Troubling thought: Did Martin ultimately show Eddard sacrificing his principles by falsely admitting to treason?

[Free Northman]

I have long been bothered by Eddard's execution scene.

Eddard's great virtue has been that he is the most honorable man in Westeros.

In contrast to Eddard's "honor of steel", we are told throughout the books by various "wise" characters how tough it is to hold onto your vows, but that it is nevertheless the right thing to do. Maester Aemon gives Jon the example of his own vows when his family was killed in Robert's Rebellion, and the ancient Lord Commanders who had 10,000 men under them when their Houses were under threat in the South, yet held firm to their vows.

The examples of the virtue of holding onto your honor are provided numerous more times.

Then, I can't recall who, but at some point, a LESS than savory character says that true principles can only be tested when you have to choose between those principles and someone you love more than life itself.

With this in mind, it is therefore the ultimate injustice for Martin to have portrayed Eddard as ultimately forsaking his honor, falsely admitting to treason and proclaiming Joffrey to be the true King when he has to choose between his honor and Sansa's life.

Martin is effectively saying that when it finally came down to a hard choice, Eddard was unable to live up to his principles, forsaking all that he held true when it came down to saving his daughter's life.

Ironically, we see Ser Rodrik having to make the exact same choice when Theon shows him his daugther Beth Cassel on top of Winterfell's walls, and as much as it breaks his heart, Ser Rodrik stays true to his principles and is willing to sacrifice Beth to do his duty.

Ultimately, Martin is therefore showing Ser Rodrik as a truer, more honorable man than Eddard himself.

I feel very uncomfortable with the way Martin chose to depict this situation. It makes a mockery of the very virtues Eddard is cherished for by the majority of fans, and shows him as a weaker man than his very servant, Ser Rodrik.

Thoughts?

[Lion of Judah]

Hmm...I always found the scene troubling, I'm not sure if GRRM was trying to make a statement or not, but none the less he did. I would highlight that if R+L=J is true, that would establish Eddard's pattern of putting family before honor. I view Ser Rodrick as a man who has been influenced by Ned's code of honor and though a hard choosing I think his decision had more to do with common sense. At the time he had no way of knowing Ramsay would hack off his arm and the Dreadfort men would turn. Seeing Theon's numbers led him to believe that he could surpress them with a larger force. I don't know if that decision was so much about honor or mathematics. I do like your point though.

[The guy from the Vale]

I have long been bothered by Eddard's execution scene.

Eddard's great virtue has been that he is the most honorable man in Westeros.

In contrast to Eddard's "honor of steel", we are told throughout the books by various "wise" characters how tough it is to hold onto your vows, but that it is nevertheless the right thing to do. Maester Aemon gives Jon the example of his own vows when his family was killed in Robert's Rebellion, and the ancient Lord Commanders who had 10,000 men under them when their Houses were under threat in the South, yet held firm to their vows.

The examples of the virtue of holding onto your honor are provided numerous more times.

Then, I can't recall who, but at some point, a LESS than savory character says that true principles can only be tested when you have to choose between those principles and someone you love more than life itself.

With this in mind, it is therefore the ultimate injustice for Martin to have portrayed Eddard as ultimately forsaking his honor, falsely admitting to treason and proclaiming Joffrey to be the true King when he has to choose between his honor and Sansa's life.

Martin is effectively saying that when it finally came down to a hard choice, Eddard was unable to live up to his principles, forsaking all that he held true when it came down to saving his daughter's life.

Ironically, we see Ser Rodrik having to make the exact same choice when Theon shows him his daugther Beth Cassel on top of Winterfell's walls, and as much as it breaks his heart, Ser Rodrik stays true to his principles and is willing to sacrifice Beth to do his duty.

Ultimately, Martin is therefore showing Ser Rodrik as a truer, more honorable man than Eddard himself.

I feel very uncomfortable with the way Martin chose to depict this situation. It makes a mockery of the very virtues Eddard is cherished for by the majority of fans, and shows him as a weaker man than his very servant, Ser Rodrik.

Thoughts?

No, I think Eddard is extremely consistent here. He's all about honor, agreed - unless the lives of children, or of his family members, are in danger. That's the important point here. Ned doesn't confess because he cares for his own life, but he fears for Sansa and Arya, so he strikes the deal.

[Ser Lewis]

I think Eddard's main agenda has always been to protect his family. So when you look at it like that, he stayed true to what he counts as honor. You do have a point though, he was willing to break up a family and exile them all because it is the honorable thing to do. Although on the flip side he could have had them all killed.

[Pihla]

I have always felt that Eddard is best descriped by his attempt to protect chidren, not so much by his honour. For example, the whole Jon situation is not honourable, but Eddards way to protect a child.

[Lion of Judah]

I think Eddard's main agenda has always been to protect his family. So when you look at it like that, he stayed true to what he counts as honor. You do have a point though, he was willing to break up a family and exile them all because it is the honorable thing to do. Although on the flip side he could have had them all killed.

This. And is it not honorable to protect ones family?

[Lummel]

...I feel very uncomfortable with the way Martin chose to depict this situation. It makes a mockery of the very virtues Eddard is cherished for by the majority of fans, and shows him as a weaker man than his very servant, Ser Rodrik.

Thoughts?

Don't forget that The Ned also either evaded telling the truth about Jon or broke his troth to Catelyn. He is forced by other people to choose between his honour and his daughters lives, it not as though The Ned as an act of his own violition decided not to sacrifice his daughter to his own honour. That strikes me as the noble thing to do.

[danm_999]

It's not exactly out of character though, is it? On Ned's moral compass the true north is the protection of his family and those he loves, not 'honour'.

For example, he lies about ordering Catelyn to arrest Tyrion to protect her. He lies about changing Robert's will to give him some peace on his deathbed. If you subscribe to R+L=J, he lied quite a bit and committed treason to save his nephew.

So him lying to save Sansa and Arya doesn't seem all that out of character to me.

[Antonius Pius]

Eddard chose his family over his honour, every time. He said he gave Cat the order to arrest Tyrion, when we know that's not true.

And Ser Rodrik is in a very different situation. It's Beth vs House Stark and the good of the North. And he still doesn't know he can trust Theon. Hard to deal with traitors.

For Ned, trapped in the Black Cells, it's his life vs Sansa's. That's a no-brainer for a man like Ned.

[miguel sanchez]

I was troubled by this when I first saw the show, before I read the books. However I have have come to conclude that Eddard did the right thing. It would have served no purpose whatsoever to deny his "treason" except get Sansa killed (or worse) and himself killed a much more torturous manner (not that he particularly cared about that).

One point that hasn't been touched on is Varys' hand in the decision.

[Isalie]

I do not see the problem here, had he sacrificed his daughter in favor of his honor, that would have been a problem for me. When judging him in my place as God that is, the Old Gods that is.

[Cruella]

I think Ned's biggest strength is his compassion and kindness, hidden by his icy exterior from many people (which really, seems to be a sort of shield other shy people develop, they seem cold, but they are just introverted). Whereas his adherence to westerosi outdated ideas of honour is something of a weakness.

"Honour" is selfish thing when it's not about good of others. Ned didn't change anything by accepting Joffrey in front of people, I would despise him if he sacrificed daughter's life (who was in danger because of his own mix of stupidity and kindness) just so that he, essentially, could feel good about himself (because what else "honour" would achieve in this situation?)

[Winter's Knight]

Tch, he had to choose between dying a traitor and sacrificing his daughter or living as a traitor but sparing Sansa-he chose to sacrifice his reputation so that Sansa would stay safe. Where is the dishonour in that?

[Horza]

I have long been bothered by Eddard's execution scene.

Eddard's great virtue has been that he is the most honorable man in Westeros.

In contrast to Eddard's "honor of steel", we are told throughout the books by various "wise" characters how tough it is to hold onto your vows, but that it is nevertheless the right thing to do. Maester Aemon gives Jon the example of his own vows when his family was killed in Robert's Rebellion, and the ancient Lord Commanders who had 10,000 men under them when their Houses were under threat in the South, yet held firm to their vows.

The examples of the virtue of holding onto your honor are provided numerous more times.

I think this analysis is wrong.

Rather than reinforcing the idea that honour is a virtue to be held on to at all times, I think the books make a strong case for honour as an unobtainable and at times hypocritical objective.

Let's take Maester Aemon:

What is honor compared to a woman’s love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms . . . or the memory of a brother’s smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.

Here he acknowledges that love is the true test of duty, but the message is that this is both glorious and tragic, and hence honour isn't everything. Consequently he tells Jon: "I will not tell you stay or go. You must make that choice yourself, and live with it all the rest of your days. As I have.”

Throughout the books, characters emphasise that honour is inherently problematic and frequently incongruous with its own stated aims. Thus we have Sandor's repeated denunciations of chivalry and knighthood, but probably the best summary of the impossiblity of maintaining honourable conduct comes from Jaime in ACOK:

"So many vows... they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other."

Consequently, I don't think Martin ever meant to establish Ned as a bastion of honourable conduct, but as an example of the ambiguous and contradictory pathways a dedication to doing right by all you are bound to imposes. His inability to reconcile his obligations to Lyanna, Robert, Cat, the North and the Realm is not a failing of his character so much as a reflection of the impossibility of the task he was attempting.

[Caelestis]

Honestly, I think Eddard's choice is a reflection of a point that Martin is trying to make through ASoIaF - one that I suspect will crop up again with Jon. What is more important: staying true exactly to your honour and your vows or staying true to what that honour or that vow is meant for? Eddard is a very honourable man and that honour (along with his love) compells him to protect his family - but when that honour is only getting in the way of protecting his family, what is he supposed to do then? Ultimately, Eddard chose that words are wind and chose to forsake his honour for his family. And this is in keeping with what I'm seeing in the series in general.

Because I don't think Martin is necessarily portraying 'honour' in a positive light at all. I don't even think that wiser characters like Maester Aemon insist on staying true to your vows at all times: instead, what he really says is that, for good or bad, at a certain point you will be faced with a difficult choice. You'll have to choose between breaking your vow or not and no matter what you do, you have to live with that choice.

In a sense, I feel like Jon's entire arc is building up to some massive oath-breaking: a choice that reflects the spirit of the vow (as in, what that vow was designed to do) more than the vow itself. Let's face it: no matter how we spin this, no matter how we justify it, Jon joining the Wildlings and sleeping with Ygritte is oath-breaking. Jon deciding to take an army south and fight the Boltons is also oath-breaking. Of course, we can say that it was all 'for the Watch' - just like Bowen Marsh justified his assassination of Jon.

Stannis is all about honour and justice, but we see how his rigid devotion to it sometimes hinders his cause more than helps it: his hard incorruptable nature doesn't make him a very popular candidate for the Iron Throne, he's forced to sink to dishonourable means to defeat Renly (by killing his own brother with magic), and forced to forgive the same traitours who abandoned his (righteous) cause if he wants to have a shot at defeating Lannisters. With Stannis, there's always the question of whether it's right to take the 'honourable' or the right road.

It's the same with characters like Jaime and Brienne: Jaime repeatedly points out the stupidity of a knight of the Kingsguard having to swear so many vows. Him breaking his sworn oath to Aerys and saving King's Landing was his finest hour; him throwing Bran out the window was an attempt to save his own children, even if they were born out of incest. Brienne admonishes Jaime for his lack of honour, but when coming across Lady Stoneheart, she is faced with the exact same choice: she either chooses to serve Lady Stoneheart or condemns Podrick and Hyle Hunt to death. What is the 'honourable' thing to do then?

I'm getting the sense that Martin is actually destroying the very concept of honour: the 'honourable' thing, trying to spare Cersei and her children, was what got Eddard killed in the first place. Sacrificing his honour to save Sansa was a good thing. Jon is constantly testing the limits of his vows or going beyond them to do what is usually the right thing in that situation. Honour is a very important part of the series and I think all this is a huge set-up for one very difficult choice that Jon will have to make: breaking his vows of the Night's Watch completely for the sake of his family, the realm or both. I think Eddard's execution was foreshadowing - when in such a position, Jon will make the same choice as his (foster) father.

And really, I think this is entirely keeping with their characters: honour is not everything and both Eddard and Jon are willing to throw it away if there's something more important at stake.

[Free Northman]

Hmm...I always found the scene troubling, I'm not sure if GRRM was trying to make a statement or not, but none the less he did. I would highlight that if R+L=J is true, that would establish Eddard's pattern of putting family before honor. I view Ser Rodrick as a man who has been influenced by Ned's code of honor and though a hard choosing I think his decision had more to do with common sense. At the time he had no way of knowing Ramsay would hack off his arm and the Dreadfort men would turn. Seeing Theon's numbers led him to believe that he could surpress them with a larger force. I don't know if that decision was so much about honor or mathematics. I do like your point though.

No, but after Ser Rodrik arrives with his 2000 men, Theon brings up Beth Cassel onto the walls and says he will kill her unless Ser Rodrik withdraws. Ser Rodrik is close to crying in anguish, but he nevertheless tells Theon that his honor leaves him no choice but to continue the assault.

So even though he knows that Theon will kill Beth if he continues, he nevertheless chooses his honor over his daughter. He does this due to his duty to Eddard. It is therefore incredibly troubling that Martin depicts Eddard taking the easier way out when his bannerman Ser Rodrik stayed true to the point of sacrificing his own daughter in Eddard's service.

Eddard is therefore depicted as not being willing to make the same sacrifice that his castellan was willing to make in his service.

This is deeply troubling to me.

[Free Northman]

"What is honor compared to a woman’s love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms . . . or the memory of a brother’s smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy."

The above is my entire point. Maester Aemon said that, but with the implication that the true man will stay true to his honor despite all of the above. His example was himself sticking to the Watch when his family was being murdered, and the ancient Lord Commanders who kept their 10000 men at the Wall when their southern Houses were under threat.

Aemon's implication is clear: Weak men will not be able to stay true to their honor when the things they love most - like their children and family's wellbeing - are at stake, but a strong men WILL hold true.

The fact that Eddard was NOT able to pick honor over his daugter's life shows that he falls in the "weak" man category - not according to me, but according to Maester Aemon's definition. Implying that if Eddard was in an ancient Lord Commander's shoes, with 10000 men under his command, he would have broken his vows and raced south to defend Winterfell if his family's safety was at stake.

[Horza]

"What is honor compared to a woman’s love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms . . . or the memory of a brother’s smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy."

The above is my entire point. Maester Aemon said that, but with the implication that the true man will stay true to his honor despite all of the above. His example was himself sticking to the Watch when his family was being murdered, and the ancient Lord Commanders who kept their 10000 men at the Wall when their southern Houses were under threat.

The implication is nothing of the sort - by adding 'glory' to 'tragedy' Aemon is acknowledging that love and duty, when put to the test are of equal standing, which is why he doesn't say: "And so Jon Snow, you must stay true to your vows whatever the hardships placed in your path, like I did all those years ago.."

But instead says: "I will not tell you stay or go. You must make that choice yourself, and live with it all the rest of your days. As I have.”

The reader is left with a sense that Aemon's situation was impossible, and that the pain and doubts of his choices are with him to this day.

[Lummel]

I'm not sure that Maester Aemon's point is to divide humanity into strong and weak types. He describes this as the tragedy of humanity, not because some are weak or strong, but because the individual and their feelings will come into conflict with their social obligations.

To turn this round Free Northman, would you really have been happier if The Ned had denounced Joffrey as a bastard and seen Sansa executed before he himself was put to death?

ETA it does strike that there is a difference in duty towards others and duty towards yourself. Both Rodrick sacrifice their duty towards themselves in favour of something they value more. Beth and The Ned's honour are equivalent here, both of them are offered up on the alter in favour of a duty towards others.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Honor, and morality, is ultimately in the eyes of the beholder. Ned sacrificing his honor for his daughter's life can also said to be honorable. Though, I am fairly sure Rodrik Cassel would do the same in Eddard's situation, since there was no one else involved, not the North, not Winterfell etc. And I am fairly sure Eddard Stark would not surrender to Theon in Rodrik's situation, even if Sansa or Arya was up there.