Theories you simply don't believe

[King Daemon Blackfyre]

I don't believe Dany will defeat the Dornishmen and conquer Dorne in the upcoming Second Dance of Dragons. Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken. The Martells will probably ally with Faegon, whom Dany will probably defeat, but she won't beat the Martells in Dorne.

I don't believe Dany will be allied to the Starks when she reaches Westeros. In contrast, I believe they will come into conflict.

I don't believe the dragons are the superweapon that defeats the Others. In contrast, I think they are two sides of the same coin - dangerous and destructive extremes of nature that must both be destroyed to restore balance to the world.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

But Martin's answering the question "Why did they choose to fight?" and not "Why were they there?" And his answer clearly puts him in mind of orders, not vows.

I suppose. I just don't think that the orders of a dead prince would trump the welfare of the (allegedly) living king. At that point they stop being Kingsguard and start being beholden to Rhaegar specifically. Their words to Ned suggest that they believe they're acting in the capacity of being Kingsguard, in which case, at least one of them should be with Viserys or en route to him, if he's the king.

And reading the quote, I think place/location (as in why they were there) is implied in the question as much as action (as in the fighting).

[Zupoleon]

- I don't believe that Lyanna had twins, or triplets for that matter.

[UnbentFury]

That Jaime and Cersei are secret Targs, This is the most bullshit theory I have heard here. As well as Tyrion being a Targ.

1. You don't inherit some kind of 'incest gene'.

2. It's fucking called a figure of speech.

[Porcelain Steel]

I don't believe that a literal dragon woke up and flew out of WF.

I don't believe that Arya is Jon's Nissa.

And more than anything, I don't believe that Tyrion could be anyone but Tywin's son.

[Ran]

At that point they stop being Kingsguard and start being beholden to Rhaegar specifically.

They're not beholden to Rhaegar, they're beholden to their vows, as Martin makes very clear when answering the question.

It may seem strange and even unpalatable to think that they'd be motivated to follow orders from a dead man rather than going to protect the rest of the family if there's really no heir at the Tower of Joy, because the mindset is foreign to us, but that's kind of the whole point: the whole thing is alien to us, and the mores of Westeros and the norms of chivalric conduct and the importance of vows and oaths are something we don't really have.

I am not arguing that Rhaegar's son was not at the Tower of Joy (though, in fact, I don't believe he was; he was at Starfall, I'm pretty sure, after his mother proved too ill, could not be moved, and there was fear that the boy would be infected with her illness), but merely that I don't believe any such thing is required to explain their presence. They had orders, they were following them as best they knew how.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

They're not beholden to Rhaegar, they're beholden to their vows, as Martin makes very clear when answering the question.

It may seem strange and even unpalatable to think that they'd be motivated to follow orders from a dead man rather than going to protect the rest of the family if there's really no heir at the Tower of Joy, because the mindset is foreign to us, but that's kind of the whole point: the whole thing is alien to us, and the mores of Westeros and the norms of chivalric conduct and the importance of vows and oaths are something we don't really have.

I am not arguing that Rhaegar's son was not at the Tower of Joy (though, in fact, I don't believe he was; he was at Starfall, I'm pretty sure, after his mother proved too ill, could not be moved, and there was fear that the boy would be infected with her illness), but merely that I don't believe any such thing is required to explain their presence. They had orders, they were following them as best they knew how.

Agree to disagree, I guess.

[Lion of Judah]

99.999% of the stuff you read on these boards I don't believe. Ok maybe that's an exaggeration, but a lot of it I don't buy into. Anyone with a theory about someone being a Targ, Aerys fathering Jamie and Cersei. Littlefinger fathering Sansa or Arya. This person is Ashara Dayne or Ned raped Lyanna.

[Zupoleon]

Yeah I can't see how 3 KG would stay at the ToJ on orders, whilst their King (depending on what one believes) is either heading across the Narrow Sea, or chilling in Starfall. At least one would have had to go to their King, IMO...

[mcb]

Nedbert. Even if I invented it. Furthermore: Young Griff Targaryen, Tyrion Targaryen, Lemore Dayne, Jaqen Forel. Also, Higgs' boson still sounds just fishy.

[Ran]

Yeah I can't see how 3 KG would stay at the ToJ on orders, whilst their King (depending on what one believes) is either heading across the Narrow Sea, or chilling in Starfall. At least one would have had to go to their King, IMO...

See the direct quote from Martin that pretty clearly says they were there because of orders.

I imagine they stayed at the Tower of Joy because the orders encompassed Lyanna's safety, and also their child's... and they kind of basically hoped to prevent anyone from learning from Lyanna where the child was after he was removed to Starfall, while being bound by duty and honor not to deal with that by killing her or what have you. That's my take on what was going on.

But either way, Martin just says, "Orders" when asked why they stayed there to fight

Now, I could certainly buy if you wanted Rhaegar's orders to be specific enough to be, "If my son is born and things go so badly that he is now rightful king, you must X, Y, Z; otherwise, A, B, C..."

That'd adhere to what Martin said and keep the king thing in there. But Martin's still saying, "They had orders, and the Kingsguard does what it's ordered to do," and that's about it. Obviously, they're human, there's room for faltering, for breaking a command in search of some greater fulfillment of their vows, what have you. They're not robots. But Martin explains why they were there and fought, and it's not "They had vows", it's not, "They wanted to", it's "They had orders."

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

But either way, Martin just says, "Orders" when asked why they stayed there to fight

Now, I could certainly buy if you wanted Rhaegar's orders to be specific enough to be, "If my son is born and things go so badly that he is now rightful king, you must X, Y, Z; otherwise, A, B, C..."

That'd adhere to what Martin said and keep the king thing in there. But Martin's still saying, "They had orders, and the Kingsguard does what it's ordered to do," and that's about it. Obviously, they're human, there's room for faltering, for breaking a command in search of some greater fulfillment of their vows, what have you. They're not robots. But Martin explains why they were there and fought, and it's not "They had vows", it's not, "They wanted to", it's "They had orders."

It is interesting, though, that GRRM uses the word "orders" in the quote but in the actual book, the word "vow," as in, "we swore a vow," is what's used. Just thinking out loud. ;)

[Hodor Frey]

I no longer believe any of the events depicted in these books ever happened.

[Kingdoms'Rights]

I dont believe that the series will end before the year 2020.

[Belandra Waters]

See the direct quote from Martin that pretty clearly says they were there because of orders.

I imagine they stayed at the Tower of Joy because the orders encompassed Lyanna's safety, and also their child's... and they kind of basically hoped to prevent anyone from learning from Lyanna where the child was after he was removed to Starfall, while being bound by duty and honor not to deal with that by killing her or what have you. That's my take on what was going on.

But either way, Martin just says, "Orders" when asked why they stayed there to fight

Now, I could certainly buy if you wanted Rhaegar's orders to be specific enough to be, "If my son is born and things go so badly that he is now rightful king, you must X, Y, Z; otherwise, A, B, C..."

That'd adhere to what Martin said and keep the king thing in there. But Martin's still saying, "They had orders, and the Kingsguard does what it's ordered to do," and that's about it. Obviously, they're human, there's room for faltering, for breaking a command in search of some greater fulfillment of their vows, what have you. They're not robots. But Martin explains why they were there and fought, and it's not "They had vows", it's not, "They wanted to", it's "They had orders."

I can't think of any other posting that's answered so many of my questions yet challenged so many of my beliefs at the same time Thank you, Ran!

[The Red Hand]

I don't believe 99% of whats posted on this thread. Maybe I'm just gullible.

A+J=T, FTW!!!

[Ned's Epic Beard]

I refuse to believe in R+L=J. Also I hate any secret targ theories.

[LeoSuperstar]

I refuse to believe in R+L=J. Also I hate any secret targ theories.

Just out of curiosity, who do you think Jon parents are?

[mcb]

That'd adhere to what Martin said and keep the king thing in there. But Martin's still saying, "They had orders, and the Kingsguard does what it's ordered to do," and that's about it. Obviously, they're human, there's room for faltering, for breaking a command in search of some greater fulfillment of their vows, what have you. They're not robots. But Martin explains why they were there and fought, and it's not "They had vows", it's not, "They wanted to", it's "They had orders."

Somehow I don't believe that, had Rhaegar ordered them to make a lot of apricot jam ("because I love it, that's why!"), they'd keep making it even after his death, simply ignoring the entire Targaryen dynasty.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

I don't believe that Gerold Dayne is other person than Gerold Dayne

I don't believe Varys being a Blackfyre

I don't believe that Sandor Cleagane's story is over

I don't believe Sansa is the New Queen who will overthrown Cersei

I don't believe the Jon is dead theory