complete the slaughter and then feed.

Yes, they all share the blood :devil:

Even so, otherwise I don't think they behave entirely like predators: predators don't mock the prey, and more important, they don't make their presence known until they must.

Also, what did they want from Waymar? If they wanted blood, they could have had the wildlings the night before. :dunno:

--

Crackpot, but kind of makes sense: they killed Ser Waymar simply because he challenged them.

The uneasy feeling Will and Gared had was meant to keep them away. If not for Royce, it would have been enough to scare the other two away. When they didn't turn back, not only that, but Royce stood on the ridge 'outlined nobly against the stars for all to see', they took that as a challenge and got worried, because they assumed Royce knew what he was doing.

So a team went there to investigate. The leader provoked Ser Waymar to draw his sword, so they all could take a good look at it. After determining that it's not dragonglass, or dragonsteel (whatever that is) and not Ice, they relaxed and let the leader deal with him, mocking him for being such an idiot.

--

@ Little Wing

Yeah, I think the clash between Royce and the other two establishes (yet another) ongoing issue in the books, often occurring along the lowborn-highborn line. Royce is right in wanting to find out what happened, and I agree (with him) that what can be explained by facts and logic, should be. However, he refuses to acknowledge the limits of his understanding, and to accept the Will and Gared's instincts as a valid form of knowledge. Those two are also right to want to be careful, but their attitude of 'we did what we had to, if things don't make sense it's not our fault, now let's save our skin', while understandable, endangers the whole Watch in the long run by obscuring important information. What the Watch needs is balance - someone who values knowledge enough to take risks to gain it, but has the sense to know when to quit...

Mostly, all this indicates serious leadership issues at the NW. Gared 'has seen lordlings come and go', so this is not an isolated incident. You'd think they'd try to come up with ways to beat the hubris out of these lordlings...

"A cold wind was blowing out of the north, and made the trees rustle like living things." Trees like living things, rustling leaves... trying to warn them what is near?

Hmmm...

Another line that is interesting: "It burns, it does. Nothing burns like the cold." Cold/ice, at its extreme, shares this property with fire... hm... an example of fire and ice being polar opposites of the same magic?

Indeed, this oxymoron returns at least once more in the Prologue, to describe the Other's eyes: 'a blue that burned like ice'; and probably many times throughout the series...

The screaming of the Other's blade still intrigues me - I thought it was a sign that the blade was part of the Other's arm, part of its body, and the scream is the pain experienced from contact with iron/steel... no proof whatsoever, so it's just a musing... as well as my hive mind musing, the only quote that kind of illustrates it is in the Prologue: "The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given."

I'm not sure about the screaming in the light of Black Crow's remark, but Martin sure goes out of his way to make the sword appear as a living entity. The 'pale blue ghost-light' is also curious. At first I thought it might be the same light that's in the wights' eyes, but that's deep burning blue, so probably not. Their blood is pale blue, but that doesn't seem to fit with the 'ghost-light'. Not sure what to make of it, or if it's significant at all.

As for the hive mind, interesting that Will describes the additional White Walkers as 'twins to the first', and also as 'faceless'. It can be taken to suggest that they lack individuality, but it also could be intended to further emphasize their non-human character.

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Ser Waymar does come in for a lot of criticism, but I think its a matter of perspective. He's certainly recognisable as a keen young officer (Question: Why is a young officer like a lighthouse in the desert? Answer: Because he's very very bright but no ******** use) and equally Gared is similarly recognisable (been there, done it) as the NCO who has not only seen it all but is going out of his way to emphasise it. Ser Waymar is exactly right in his decisions, or rather would have been right if he was dealing with Wildlings. He really can't be faulted, easy though it is to be critical.

The problem I think actually lies with Gared. He knows there's something wrong, and from what he says, he also knows what it is, but he's unable to articulate what he knows in a way that is comprehensible.

So off he goes and what happens next does seem odd, because the dead Wildlings are gone, never to be seen or mentioned again. Were they initially left lying there as bait, and then withdrawn to clear the ground for a duel? Or did Ser Waymar simply stumble upon something he was never meant to find?

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Ser Waymar does come in for a lot of criticism, but I think its a matter of perspective. He's certainly recognisable as a keen young officer (Question: Why is a young officer like a lighthouse in the desert? Answer: Because he's very very bright but no ******** use) and equally Gared is similarly recognisable (been there, done it) as the NCO who has not only seen it all but is going out of his way to emphasise it. Ser Waymar is exactly right in his decisions, or rather would have been right if he was dealing with Wildlings. He really can't be faulted, easy though it is to be critical.

I mostly agree, although standing on the ridge laughing is beyond stupid even if it's just wildlings they have to worry about. I'd say, I agree with his decisions, but not the execution: he's arrogant, ignorant and careless.

The problem I think actually lies with Gared. He knows there's something wrong, and from what he says, he also knows what it is, but he's unable to articulate what he knows in a way that is comprehensible.

Yes, that ties into what I was trying to say about Will and especially Gared: much their knowledge is instinctive, subconcious, and they're OK with that. Based on the experience they accumulated they know something is wrong, but they don't feel the need to put the pieces together. I wonder how many similar events went unreported, or even undiscovered because of that...

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