Old Gods, cold gods and Starks: a Heretic re-read

[nanother]

About riding the direwolf, there wasn't a theory :blushing: it just popped in my mind as a logical explanation why both of them happened to be at the same place at the same time, both coming from the Wall...I can't really imagine anyone wanting to ride a direwolf unless forced to...well, maybe he was forced to...maybe that's why he was so freaked out :dunno:

I think the first few chapters mostly serve to give an overall idea and set up the story and it's not necessarily supposed to make sense...I certainly didn't notice anything out of place the first time around. However, now it seems too much of a coincidence. So I'll just assume that Coldhands or someone else put him on the direwolf, sent the both of them through the Black Gate and they only got separated during the run-in with the stag...a bit silly, but what can I do :dunno:

[nanother]

Bran I (+ Cat I), part II

The direwolf:

As Black Crow mentioned, the scene of finding her and the pups is supposedly the seed the story grew from. So yes, killed by the stag, being born with the dead, and Jon's pup opening his eyes first, and his weirwood coloring is probably extremely significant...

Killed by the stag:

All the men, except Ned, think it's a sign. I'm inclined to agree – we don't know the full extent of the Old Gods' power yet, but I bet it was orchestrated by them somehow. Along with Gared being there (even if he didn't ride the direwolf). But then, had Ned taken it as such, would he have done anything different? And would it have mattered? In a later chapter of hers, Cat fears refusing King Robert and thinks of the dead direwolf - alas, as with other signs and prophecies, trying to interpret them without the benefit of the hindsight we readers have, doesn't do any good.

Born with the dead:

Men think it's ill luck – well, the Stark kids sure don't have it easy afterwards...but what to make of it? I think the direwolf being female is more of a necessity than a metaphor for the Stark kids' actual mothers. My feeling is that it's a two-fold symbol for House Stark: it was already dead or dying in a way, having forgotten some of its core traditions, when the kids were born*. And, of course their encounter with the Stag eventually led to physical death and ruin. Although, technically the Lion was more at fault, not to mention the Mockingbird. But then a wolf that choked on a mockingbird is not quite so dramatic.

Anyway, I wonder if the 'prophecy' is considered fulfilled with the death of Ned and/or the loss of Winterfell: the Stag is still around and planning to re-take Winterfell.

* that reminds me of the theory that some important knowledge got lost with Rickard and Brandon dying so unexpectedly

The pups:

Robb gets t pick a pup for himself - the one he's holding presumably Grey Wind. Jon picks one for Bran - yet, Bran's pup seems immediately 'tuned' to him:

“No matter,” said Hullen. “They be dead soon enough too.”

Bran gave a wordless cry of dismay.

“The sooner the better,” Theon Greyjoy agreed. He drew his sword. “Give the beast here, Bran.”

The little thing squirmed against him, as if it heard and understood. “No!” Bran cried out fiercely. “It’s mine.”

And finally, Jon's pup is able to make himself heard - to Jon only. Sounds to me like their warg connection is already in place.

Not sure what I'm getting at with that, I guess it's kind of a chicken-egg situation: did the kids pick the pups or the pups the kids?

Ghost:

He's special in more than one way. Driven away and the first to open his eyes - is this just an echo of Jon's bastard status (we're told bastards grow up faster), or is there something more to it?

Albino, with the colors of the weirwoods - Bran gets to be the greenseer, yet Jon has the weirwood pup. And a good thing, that, he's there to remind Jon of his roots when tempted by Stan/Mel.

And he makes no sound. Will he ever?

[redriver]

About riding the direwolf, there wasn't a theory :blushing: it just popped in my mind as a logical explanation why both of them happened to be at the same place at the same time, both coming from the Wall...I can't really imagine anyone wanting to ride a direwolf unless forced to...well, maybe he was forced to...maybe that's why he was so freaked out :dunno:

I think the first few chapters mostly serve to give an overall idea and set up the story and it's not necessarily supposed to make sense...I certainly didn't notice anything out of place the first time around. However, now it seems too much of a coincidence. So I'll just assume that Coldhands or someone else put him on the direwolf, sent the both of them through the Black Gate and they only got separated during the run-in with the stag...a bit silly, but what can I do :dunno:

I would assume that the arrival of Gared and the mother direwolf is unconnected.The direwolf is half rotted and maggot afflicted.It takes a wee bit of time for those guys to get their act together.

Yes,hands up I admit, I have read some Patricia Cornwell.

[nanother]

I would assume that the arrival of Gared and the mother direwolf is unconnected.The direwolf is half rotted and maggot afflicted.It takes a wee bit of time for those guys to get their act together.

Yes,hands up I admit, I have read some Patricia Cornwell.

I don't think she could have died too long ago. For one, the pups were still alive. Also, she wasn't quite crawling with maggots, it was only her eyes:

Half-buried in bloodstained snow, a huge dark shape slumped in death. Ice had formed in its

shaggy grey fur, and the faint smell of corruption clung to it like a woman’s perfume. Bran glimpsed

blind eyes crawling with maggots, a wide mouth full of yellowed teeth. But it was the size of it that

made him gasp. It was bigger than his pony, twice the size of the largest hound in his father’s kennel.

...

“It is a sign,” Jory said.

Father frowned. “This is only a dead animal, Jory,” he said. Yet he seemed troubled. Snow

crunched under his boots as he moved around the body. “Do we know what killed her?”

“There’s something in the throat,” Robb told him, proud to have found the answer before his

father even asked. “There, just under the jaw...

His father knelt and groped under the beast’s head with his hand. He gave a yank and held it up for all to see. A foot of shattered antler, tines snapped off, all wet with blood.

...oops, the eyes :excl: That seems important.

Also, as far as the decaying process goes, it seems to me that it should have been too cold for it to start to rot in the first place. So another thing that doesn't quite make sense :unsure: Maybe she had a would that festered?

[Melifeather]

Ned beheaded Gared at the holdfast because deserters are dangerous men. They know their lives are forfeit, so Ned may think he's too dangerous to bring to Winterfell.

It bothers me that no one noticed the dead and decaying direwolf until on the way back. It isn't mentioned that they took a different route back. I think the old gods (the Children greenseers) not the White Walkers...if Tyryan's theory of the Children representing "decay" is true....were responsible.

[Little Bird of Varys]

I want to give my opinions later on. Regardless of me English.

I like the political side of the books. But my main interest is to study about the mysteries of ancient powers.

I would like to speak not only of Stark, but many other characters that look like they were touched by the Old Gods and their dreams. Jaime was one.That dream has profoundly changed his personality and made him go to save Brienne.

Below is a my post involving the use of bones and Glamor.

I see that almost everyone is associating the use of bones and hair in just spells glamor. The more I read and reread, the more I realize the strong connection that exists between the Old Gods and bones and blood. We see several bones in the cave of BR. And so Melissande says, the bones remember.

I believe that the bones then have great power saving Memories and personal characteristics. So are great for glamor, but in no way limited to that. I see the bones with a utility like the Weirwoods. We know that blood is used in more powerful spells. The supposed bones of Nagga are weirwoods dead to me. All believe they are bones. So I think there is a connection between bone and blood with Weirwoods, and perhaps these are compenentes for Weirwoods.

Magic of Others = Blood, ice, water and wind?? Dreams? Darkness?

Magic R'hllor = Blood, fire, wind, shadows and steel??

Magic of the Old Gods = Blood, bones, dreams, wind, water, heat, cold, dirt (

ground), bronze and iron?? And what else? Darkness? LIVING CREATURES?

I believe that the Old Gods are a point of equilibrium. But ... if the Old Gods actually absorb the knowledge and powers of other "gods"?

[Black Crow]

We have discussed some of this before, but as its not directly relevant to the re-read project can I suggest you take yourself over to the main Heresy thread on the Dance with Dragons sub-Forum, where you'll find yourself in good company.

[Little Wing]

<snip>

Redstark, here's a link to the current Heresy thread - be sure to share this post there as well.

Also, as far as the decaying process goes, it seems to me that it should have been too cold for it to start to rot in the first place. So another thing that doesn't quite make sense

Well, it wasn't really that cold... summer snows are mentioned, but I don't think it means it was exactly cold.

If it was somehow important for the pups to be born from a dying mother, it very well could have been a staged scene and not a chance encounter with a stag... but I dunno, seems convoluted to me... I'm officially sticking to the she-wolf hunting a stag that put up a good fight. I think it's one of those things we'll never know... especially as that scene just came to GRRM and that's where it all started... (my personal theory is Bran warged GRRM from the awesome ideas realm :cool4: )

[nanother]

@ Lady Olenna

I'm glad this re-read is proving to be a good idea (it was Little Wing who brought it up first, though). I know what you mean abut the Heresy threads :laugh:

I also share your sentiments about Gared's death, it just sooo unfair - but then, if I think of it, he had probably as fair a trial as anyone in Westeros can expect, and with the knowledge he had, he couldn't be allowed to live :(

I'm not sure of the practicalties of riding a direwolf, but there was a heretical thought discussed some time ago that the Others/Sidhe encountered by Ser Waymar were in fact convoying the direwolf, and that Gared didn't get away but was spared in return for taking the direwolf through the Black Gate under the Nightfort and on to Winterfell, hence his being captured near and just after it being killed.

There is an interesting question arises from this, which we can discuss later when Nanother finishes his notes - if the direwolf was being sent to deliver the pups to the Stark kids, who killed it and why?

I didn't know there was such a theory around! That would put the Old Gods/CotF very firmly in the same camp as the Others, though. But yes, in any case, assuming (as I do) that the Gared-direwolf-stag combo results from the meddling of supernatural forces, the next question is which forces they were and what their purpose was.

...

ETA: Crackpot alert: Do the pups/humans born from a dying mother represent/will bring balance? It's morbid, but one being coming to life while the other passes on seems like a perfect (though morbid) balance.

Hmm, morbid indeed, but I like it. There's also Mance's son, I wonder what's in store for him...

It bothers me that no one noticed the dead and decaying direwolf until on the way back. It isn't mentioned that they took a different route back. I think the old gods (the Children greenseers) not the White Walkers...if Tyryan's theory of the Children representing "decay" is true....were responsible.

It used to bother me as well, but it's easy to explain compared to the other 'coincidences': she was some way off the road, half buried in snow, and they had a beheading to attend so probably were too preoccupied to notice - on the way home they were much more relaxed and adventurous.

...

I see that almost everyone is associating the use of bones and hair in just spells glamor. The more I read and reread, the more I realize the strong connection that exists between the Old Gods and bones and blood. We see several bones in the cave of BR. And so Melissande says, the bones remember.

...

As others suggested, most of your post is better suited for the main Heresy thread - but I have to say, putting it this way does help to put the phrase 'the trees remember' in a new light. Also, could there be more to the saying 'the North remembers', than just northerners remembering?

...

I'm officially sticking to the she-wolf hunting a stag that put up a good fight.

Well, that's probably how it physically happened, only the stag might have had some divine aid as well :devil:

I'm not too sure about the cold - FWIW she was half buried in snow and had frost in her fur...

[Little Wing]

Well, that's probably how it physically happened, only the stag might have had some divine aid as well

The stag was warged!? :o :eek:

ETA: As for Ned sentencing Gared - however we as readers feel for Gared, if Ned had let him go on account of him being out of his mind, that would be regarded as a precedent and would then serve to set free all manner of people that may deserve to be sentenced. I for one don't hold it against Ned - he was doing his duty, although he did not relish it. If he made an exception to the rule every mother or relative of a criminal/deserter would soon ask why their son, brother or whatever can't be spared if he spared Gared... Consistency. It matters.

[nanother]

The stag was warged!? :o :eek:

Dunno, he might have had a green dream with the spirit of the Last Hero giving him combat advice :leaving:

[Black Crow]

I think the question to ask about the stag is whether it killed the direwolf to prevent it overshooting its target, ie; Winterfell, or did it kill the direwolf in an attempt to frustrate the delivery. After all the finding of the direwolf was more than a little bit random and not to be relied on.

[Melifeather]

I have further thoughts regarding the life cycle and the similarity with the seasons. I believe I had made a mistake in the order, as winter should not be equated with death, because it is a time of rest. At first I agreed with Tyryan that the Children were part of the decaying Autumn cycle, but I'm beginning to have doubts. If they believe themselves to be the old gods, then they're the self-ascribed protectors of the cycle of life.

The old gods tried to send a message to the unbelieving Lord Ned Stark. He seems a pious man, but in Catelyn I POV she's thinking how she loves this man, "who puts no faith in signs." Ned sees the symbolism laying in the snow before him, but he refuses to believe. The dead mother direwolf represents decay and Autumn, but the pups skipped over winter and were born like Spring. Likewise, all the people of Westeros live and die (fire/summer), but if they're in the crypts, so they decay in their graves (autumn)? Then maybe they also skip the winter rest with their souls trapped in their graves?

Farmers know that winter is an important season for successful crops. It's a time of rest. While the fields lay in farrow, the bacteria and micro/macro organisms that are necessary for proper seed germination are multiplying. Winter is the staging area for rebirth of the first season, Spring. Death is a natural part of life and belongs with the second season, the "fire" stage (summer) since fire "consumes". The decaying "earth" period comes next in the autumn part of the cycle, and lastly, the long winter's rest before the cycle repeats itself.

We're reminded many times that ice "preserves", and ice has preserved the unnatural White Walkers, as I now believe that they are the product of the "hammer" that the Children created in their desperate attempt to preserve themselves thinking it was necessary in order for them to preserve the natural cycle of life. The Wall is responsible for the extended, preserving winters and needs to be dismantled in order to destroy the White Walkers.

In the Prologue, we are witness to Waymar's death by White Walkers, which i believe was also the likely fate of the Last Hero. In old Nan's tale it's stated that when the Last Hero went to use his sword, it broke. Why would he need to use his sword unless he was being attacked? Who would attack him other than White Walkers?

In Bran I, Ned is explaining to Bran why he had to be the one to carry out justice. He says its important for the person that hears the accused's words to decide their fate, and to also be the one to carry out the execution. For if you cannot do all three things yourself, perhaps the accused doesn't deserve to die. It is too easy to simply judge someone and condemn them if you don't also have to be the one to take their life. I think this is an important lesson that we needed to hear, because its an echo of what also happened to the Last Hero.

I think, just like Waymar was seeking the wildlings, the Last Hero was seeking the Children. Both times they were executed without trial. I think in the Last Hero's case the Children felt regret, specifically because they knew he was trying to find them, and that they hadn't heard his words before allowing his execution. They realized that it was wrong to allow the White Walkers to kill him. It was akin to King Robert using Payne to do his dirty work.

What I'm wondering now is, what needs to be done to correct the cycle of life? The White Walkers need to be destroyed. I am convinced of that. They are an unnatural and magical creation. But so are the magical fire creations. This includes Lady Stoneheart, dragons, and Melisandre herself. And maybe even magic needs to be destroyed? Certainly the Wall needs to come down as it probably can only stand because of magic. Ironically, the White Walkers need to be allowed past the Wall before they can be eliminated.

The dragons will be needed as weapons to kill White Walkers, wights, and maybe even help bring down the Wall. Will horns be needed to bring it down or could dragon flame melt it? A deluge of water could help melt White Walkers, but where would be a safe place for humans to stay clear of the flooding?

The bittersweet part includes realizing that the dragons will have to be destroyed in the end as well as magic, and possibly even the Children. There are only two people who could possibly know how to kill dragons....either Tyrion or Sam. There is also a line that Maester Luwin says, that it is believed that even gods die. Once magic is destroyed, and seasons and the cycle of life rebalanced and restored, there will be no more need for the Children.

[Lady Olenna]

I know this isn't a television comparison thread, but I just have to make the comment:

I was SO very disappointed that the show did not adequately cover the exchange between the WW's and Royce. I felt cheated as that intro scenario is among my favorites. I understand the logistics would have been formidable but its really the only glimpse of WW culture we get.

Seems so silly among the profound insights you guys have, but it nags at me still.

Regarding the finding of the pups: I'm certain it's already been discussed but I've often wondered how many of the Starks are wargs. I would love to know if Benjen is, should he still be alive or reanimated as it were. And if there are wargs in the south? Is it only an aspect of the North?

[Neumond]

I just got the feeling, that they thought a sweet zombie girl would be more interesting for the audition... Or they wanted to use the Other appearance as cliffhanger for the third season from the start. Who knows.

By the way, I love this thread so far.

I also love the image of the WW sentencing the NW-Rangers to death during the first chapter. And Ned doing the same in this one.

(Sorry for my english, I´m still learning... don`t be shy to correct me)

[nanother]

...

Regarding the finding of the pups: I'm certain it's already been discussed but I've often wondered how many of the Starks are wargs. I would love to know if Benjen is, should he still be alive or reanimated as it were. And if there are wargs in the south? Is it only an aspect of the North?

So far it makes sense t assume it's a trait appearing among the descendants of the First Men. Possibly part of the Pact, or at least gained from the Children in some way. The only known (human) skinchangers are wildlings, Starks and a Blackwood (shouthrn family, but worshipping the Old Gds), right? I wonder about the Targaryens' connections with their dragons, though.

[Melifeather]

I have a theory about the Starks and their renewed ability to warg and it involves having the trueborn blood of Starks being recently re-established at the time of the Dunk and Egg stories when they are going north to meet Lord Beron Stark. If you want to read the whole theory, you may do so here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/77369-the-trueborn-story-about-how-the-nights-king-was-overthrown-and-winterfell-stolen-by-a-bastard/#entry3850438

[nanother]

@ Feather Crystal

I think there are more than one 'cycles of life'. The 'material' cycle is: life-death-decay(physical)-'rebirth', where death and rebirth are events rather than extended states, relatively quick transitions from living to inanimate and back, and life itself has stages of growth, balance and decline, which don't have the sort of strict boundaries life and death do (outside ASoIaF anyway). Your (and Tyryan's?) version of cycle seems to be calling the 'growth' stage 'Rebirth', the 'balance' stage 'Life', the 'decline' stage 'Decay' and the rest of it 'Death'. So this way, you have decay and Decay, causing confusion.

I don't think Death was skipped here, the direwolf is dead as well as decaying. However, your post reminds me of my earlier idea: could the decay have start before she died? Could she have a festered wound?

I think it has to be significant that it's her eyes that are decaying. If the direwolf is a symbol for House Stark, dead perhaps even before the pups were born, what do the 'blind eyes crawling with maggots' stand for?

Possibly, a reference to not using their third eyes? Or their inability to see something?

[Melifeather]

I guess I don't see the cycle the same way as you. I think it's the same as the seasons. Spring=rebirth (water), Summer=life & death (fire & ice), Autumn=decay (earth), Winter=rest (air?) Like I had stated above, death belongs in the same season and cycle as summer/fire since fire consumes. Ice is the representation of death.

The maggot in the eyes is Ned's refusal to see the truth.

[nanother]

Yeh, sorry, I wasn't paying proper attention. Anyhow, I see you posted this in Heresy as well, so I'll reply there after thinking it through.

For now, I'll only say that in this scene all seasons are present in a way: it's the end of summer, one could argue that the direwolf itself represents winter, and the decay for autumn and birth of pups for spring feels right.

Speaking of that, it's hard to know with the messed up seasons of Westeros, but AFAIK wolf pups are normally born in the spring, so these ones being born at the end of summer seems to be another unusual aspect of this scene.

The maggot in the eyes is Ned's refusal to see the truth.

Well, yes, but what's the truth he's refusing to see? And is it only Ned, or does the problem go deeper?