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‘Muslim Patrol’ vigilantes forcing ‘people to stop drinking and women to cover up’ in London


cseresz.reborn

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Look, it's not really relevant to this particular thread topic, but I genuinely yearn for the Old Times in general, yes. And I'm not even old.

Incidentally, it's something I've noted in the work of my favourite author - Dean Koontz - of late. He clearly is incorporating a theme in his novels that things used to be better in the old days. That society is falling apart at the seams today. And I fully agree with that.

Hence me being a conservative, I guess.

Anyway, back to this thread topic, which I joined for a few idle comments, but once again got drawn into way beyond my initial intention.

Don't worry about it, but the good old days become the good old days in retrospect. They had their problems, stresses and fears too back in the day, just with worse plumbing and fewer consumer durables. And their problems were no less frightening and no less real to them than ours are to us.

Obviously. The rate is what is important, since the actual rate makes it absolutely impossible for "Eurabia" to happen in 50 years like people think.

Also, Europe is largely secular, which means that in 50 years, children and grandchildren of muslim immigrants will also most likely be mainly secular and have birthrates that have dropped to "standard", judging by how other immigrant groups have behaved in the past.

Hence the scaremongering is totally unecessary and has no basis in reality. Statistics can directly refute the claims made.

I thought Africa has the fastest growing population due to high birthrates...in which case we'll all be over run by pentecostalists speaking in tongues

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Look, it's not really relevant to this particular thread topic, but I genuinely yearn for the Old Times in general, yes. And I'm not even old.

Incidentally, it's something I've noted in the work of my favourite author - Dean Koontz - of late. He clearly is incorporating a theme in his novels that things used to be better in the old days. That society is falling apart at the seams today. And I fully agree with that.

Hence me being a conservative, I guess.

Anyway, back to this thread topic, which I joined for a few idle comments, but once again got drawn into way beyond my initial intention.

What exactly do you mean by the good old days? Because if we're talking about religion here it only gets worse as you go back. The 1800's when scientists like Charles Darwin were laughed at and ostracised when their theories didn't match up with the tennants of the Church? The 1500's when the world's biggest organised religion was ruled over by a corrupt tyrant? Or maybe you meant the 1100's when thousands were slaughtered in the middle east in the name of god. A few religious nuts shouting at people in pubs is hardly anything compared to all that.

I remain fully optimistic that religion will continue to decline in prominence as we move through the 21'st century and I hope that one day organised religion can be abolished all together.

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I'm happy that the 50 year claim has been dismissed. I accept that. I disagree on the notion that this refutes the entire argument. though.

Then what argument is being made? That Muslims are overrunning Europe? That things change in general? I'm not certain what is being argued apart from Europe as eurabia.

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Then what argument is being made? That Muslims are overrunning Europe? That things change in general? I'm not certain what is being argued apart from Europe as eurabia.

I know exactly the argument he is making. 1950s were the utopia when uppity women and coloureds knew their place and being gay was illegal.

N

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We all know that most muslims living in western european countries are normal, decent citizens who do not pose a threat to anyone. But to not acknowledge that there are problems - out of a fear that this minority may be discriminated against - is, in my opinion, also wrong and dangerous.

There was an incident last year where a rabbi was hit and insulted in front of his daughter in Berlin - because he was a jew- which was very disturbing, and I thought it also disturbing that the first outcry of the public media about this event immedately died off, when it got clear that it were "only" muslims (mind you, germans but of arabic descendents) who did it.

I do not think it right that we do not ask the same amount of tolerance against minorties from the muslim communities as we ask from ourselves and - they demand from us.

There are studies that the antisemitism in the muslim communities in european countries are horrendesly high and no one is doing something about it because they are a minorty themselves.

The same problem is their relationship to women ( I think it cannot be tolareted to insult women as animals in public and to generate a surounding of fear ) Again I do not believe and do not claim that every muslim does this but I do think that there is a connection between radical islamistic views and hate of woman and we should not look away if this is happening in our societies.

It is also not true (in Germany, I don't know about other countries) that the second and third generation is less radical. On the contrary there are studies that while the first generation mostly arrived for work and was busy doing so and to blend in the second and third generation (perhaps also out of a feeling of being unwanted, and out of social problems as unemployment) started to build communities of their own and to get more religious and radical.

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Stupid laptop ate my response. If I can reconstruct it:

Also, Europe is largely secular, which means that in 50 years, children and grandchildren of muslim immigrants will also most likely be mainly secular and have birthrates that have dropped to "standard", judging by how other immigrant groups have behaved in the past.

Also also, Secular and Religious aren't two immutable titans. Looking at Christians in the UK, we have weird fundies, sincerely religiously practising people who fall short of being weird fundies, people who go to church a few times a year and definitely believe in God but appear secularised otherwise, and people who tick Christian and Church of England on the census because it would be weird to do anything else but only think about God every ten years. Plus agnostics and atheists from historically Christian families.

We don't need to posit that half of Muslims must become secular in order to stop Eurabia predictions from coming true, because we who live next to Real Muslims see the mix of secular and religious traits within the same person, just as we do in Christians.

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I love these "Everything is scary woahhhhh" threads.

Regarding the original point of the thread, why even give these people the time of day? Free speech is cool, because whilst crazy people can say horrible things to people, we can also turn around and tell them to jog on.

Life is good, generally. The world isn't out to get us.

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Also also, Secular and Religious aren't two immutable titans.

I tend to be an optimist in this so in some ways I think they are immutable, and I hope people in the future will be more clever and abandon relgion in favour of better things. ;)

However, by and large, I still agree with your position that people of various religions can mix and it's not an issue as such, and it won't create some sort of odd theocracy.

Your mind reading skills need some improvement, in that case.

It does however beg the question: when was this golden age? I can only think of the 60s really since the 40s had WW2, the 30s dealt with the aftermath of the Great Depression, the 50s were, well, the 50s, with unhappy housewives, racism and cold war. At least in the 60s they had the Beatles, but on the other hand you had the Bay of Pigs, the Vietnam war and the cultural revolution in China, so it's not all great. The 70s were recession time, the 80s were cold and capitalist and saw the advent of AIDS.

So, the 1990s? Or the 1920s? Or earlier? I mean, once we go back to the 1920s and earlier, you have stuff like poor health care being a real bummer. Tuberculosis, death in child birth, infections etc. were real issues back then with no antibiotics, no vaccines, no nothing.

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I guess I look at the state of the humanity as a massive clash of world views, and that some are going to fall by the wayside, while others will triumph. We cannot predict which will end up on the trash heap and which will rule the world.

No, we can't. But think back to what I said about the Muslims that I've met: the most important things to them are the most important things to us, and historically have been the most important things to everyone. Good health. Good education. Good jobs. Safety. Security. Wealth. A predictable, secure, contented life for you and your children (who tend, as noted, to decrease in number as their prospects improve).

Whenever there's been a clash of world views, the winner (in the long term) has always been the view that best supplies these universals to the maximum number of people. The radical Islam that you fear cannot and does not supply them. So try not to fret. ;)

I do not think it right that we do not ask the same amount of tolerance against minorties from the muslim communities as we ask from ourselves and - they demand from us.

That's nice. Of course, we do actually ask the same tolerance from Muslims as from anyone else, so you're fighting a straw man here.

There are studies that the antisemitism in the muslim communities in european countries are horrendesly high and no one is doing something about it because they are a minorty themselves.

No-one is doing something about it? Nobody in Europe is campaigning to reduce anti-Semitism among Muslims? This will come as a surprise to those Muslim ladies I mentioned earlier, whose interfaith group includes this specifically as an aim. I could also point to the fact that anti-Semitism is covered by the same legislation in the UK as anti-Islamic prejudice and is treated identically by that legislation.

The same problem is their relationship to women ( I think it cannot be tolareted to insult women as animals in public and to generate a surounding of fear )

See previous point - it all applies equally here.

Again I do not believe and do not claim that every muslim does this but I do think that there is a connection between radical islamistic views and hate of woman and we should not look away if this is happening in our societies.

Good. We're not.

It is also not true (in Germany, I don't know about other countries) that the second and third generation is less radical.

Yes, it is. The data show that they are less radical, although with two caveats: a very small number are more radical, and Muslim immigrants become more secular at a slower rate than others. Nevertheless, they do become less radical.

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I tend to be an optimist in this so in some ways I think they are immutable, and I hope people in the future will be more clever and abandon relgion in favour of better things. ;)

However, by and large, I still agree with your position that people of various religions can mix and it's not an issue as such, and it won't create some sort of odd theocracy.

It does however beg the question: when was this golden age? I can only think of the 60s really since the 40s had WW2, the 30s dealt with the aftermath of the Great Depression, the 50s were, well, the 50s, with unhappy housewives, racism and cold war. At least in the 60s they had the Beatles, but on the other hand you had the Bay of Pigs, the Vietnam war and the cultural revolution in China, so it's not all great. The 70s were recession time, the 80s were cold and capitalist and saw the advent of AIDS.

So, the 1990s? Or the 1920s? Or earlier? I mean, once we go back to the 1920s and earlier, you have stuff like poor health care being a real bummer. Tuberculosis, death in child birth, infections etc. were real issues back then with no antibiotics, no vaccines, no nothing.

Maybe we need a seperate thread on that.

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"The good old days" almost invariably refers to a few cherry-picked aspects of society that particularly piques whoever reminisces about the 'before time'.

"So we got rid of smallpox, hurray, but back then at least the trains went on time!"

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"The good old days" almost invariably refers to a few cherry-picked aspects of society that particularly piques whoever reminisces about the 'before time'.

"So we got rid of smallpox, hurray, but back then at least the trains went on time!"

Of course. It goes without saying that it's nice that we have various medical and technological advances to make life easier today, but I have serious problems with today's society. The average person is a poor immitation of the people their parents and grandparents were.

Anyway, as I said, it's a topic for another thread.

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Of course. It goes without saying that it's nice that we have various medical and technological advances to make life easier today, but I have serious problems with today's society. The average person is a poor immitation of the people their parents and grandparents were.

Anyway, as I said, it's a topic for another thread.

My Grandad was a drunken old racist and my parents told me they were getting divorced on the stroke of midnight at the Millennium celebrations wen I was ten years old. At Disneyland.

If I'm a poor imitation of that then I'm utterly fucked.

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My Grandad was a drunken old racist and my parents told me they were getting divorced on the stroke of midnight at the Millennium celebrations wen I was ten years old. At Disneyland.

If I'm a poor imitation of that then I'm utterly fucked.

I think he harbors the sentiment that it takes a world war to forge nice people, like how back in WW2 there were 'real men' because they were thrown into conflict at 16, and today, if you aren't fighting for/have already died for, freedom, you're trash.

Of course. It goes without saying that it's nice that we have various medical and technological advances to make life easier today, but I have serious problems with today's society. The average person is a poor immitation of the people their parents and grandparents were.

How old are you? How much do you remember of this old society? And how much do you know of today's society?

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My Grandad was a drunken old racist and my parents told me they were getting divorced on the stroke of midnight at the Millennium celebrations wen I was ten years old. At Disneyland.

If I'm a poor imitation of that then I'm utterly fucked.

Good God that sucks. :lol:

And here I thought my parents sucked for deciding to divorce the second time a couple of days before Christmas. The first time they divorced I was only 5 years old so it didn't bother me that much.

However they decided to remarry for the third time on the same day I was about to present my Master's thesis and had me as a "surprise witness" like an hour before I had to present it. At the court house. Where I thought someone was going to be prosecuted. And I was dressed all in black, too.

But as it turns out, they aren't actually that bad! :lol:

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Most things been covered already, a daft bunch of idiots chatting shit and intimidating people just like other ignorant groups have been known to intimidate.

One thing though that got said and (almost) let slide,

We do observe the customs of a different country if we go there, so the least we should expect is the same courtesy

One thing British people are notoriously crap at is observing local customs in other countries and generally having any level of respect for other countries customs/language etc...

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Good God that sucks. :lol:

And here I thought my parents sucked for deciding to divorce the second time a couple of days before Christmas. The first time they divorced I was only 5 years old so it didn't bother me that much.

However they decided to remarry for the third time on the same day I was about to present my Master's thesis and had me as a "surprise witness" like an hour before I had to present it. At the court house. Where I thought someone was going to be prosecuted. And I was dressed all in black, too.

But as it turns out, they aren't actually that bad! :lol:

Yeah it wasn't great. Yours sounds like it ended ok though? :)

One thing British people are notoriously crap at is observing local customs in other countries and generally having any level of respect for other countries customs/language etc...

It's always good to get down to The Flag & Tattoo or whatever it's called on Benidorm high street to hang out with English folk and watch a bit of Only Fools & Horses.

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