A King in Hiding: Adding It All Up

[Sand Snake No. 9]

It could change if the Nights Watch is dissolved maybe? That would surely release Jon from his vows.

Hard to conceive how that could happen though.

I don't know if the Night's Watch will be dissolved (implying some resolution by the leadership), but I see it about to be destroyed by corruption from the inside and enemies from the outside, and shortly thereafter the wall will be breached by the Others. I also don't think that Jon will feel quite the same about the NW and his vows when he awakes covered with stab wounds. I do expect Jon to come back fighting, and clearly, if Jon goes on to save the realm, he'll get whatever throne he wants. Assuming he survives WFTD II, that is, and I don't think he will.

Anyway that's a long way of saying I don't think the NW or Jon's vows will be an issue much longer.

[Kahl Trollo]

I must see it differently - if there is an end-story with Jon surviving, I'd be putting him rebuilding the Nights Watch - for those very reasons.

[Techelles]

I don't know if the Night's Watch will be dissolved (implying some resolution by the leadership), but I see it about to be destroyed by corruption from the inside and enemies from the outside, and shortly thereafter the wall will be breached by the Others. I also don't think that Jon will feel quite the same about the NW and his vows when he awakes covered with stab wounds. I do expect Jon to come back fighting, and clearly, if Jon goes on to save the realm, he'll get whatever throne he wants. Assuming he survives WFTD II, that is, and I don't think he will.

Anyway that's a long way of saying I don't think the NW or Jon's vows will be an issue much longer.

I posted something very similar to this the other day. This is basically my best guess for what is about to happen. I think the main function of Jon's death was to create chaos at the wall, and while the NW is fighting the wildlings, the Others will descend upon the wall, possibly tearing a breach in it. This will scatter everyone there south across the north, and the NW will effectively be over. Maybe Rickon will refound it later. As for thrones, I think Jon may well accept the mantle of the KitN -- that, or become regent -- but only in order to unify the North against the Others. I don't think he'll go for the IT. I'm hoping that when R+L=J comes out, people all across the realm will see Rhaegar's son fighting the good fight and decide that he might be a man worth following.

[Arya Targaryen]

I posted something very similar to this the other day. This is basically my best guess for what is about to happen. I think the main function of Jon's death was create chaos at the wall, and while the NW is fighting the wildlings, the Others will descend upon the wall, possibly tearing a breach in it. This will scatter everyone there south across the north, and the NW will effectively be over. Maybe Rickon will refound it later. As for thrones, I think Jon may well accept the mantle of the KitN -- that, or become regent -- but only in order to unify the North against the Others. I don't think he'll go for the IT. I'm hoping that when R+L=J comes out, people all across the realm will see Rhaegar's son fighting the good fight and decide that he might be a man worth following.

:agree: My thoughts exactly. (Though for some reason I think there won't be any need for a NW in the future, once they won the was against the Others. Bran would know that. I think the main reason behind the NW was, that some greenseer (brandon the builder?) knew 8000 years ago that the Others will come back. Bran may know if the Others are done forever or they need to prepare for another war in the next 8000 years.)

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I posted something very similar to this the other day. This is basically my best guess for what is about to happen. I think the main function of Jon's death was create chaos at the wall, and while the NW is fighting the wildlings, the Others will descend upon the wall, possibly tearing a breach in it. This will scatter everyone there south across the north, and the NW will effectively be over. Maybe Rickon will refound it later. As for thrones, I think Jon may well accept the mantle of the KitN -- that, or become regent -- but only in order to unify the North against the Others. I don't think he'll go for the IT. I'm hoping that when R+L=J comes out, people all across the realm will see Rhaegar's son fighting the good fight and decide that he might be a man worth following.

Old Nan did say that as long as the Wall stands and the Night's Watch remains true, people south of the wall were safe from the Others. I think we can take it as a given that people south of the Wall will NOT be safe. We've already seen that the Night's Watch has not been true -- not when the Old Bear was killed, not when Jon was attacked, the next step is for the wall to be breached or to come down all together. If there's a future after the Other invasion, the Night's Watch won't be needed because there won't be any Wall to guard and without major magic it can't be rebuilt.

Even though it's not a very popular idea, I'm also pretty sure that Jon is going to use the "I died so now my watch is over" loophole to get out of his vows. After GRRM set it up, why wouldn't he go there?

[Ducks in a Field]

Even though it's not a very popular idea, I'm also pretty sure that Jon is going to use the "I died so now my watch is over" loophole to get out of his vows. After GRRM set it up, why wouldn't he go there?

Because that is not who Jon is. I am fairly sure Littlefinger would abuse a loophole like that - maybe even other people who are actually considered good. Not Jon - Jon is Ned's son in his upbringing if not his seed. Jon is honourable and true. His watch will only end when he cannot watch anymore.

EDIT: realised the original wording made it sound like I considered Littlefinger good.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Because that is not who Jon is. I am fairly sure Littlefinger would abuse a loophole like that - maybe even other people who are actually considered good. Not Jon - Jon is Ned's son in his upbringing if not his seed. Jon is honourable and true. His watch will only end when he cannot watch anymore.

EDIT: realised the original wording made it sound like I considered Littlefinger good.

I'm not a believer in Saint Jon of the Wall, or in futile gestures in the name of honor. If Jon survives I want him to get off the freezing celibacy train, find a nice warm girl and a hot fire to sit beside and live as happily ever after as possible in a craptastic world.

[Techelles]

Old Nan did say that as long as the Wall stands and the Night's Watch remains true, people south of the wall were safe from the Others. I think we can take it as a given that people south of the Wall will NOT be safe. We've already seen that the Night's Watch has not been true -- not when the Old Bear was killed, not when Jon was attacked, the next step is for the wall to be breached or to come down all together. If there's a future after the Other invasion, the Night's Watch won't be needed because there won't be any Wall to guard and without major magic it can't be rebuilt.

Even though it's not a very popular idea, I'm also pretty sure that Jon is going to use the "I died so now my watch is over" loophole to get out of his vows. After GRRM set it up, why wouldn't he go there?

I just assumed that if the NW was thrown back from the wall and hopelessly scattered (like after the battle on the Fist), then Jon would no longer need a loophole. When I mentioned the function of Jon's death, I basically meant that it was to destroy the NW and free Jon from his vows so he could take up the fight on a grander scale.

Also, I actually forgot Old Nan said that. That's really hitting home right now.

[Ducks in a Field]

I'm not a believer in Saint Jon of the Wall, or in futile gestures in the name of honor. If Jon survives I want him to get off the freezing celibacy train, find a nice warm girl and a hot fire to sit beside and live as happily ever after as possible in a craptastic world.

Oh I entirely agree that I would like Jon to get offthe wall and be able to start a family and have a life. I do not think this will come from him taking advantage of any loopholes though. His word is important to him, and the spirit of his vows. He was offered a valid way to leave the Night's Watch and get everything he ever wanted, he didn't take it. The only way I see Jon getting off the wall is if there is no more wall - I do not think there will be a wall at the end of the series though, so nothing to worry about.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

Think about how many few men actually kept the Old god's when Jon Snow joined the Night's Watch? He and Sam are the only ones that swear before the Heart Three.

Think about how that number increased when Jon Snow had got some wildlings to join the cause of the Night's Watch. Jon was a great threat to the others. He has a chance to bring together the wildlings, the North and lead the Night's watch to defend the wall.

The others can't simply bring down the wall by using fire. They can't wield fire.

They have to bring down the Wall by destroying the magics that protect it.

[FittleLinger]

Think about how many few men actually kept the Old god's when Jon Snow joined the Night's Watch? He and Sam are the only ones that swear before the Heart Three.

Think about how that number increased when Jon Snow had got some wildlings to join the cause of the Night's Watch. Jon was a great threat to the others. He has a chance to bring together the wildlings, the North and lead the Night's watch to defend the wall.

The others can't simply bring down the wall by using fire. They can't wield fire.

They have to bring down the Wall by destroying the magics that protect it.

I think it was just Bowen and Co afraid of change and the Others were not involved themselves. I mean, they have a green boy for a LC, who was kind of elected by cheating, and look what he's done - let the Wildlings in? Madness.

If later Bowen tells the story from his point of view, it might really sound convincing as if though Jon was mad and stupid.

[BlueEyedCrow]

I've been listening to the auidiobook after two reads, and in one of Eddard's POV chapters in GoT (obviously), Robert calls need a terrible liar, and that he couldn't lie for love or for honor...

[lady m]

Because that is not who Jon is. I am fairly sure Littlefinger would abuse a loophole like that - maybe even other people who are actually considered good. Not Jon - Jon is Ned's son in his upbringing if not his seed. Jon is honourable and true. His watch will only end when he cannot watch anymore.

I'm sure this has been brought up somewhere, but reading through this thread I didn't see it anywhere. There's great || between the arguments Jaime & Tywin have about Jamie's KG oaths/vows and Jon, assuming he's either/both Robb's heir, the true heir to the IT. Multiple places & people have referenced there being multiple orders in Westeros requiring similar vows of celibacy, no lands, no heirs, no claims to a crown for a greater cause.

Jaime is the true heir to Casterly Rock and was purposefully put into the KG by Aerys to deny Tywin an heir when Jaime was really too young to see beyond the glory of wearing a white cloak. Likewise Jon is too young to realize, and then feels like he was lied too, before donning black. Tywin wants Jaime to leave the KG and go take his place as his heir, Jaime refuses citing his vows to the KG. Jon's already refused Winterfell once, though I tend to think it has more to do with not being willing to burn the weirwoods than anything else, but it seems a real possibility that he has the best claims of anyone to more than one throne and refuses both because of his vows.

Of course if the KW ends because of cravenness and a lack of being 'true to the cause,' that changes things and seems a distinct possibility.

Eta, also it seems that Jamie's fealty to the KG is genuine, he's not staying in KL anymore for Cersei, his feelings for her seem to be greatly evolving.

Edited for grammar and spelling.

[IceGal]

If Jon's parentage becomes known (assuming R+L=J is true), he makes a great compromise candidate:

He's the son of Targs, the son of Starks, and the nephew of the Dornish ruler. Get him to marry someone from the Reach, and he's got three of the seven Kingdoms backing him, plus the old loyalists.

Jon and Margaery? Hmm..

EDit: never mind, saw that this has already been discussed.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

I think it was just Bowen and Co afraid of change and the Others were not involved themselves.

Oh. I agree but the Others are responsible for driving the wildlings south since the NW and them have been fighting for so long they've forgotten their common enemy.

[Lady of Long Lake]

I'm not a believer in Saint Jon of the Wall, or in futile gestures in the name of honor. If Jon survives I want him to get off the freezing celibacy train, find a nice warm girl and a hot fire to sit beside and live as happily ever after as possible in a craptastic world.

Yeah, I heartily agree, SS9

[Evil Jay]

Also if Robb as King legitimized Jon, wouldn't that make Jon, Rickon's Elder brother, first in succession?

No. Legitimized bastards come after all trueborn heirs, regardless of age.

If Robb explicitly named Jon his heir, then Jon is his heir.

Correct. This is different than the law regarding the default status of a legitimized bastard. If Robb did not explicitly state that Jon is the heir, and ONLY legitimized him in the will, then Jon would come after Bran and Rickon.

Technically legitimized bastards come before trueborn children.

Incorrect.

[pobeb]

We're given a tie-in between Jon and the Targaryens early on in the series, when he tells Benjen that one of his heroes (the only one ever mentioned by name) is Daeron I, the Young Dragon who conquered Dorne at 14. In that same conversation, Benjen points out the folly of Daeron's actions and the 60,000 troops lost in the taking and holding of Dorne for four years. He reminds Jon that Daeron died at the age of 18 during an uprising against his rulership of Dorne.

By the end of Dance, Jon has both risen to a leadership position at a young age and seems very close to death at the hands of rebellious people nominally under his rule. He is not quite 18 at the time, but fairly close in age to Daeron I at the time of his death.

Like the first Daeron, he is more warrior than scholar. In an interesting, but not particularly meaningful parallel, Daeron I named his uncle Viserys as Hand of the King. Jon also has an Uncle Viserys (assuming R+L).

Two Daeron Targaryens reigned in Westeros, and there are similarities between Daeron II and Jon as well. Daeron II is remembered as a good leader who brought the Martells and Dorne into the Seven Kingdoms through his marriage to Myriah Martell. Likewise, Jon presides over the only addition of a new people, the Wildlings, to the society of Westeros. They are the first meaningful addition since the time of Daeron the Good.

Daeron II's embrace of Dorne and the very Dornish flavor of the court makes him unpopular with the traditionalists among the rest of the Seven Kingdoms. This grudge becomes one of the causes of the Blackfyre Rebellions, driving those traditionalists into the arms of Daemon Blackfyre. During his tenure as Lord Commander, Jon faces many of these same issues, as his acceptance of the Wildlings and his willingness to treat them as people and allies instead of as traditional enemies of the Watch earns him the ire of the traditionalists among the black brothers. The division runs deep, and the traditionalists, led by Bowen Marsh, try to remove Jon from power.

Daeron II relied on his half-brother Bloodraven heavily during the Blackfyre Rebellion and Bloodraven's efforts mark the turning point in the war. It looks like events in the books are once again pointing toward Bloodraven and Bran playing a key role in the coming war against the others. Just as Bloodraven was a brother to Daeron II, Bran is presented as Jon's half-brother.

Martin makes a point of describing the allegations against Daeron II as a bastard produced by the affair of Queen Naerys and Aemon the Dragonknight. These rumors are used by Blackfyre allies to discredit Daeron and to portray him as a usurper. Jon's public status as a bastard is also used as a weapon against him by his detractors.

Dorne plays a key role in the stories of both Daeron Targaryens who reigned as kings in Westeros, and it is also Jon's birthplace.

I've suggested that, given the early mention of Daeron I by Jon and the parallels between their ages during their rapid rises and falls, if Jon has a "secret Targaryen name," it may in fact be Daeron.

:bowdown: This is so briliant. Kudos to you!

btw, all the succession talk is convoluting the main idea here: that Jon is a KING regardless

[Fire Eater]

His short-cropped hair was dark and peppered with grey, his strong jaw clean-shaven. His nose looked as though it had been broken before more than once. Though he was dressed very plainly

Baelor Breakspear, is the Targaryen Crown Prince and heir to the Iron Throne, but he doesn't look like a Targaryen prince with his dark hair and scarred face with no jewels or pomp. He is the perfect example of the warrior-statesman, and being a mix of pragmatism and idealism. He insists upon hostages from the houses whom he fought against in the Blackfyre Rebellion to avoid flare-ups, and also defended a mere stranger, Dunk, against his brother, nephews and knights of the KG in a trial by seven.

Baelor could be foreshadowing for Jon. Jon is the heir to the Iron Throne, but he doesn't look like a Targaryen with his dark hair and a clean-shaved, scarred face, and plain dress. He insists upon hostages from the wildlings who fought at the Battle of the Wall to avoid flare-ups. Jon defended a mere stranger, Sam, against Halder and other boys in the yard ordered by Thorne.

[FittleLinger]

His short-cropped hair was dark and peppered with grey, his strong jaw clean-shaven. His nose looked as though it had been broken before more than once. Though he was dressed very plainly

Baelor Breakspear, is the Targaryen Crown Prince and heir to the Iron Throne, but he doesn't look like a Targaryen prince with his dark hair and scarred face with no jewels or pomp. He is the perfect example of the warrior-statesman, and being a mix of pragmatism and idealism. He insists upon hostages from the houses whom he fought against in the Blackfyre Rebellion to avoid flare-ups, and also defended a mere stranger, Dunk, against his brother, nephews and knights of the KG in a trial by seven.

Baelor could be foreshadowing for Jon. Jon is the heir to the Iron Throne, but he doesn't look like a Targaryen with his dark hair and scarred face, and dressing plainly. He insists upon hostages from the wildlings who fought at the Battle of the Wall to avoid flare-ups. Jon defended a mere stranger, Sam, against Halder and other boys in the yard ordered by Thorne.

Damn it, do we really have to go "Like" now?

Anyway, I like this.