Theories you simply don't believe

[Where Boars Glow]

1) No Lannisters are targs

2) There is NO romantic connections between Sansa and Sandor

3) No one was warging any cats in KL

[Ned's Epic Beard]

Just out of curiosity, who do you think Jon parents are?

Ned as his biological father. Not sure about mother.

[ladyofslytherin]

People are within their right to disblieve R+L=J, just as I'm in my right to use that judgment against them when it comes to evaluating the merits of their other arguments. :)

:cheers:

Although, while I also firmly believe R+L=J, I reserve the right to believe that GRRM will either:

1) Never actually confirm it and just leave us all haggling over the clues he's left; or

2) Screw with all of our minds, write something completely different, and watch us all destroy each other fighting over it.

I'm suspicious of him doing the second option with the prophecies, too, not just Jon's parentage.

[Winter's Prince]

Aegon being fake I believe. I do not believe Aerys fathered Tywin's kids, or that Syrio is a FM and a few other things I don't believe either

[Zupoleon]

See the direct quote from Martin that pretty clearly says they were there because of orders.

I imagine they stayed at the Tower of Joy because the orders encompassed Lyanna's safety, and also their child's... and they kind of basically hoped to prevent anyone from learning from Lyanna where the child was after he was removed to Starfall, while being bound by duty and honor not to deal with that by killing her or what have you. That's my take on what was going on.

But either way, Martin just says, "Orders" when asked why they stayed there to fight

Now, I could certainly buy if you wanted Rhaegar's orders to be specific enough to be, "If my son is born and things go so badly that he is now rightful king, you must X, Y, Z; otherwise, A, B, C..."

That'd adhere to what Martin said and keep the king thing in there. But Martin's still saying, "They had orders, and the Kingsguard does what it's ordered to do," and that's about it. Obviously, they're human, there's room for faltering, for breaking a command in search of some greater fulfillment of their vows, what have you. They're not robots. But Martin explains why they were there and fought, and it's not "They had vows", it's not, "They wanted to", it's "They had orders."

I'd add that in the case of the KG, orders and vows do not have to be mutually exclusive. That is to say, while they may have been initially acting on orders given by Rhaegar, through a series of unpredictable events they were also fulfilling their main KG vow of protecting their King. Just saying it doesn't have to be an either / or scenario...

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

ah, I forgot to say that I don't believe the theories about Tyrion, Jaime or Cersei being Aerys II children

[Ran]

Somehow I don't believe that, had Rhaegar ordered them to make a lot of apricot jam ("because I love it, that's why!"), they'd keep making it even after his death, simply ignoring the entire Targaryen dynasty.

I find it hard to believe, as well, which is why I think it's obvious that whatever orders Rhaegar gave, they were not of a ridiculous nature. But it goes without saying that Martin was thinking that the orders they tend to receive aren't ridiculous.

Like, "Protect my wife," that's not ridiculous. "Protect my son by my lover," that's not ridiculous. And so on.

[deerhunter]

I don't buy into Bran's story line bringing him into any kind of evil plot.

[LeoSuperstar]

Ned as his biological father. Not sure about mother.

Oh, ok...

[redviper9]

I don't believe that any of the Lannister siblings is actuallly Mad Aerys's child.

I don't believe in Jojen-paste.

I don't believe that Gerold Dayne is anyone other than Gerold Dayne.

I don't believe that Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne.

I don't believe that Young Griff is Aegon Targaryen.

ETA: I find the "Oberyn poisoned Tywin" theory intriguing, but, like Apple Martini said, since it's unlikely to ever be proven, I don't have any strong feelings about it.

Also, I don't believe that Mance Rayder is Rhaegar Targaryen or Arthur Dayne.

And to follow up on the last point, any theory that posits that Ned, Lyanna, Rhaegar, and/or Arthur Dayne are still alive makes me want to :bang:

[Nausicaä]

I refuse to believe that Cersei and Jaime are Aerys' children. We don't know a lot about Joanna, but she doesn't seem like the kind of woman who would ever sleep with a man besides Tywin, and I don't think she would have allowed Aerys to force himself on her.

I think you're within your right not to believe any Lannister=secret Targ theories, but this seems like a weird argument to me. A person can't choose whether to allow another person to force themselves on them or not. That's not what "forcing" means. Rape kind of implies lack of consent and control over the situation. Same for sexual harassment - we know that Aerys harassed Joanna (even though we don't know to what extent), that doesn't mean she (or Tywin) allowed it to happen.

I don't believe Sansa is going to willingly keep the identity of Alayne or stay in the Vale as the story progresses. If you don't believe her story is firmly tied to the North, I don't even know what to say to you.

[Florina Laufeyson]

If you don't believe her story is firmly tied to the North, I don't even know what to say to you.

Agreed. I believe that if her arc goes in any direction, it will be North.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'd add that in the case of the KG, orders and vows do not have to be mutually exclusive. That is to say, while they may have been initially acting on orders given by Rhaegar, through a series of unpredictable events they were also fulfilling their main KG vow of protecting their King. Just saying it doesn't have to be an either / or scenario...

This is pretty much what I believe, for what it's worth.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Care to elaborate please?? what weird vow apart from "Protect the king, Jon is the next king"?

I think you misunderstood my post. I believe that they were there protecting the king, not a mistress and her bastard.

Martin's pretty clear in addressing this as a questions about orders. Not their vows, as such, except insofar that those vows make them obey orders given to them by royal personages. But his answer is, look, they can't make up their orders, they have to obey the orders they're given, and if Rhaegar gave them such an order, they'd feel bound by it. And since he addresses it as a question about orders and how they respond to them, clearly, there is an order involved.

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

In my view, GRRM answered the question without answering the question. I do believe that Prince Rhaegar gave them an order that never conflicted with their vows to protect the king. When he initially left the tower, I do believe that Rhaegar told the Kingsguard to protect a pregnant Lyanna, and they were well within their vows to do so--considering Jaime was still at the Red Keep protecting Aerys. When they discovered that Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon were dead, I believe that Jon was already born and therefore the new king. They stayed, adhering to both their vows--to protect the king--and the order they received from Rhaegar--to protect Lyanna and her child. That is the only thing that makes sense to me at this point, and nothing that I believe conflicts with anything stated by GRRM.

[J. Stargaryen]

They're not beholden to Rhaegar, they're beholden to their vows, as Martin makes very clear when answering the question.

It may seem strange and even unpalatable to think that they'd be motivated to follow orders from a dead man rather than going to protect the rest of the family if there's really no heir at the Tower of Joy, because the mindset is foreign to us, but that's kind of the whole point: the whole thing is alien to us, and the mores of Westeros and the norms of chivalric conduct and the importance of vows and oaths are something we don't really have.

I am not arguing that Rhaegar's son was not at the Tower of Joy (though, in fact, I don't believe he was; he was at Starfall, I'm pretty sure, after his mother proved too ill, could not be moved, and there was fear that the boy would be infected with her illness), but merely that I don't believe any such thing is required to explain their presence. They had orders, they were following them as best they knew how.

This is an interesting idea, and offers possible explanations for certain events (Ned traveling to Starfall, Ashara's apparent suicide), but I really feel like GRRM has some 'splaining to do if We swore a vow means something other than ...to protect the king.

[Larry of the Lawn]

I do not believe that Rheagar + Lyanna = Joffrey. But somehow there's a pinned thread on it constantly running..

[Pinkie Baelish]

I do not believe that Rheagar + Lyanna = Joffrey. But somehow there's a pinned thread on it constantly running..

And here I was thinking it was Robert + Lysa = Jorah....

[butterbumps!]

They're not beholden to Rhaegar, they're beholden to their vows, as Martin makes very clear when answering the question.

It may seem strange and even unpalatable to think that they'd be motivated to follow orders from a dead man rather than going to protect the rest of the family if there's really no heir at the Tower of Joy, because the mindset is foreign to us, but that's kind of the whole point: the whole thing is alien to us, and the mores of Westeros and the norms of chivalric conduct and the importance of vows and oaths are something we don't really have.

I am not arguing that Rhaegar's son was not at the Tower of Joy (though, in fact, I don't believe he was; he was at Starfall, I'm pretty sure, after his mother proved too ill, could not be moved, and there was fear that the boy would be infected with her illness), but merely that I don't believe any such thing is required to explain their presence. They had orders, they were following them as best they knew how.

Are you of the opinion that Jon is the true Targaryen heir? Usually the fact that the KG stayed is used as proof that Rhaegar + Lyanna were married and that Jon is legitimate. I was wondering if the implication of your read on this is to suggest that Jon is not in fact the true Targ heir, and/ or that he's not actually legitimate.

[Starkbringer]

I don't believe Benjen is Cold Hands. Coldhands is very old according to TCOTF. Benjen is not old enough to be Coldhands.

I don't bellieve Syrio is alive.

I don't believe there are any other living Targaryens besides Dany.

I don't believe Jon and Dany will marry.

[kephv]

This is an interesting idea, and offers possible explanations for certain events (Ned traveling to Starfall, Ashara's apparent suicide), but I really feel like GRRM has some 'splaining to do if We swore a vow means something other than ...to protect the king.

He obviously still has a lot of explaining to do with regards to Aerys' seven and their motives. But I think there's enough hints alrealdy to suggest they (some of them) weren't as completely loyal to Aerys as we might think.