Varamyr says something interesting. (SPOILERS)

[ImplicationsUnpleasant]

Talking about Jon's stabbing (as ladyofslytherin so kindly described), I want to bring up a point I've made before:

At this point Jon is a highly unreliable narrator, you're not likely to think straight if you're being stabbed, and as ladyofslytherin pointed out, the 4th knife could have been imagined. So we're reading what Jon is expecting to happen and what we expect to happening not what actually is happening.

And there's always some slight crackpotty chance that Jon is having a vision that feels real (Melisandre is projecting it to him).

If it turns out to be some kind of vision, that would be cheap.

Now that we mention the posibility of a vision, what if, the last book ends with grrm waking up, and we realize the whole story was a dream or vision he was having? :eek:

[Lady Green]

If it turns out to be some kind of vision, that would be cheap.

Now that we mention the posibility of a vision, what if, the last book ends with grrm waking up, and we realize the whole story was a dream or vision he was having? :eek:

Either of these come to pass I will through the book at the wall. Well I'll have to buy the book first cause I don't want to break my kindle but still. (Yes I am aware I suggested one of them, still don't want it to be true).

[Free Northman]

Varamyr is probably correct that a warg on his own doesn't have the power to return to his body from a second life.

But the most powerful form of magic in Westeros is blood magic, and the entire theme of "life to pay for life" and "a King's blood to raise a Dragon" has been emphasized so repeatedly that it HAS to come into play now.

Hence, because his is the song of Ice and Fire, Jon's body may be healed by Mellisandre's magic, but that will only turn him into another Drogo - a comatose automaton.

To return his SPIRIT to his body, will require Bran's magic, through the sacrifice of King's Blood. Thus the magic of the Old Gods will grab Jon's spirit from Ghost and return it to his body.

My big fear is that the final price that will be required for this will be the sacrifice of Ghost's life. Martin is cruel enough to do this. Personally, I would hold it against the books for the rest of the series, if it transpires this way.

But it may well turn out to be the case.

[Gi_Varotti]

I like this better. My buddy and I have discussed this at great length. He likes to quiz me on what I would find acceptable. I don't want Jon to be reanimate, I want him alive. I want his wounds to heal and he be alive. I don't want an UnJon with gaping wounds and such.

We were quite drunk at this point, but my friend asked if I would accept Jon dead and body burnt, but somehow he comes back, like some sort of god. I admitted drunk I would accept it more than an Undead or totally dead Jon, but my whole perspective on the books would change.

Same here. Alive Jon as 1st choice, a burnt Jon as 2nd, dead Jon as 3rd. I'd rather see him dead than zombified.

That's why I have hopes that he's in a coma while he has his wounds healed.

Varamyr is probably correct that a warg on his own doesn't have the power to return to his body from a second life.

But the most powerful form of magic in Westeros is blood magic, and the entire theme of "life to pay for life" and "a King's blood to raise a Dragon" has been emphasized so repeatedly that it HAS to come into play now.

Hence, because his is the song of Ice and Fire, Jon's body may be healed by Mellisandre's magic, but that will only turn him into another Drogo - a comatose automaton.

To return his SPIRIT to his body, will require Bran's magic, through the sacrifice of King's Blood. Thus the magic of the Old Gods will grab Jon's spirit from Ghost and return it to his body.

My big fear is that the final price that will be required for this will be the sacrifice of Ghost's life. Martin is cruel enough to do this. Personally, I would hold it against the books for the rest of the series, if it transpires this way.

But it may well turn out to be the case.

Apple Martini wrote a good theory about Jon being a dragon and that Theon's sacrifice would play the part of the 'life to pay for life'. We know from his Winds' POV that Asha suggested to Stannis to give Theon's life to the Starks' Gods instead of R'hollor (and Theon is a king). Jon is so attached to the North and to the Old Gods that I can't see him coming back via a fire sacrifice (it may be just me but it doesn't feel right) but only from ice.

But if Theon's sacrifice turns out to be the event that brings Jon back, I don't know when it should happen.

I think Jon's condition is similar to Bran's when he was thrown out of the window. Maybe he's just in a coma and warging into Ghost will serve him to find out the truth about his parents (in a crackpot, I think he'll travel to the cave and meet Bran and BR).

I suffered enough when Lady and Grey Wind died (I even cried, silly me) but Ghost!? I can't even imagine it, it'd be a living hell. I'm not the one who's writing the books but I really hope that Martin doesn't kill him off.

[Santa]

I do think GRRM could kill Jon despite him having still stuff to do.

Maybe it is too long ago for you all to remember, but Ned had a lot of story left to do too.

I was conviced he would be sent to the Wall and speak with Jon.

He had to finish that dream of the ToJ. I thought it would be another dream where we would find out more.

He had to talk to Stannis.

He had to confront Littlefinger.

And I was sure he would fight Jaime in a Duel and he would have to defend Kings Landing and the Lions would be the actual attackers.

He basicly died and got no justice, no revenge, no closure of anything.

[protar]

I do think GRRM could kill Jon despite him having still stuff to do.

Maybe it is too long ago for you all to remember, but Ned had a lot of story left to do too.

I was conviced he would be sent to the Wall and speak with Jon.

He had to finish that dream of the ToJ. I thought it would be another dream where we would find out more.

He had to talk to Stannis.

He had to confront Littlefinger.

And I was sure he would fight Jaime in a Duel and he would have to defend Kings Landing and the Lions would be the actual attackers.

He basicly died and got no justice, no revenge, no closure of anything.

Those things could have transpired. But looking back, Ned's death came at the right time. It set off the WOTFK for instance. There was no central mystery revolving around Ned was there now?

[Silent Sparrow]

Those things could have transpired. But looking back, Ned's death came at the right time. It set off the WOTFK for instance. There was no central mystery revolving around Ned was there now?

Well, the big secret Ned was keeping DOES revolve around him in the case- unlikely as I find it- that we're wrong about R+L=J.

[protar]

Well, the big secret Ned was keeping DOES revolve around him in the case- unlikely as I find it- that we're wrong about R+L=J.

True, but even with Ned's death the secret continues with Jon. He still doesn't know who his parents are. If Jon dies, then it doesn't mean anything.

[Silent Sparrow]

True, but even with Ned's death the secret continues with Jon. He still doesn't know who his parents are. If Jon dies, then it doesn't mean anything.

That makes sense only under the assumption that R+L=J is the secret that we're talking about. If we're wrong, then Ned's secret could be anything and it could have simply died with him and be there just to keep us distracted from other events.

[protar]

That makes sense only under the assumption that R+L=J is the secret that we're talking about. If we're wrong, then Ned's secret could be anything and it could have simply died with him and be there just to keep us distracted from other events.

My bad, I thought you meant Jon's parentage, but you're referring to the "promise me Ned" obviously. On that matter, I pretty much take it as a fact that R+L=J is true at this point. Seems silly to think otherwise.

But even if it isn't true, Howland Reed could still be privy to the details of Lyanna's promise.

So in conclusion: Jon aint dead.

[Silent Sparrow]

So in conclusion: Jon aint dead.

I hope he isn't.

[Lady Green]

That makes sense only under the assumption that R+L=J is the secret that we're talking about. If we're wrong, then Ned's secret could be anything and it could have simply died with him and be there just to keep us distracted from other events.

And then GRRM will sit there laughing at how he trolled us all.

[The King of the Night]

In Jon's second to last chapter he has a dream where he is wearing black ice armor and and wielding a red flaming sword... how i missed it the first time i read through i have no idea but aside from the obvious Azor Ahai implications, it could mean when he comes back he would be more like cold hands than dondarion. I think this would be more beneficial if he is Azor Ahai because when Cold Hands saves Bran he asks the Three Eyed Crow if he will be killed by the whites and his response is along the lines of "no they killed him a long time ago". If Jon comes back impervious to cold and whites he would be invincible against them.

[Lady Green]

If Jon comes back like coldhands I will be massively peeved.

Jon can't come back as anything white like or he's likely to get burned/hacked to pieces by his brothers and the wildings, the black ice armor could just be symbolic of the Wall itself which is Jon's armor against the whites.