Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Apple Martini

A King in Hiding: Adding It All Up

438 posts in this topic

This thread was inspired by a brief-but-illuminating exchange with Fire Eater in the Moments of Foreshadowing thread. FE dropped in a little foreshadowing nugget about Jon that I had completely missed, and yet after seeing it, it amazed me at how obvious it was.

I'm speaking, of course, of little clues and easter eggs in the text that point to Jon being a king and/or having royal blood.

Mormont's warged raven cawing "King! King!" is the obvious one here. But there is also Jon's (ironic?) observation that Mance's blood is "no more royal" than his own. Varamyr says that a direwolf would be a second life worthy of a king. To expand further and tie in "king" to "hero," we also have Sansa wishing for a hero to chop off Janos Slynt's head. Jon eventually does the deed — is that an obtuse way of saying that Jon is "a" hero, perhaps even "the" hero?

When thinking about the nomenclature of Wylla in another discussion, it dawned on me that Lyanna Stark and Wylla of Dorne and Lyanna Mormont and Wylla Manderly sort of book-end each other. The former pair nurtured and protected Jon in the first part of his life, while the latter pair is vehemently calling for a Stark King in the North, and Robb legitimized Jon in his will.

And then there's the one FE brought up, the one that made me wonder how many of these things are out there that we haven't even noticed yet.

"Kings are a rare sight in the north." Robert snorted "More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!"

Anyone have any more of these? Either in Jon's POV or someone else's. I have to think that there are other clues out there that have been overlooked thus far.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was familiar with each of the other bits of foreshadowing you listed first, but that last one from Robert was new to me too. Good stuff!

I'm sure there's more, I just need to to a bit of rereading when I get a chance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

“Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes,”

Jon about why he isn't allowed to train with Joffrey.

The boy absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son.

Not much about Jon being a king, but ironic as Jon actually looks nothing like his father.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

“Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes,”

Jon about why he isn't allowed to train with Joffrey.

This reminds me of Jon and Joffrey's funny symmetry. Jon is a legitimate prince/king being passed off as a bastard, and Joffrey is a bastard being passed off as a legitimate prince/king. I smell a sitcom.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When Jon is joking with Tycho Nestoris that they could do with a Dragon at the Wall to warm things up a bit, Tycho gets all upset, and the irony is that there is of course a Dragon at the Wall and he is in the very same room as Tycho at that very moment!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But how do they remove Rickon from the order?

If Robb explicitly named Jon his heir, then Jon is his heir.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's a pretty nice quote/easter egg indeed, and I have to admit it passed me by :cheers: good stuff, AM and FE!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't have Dance with Dragons with me now, so I can't cite it properly. When Gilly is with Jon she kneels before him and he tells her she shouldn't kneel before him because kneeling is just for kings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This reminds me of Jon and Joffrey's funny symmetry. Jon is a legitimate prince/king being passed off as a bastard, and Joffrey is a bastard being passed off as a legitimate prince/king. I smell a sitcom.

too bad Joffrey didn't find out, it would have been sweet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But how do they remove Rickon from the order?

If Robb explicitly named Jon his heir, then Jon is his heir.

Also if Robb as King legitimized Jon, wouldn't that make Jon, Rickon's Elder brother, first in succession?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also if Robb as King legitimized Jon, wouldn't that make Jon, Rickon's Elder brother, first in succession?

Look, we know Jon will never keep Winterfell from a trueborn son of Eddard. So at best Jon will occupy the Northern Throne for a limited time, before either dying (I hope not, but very likely), or moving on to take the Iron Throne instead - Eúron's plan with Victarrion is the foreshadowing in that Euron is willing to give the Seastone Chair to Victarrion while he himself then moves onto take the Iron Throne, or else Jon might abdicate in the end and live a simple life at the Wall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The boy absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son.

Not much about Jon being a king, but ironic as Jon actually looks nothing like his father.

I love this quote. Such a great piece of, "Sure, that makes sense," when you're reading the series for the first time, and then "Holy shit! I get it!" when you've learned of RLJ theory.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also if Robb as King legitimized Jon, wouldn't that make Jon, Rickon's Elder brother, first in succession?

Technically legitimized bastards come before trueborn children. My thinking is that Robb would have thought, when he wrote the will, that Bran and Rickon were dead. So why bother including them? Rickon is also a small child while Jon is an adult with leadership and warfare experience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like Fire Eater's quote from Robert, the emphasis on "Snow" seems intentional enough to give the theory more credibility imo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This one might be a stretch, but I like it. In AGOT, when Tyrion first meets Jon:

"I know," Jon said. He rose. Standing, he was taller than the dwarf. It made him feel strange.

He favored Jon with a rueful grin. " Remember this, boy. All dwarfs may be bastards, yet not all bastards need be dwarfs."

And with that he turned and sauntered back into the feast, whistling a tune. When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear a cross the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.

I took that to mean that Tyrion's shadow was just as tall as Jon in that moment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This one might be a stretch, but I like it. In AGOT, when Tyrion first meets Jon:

I took that to mean that Tyrion's shadow was just as tall as Jon in that moment.

I like it. Or you could interpret it that Tyrion's shadow is tall as a King, but since Jon is taller still than a King, he is a King of Kings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This one might be a stretch, but I like it. In AGOT, when Tyrion first meets Jon:

I took that to mean that Tyrion's shadow was just as tall as Jon in that moment.

This one is interesting because a lot of people read that as some sort of foreshadowing of Tyrion being a king. But if you read it as a comparison between Tyrion and Jon, then it takes on a completely different meaning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This one is interesting because a lot of people read that as some sort of foreshadowing of Tyrion being a king. But if you read it as a comparison between Tyrion and Jon, then it takes on a completely different meaning.

Yes, this was the first time that I looked at that passage as an indirect reference to Jon's status, rather than as a reference to Tyrion's potential.

I like the Jon interpretation better!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Technically legitimized bastards come before trueborn children. My thinking is that Robb would have thought, when he wrote the will, that Bran and Rickon were dead. So why bother including them? Rickon is also a small child while Jon is an adult with leadership and warfare experience.

Ah thanks, got confused on that one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.