A King in Hiding: Adding It All Up

[Starks Among Us]

Ok so I've been reading through the pages and I havent seen this discussed yet.... What if Jon does become king, but not the king we expect? Those of its who speculate on his kingship do so because we think he's half Targ and now legitimized to boot, we also look for and enjoy the kingly references assuming out would lead to the IT or WF.....

What if he is dead and does not get resurrected but instead crosses to the other side ( no pun intended) and becomes the Great Other or king of the Others? many of he king references made by the word " snow" to me can be taken as a double intendre, it could literally mean Snow as in his name, snow in reference to the cold and the others or a combination of the two.... Also the instances of flashbacks of dead people ( many of them meaningful characters) that are being associated as Jon being king could also point to dead men walking ( winter is coming and there's a lot of unburned bodies and crypts missing swords) what if they all rise to follow their now dead but Great Other king? Jon was trying to understand his enemies what better way to do so than to become one of them ( but that's never happened before ' lol).

Sheer speculation of a crackpot.... And for the record this is NOT how I want things to go.

Two more thoughts:

--Varys riddle " power resides where men think it resides" if the north gains back their power they will NOT need the consent of the IT to make a king.

--Pretty sure there have been legitimate/ illegitimate succession issues throughout history ( Henry 8 comes to mind as well as Elizabeth 1) though I know there are better examples.... Of the king / queen having the ability to pick who follows them, though often if power fractions dont agree this leads to civil war... For instance wasn't Jeyne grey named heiress after Edward died then Mary supporters sent her to the block? And Henry had lots of issues with whether he should legitimize his daughter's... Which brings me back to power resides where people think it resides and if the north puts the will into power and has the power /desire to see it through then the devil take the hindmost!

[J. Stargaryen]

^ Not as crackpot as you might think. There are a few connections between Jon Snow and the concept of death.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

He had the Stark face if not the name.... whoever his mother had been she had left little of herself in her son.

[Starks Among Us]

He had the Stark face if not the name.... whoever his mother had been she had left little of herself in her son.

are you implying that his mother was not a Stark?

[J. Stargaryen]

are you implying that his mother was not a Stark?

It's a line from one of the books.

[Starks Among Us]

It's a line from one of the books.

I know, but as you posted only the quote, I wasn't sure what you were trying to say. I wasn't sure if you were implying that he was not Lyanna's as it is written that his mother didn't leave much of herself in him and that's the part you highlighted....

[J. Stargaryen]

I know, but as you posted only the quote, I wasn't sure what you were trying to say. I wasn't sure if you were implying that he was not Lyanna's as it is written that his mother didn't leave much of herself in him and that's the part you highlighted....

I'm not the one who posted the quote originally.

[Starks Among Us]

I'm not the one who posted the quote originally.

my bad! :blushing:

[J. Stargaryen]

my bad! :blushing:

I don't know if this is forgivable. Someone fetch me a block. :P

[Eira Seren]

In the first Jon chapter in AGOT (at the feast), Jon is talking to Benjen and notes that 'The queen is angry too. . . Father took the king down to the crypts this afternoon. The queen didn't want him to go." Benjen gave Jon a careful, measuring look. 'You don't miss much, do you, Jon?'

this is just something i noticed. it ties Jon to the crypts right away in the story, and it also gives Benjen pause. . . . maybe because he might wonder if Jon is on some level picking up on Cersei's jealousy over Lyanna (and possibly toward his mother).

On the next page, Jon talks about how his hero, the Young Dragon (Daeron Targaryen) was 14 when he conquered Dorne. In ACOK Mormont gives Jon a little history lesson on the Targaryens when discussing Aemon, "His father's father was Daeron Targaryen, the Second of His Name, who brought Dorne into the realm. Part of the pact was that he wed a Dornish princess. She gave him four sons. Aemon's father Maekar was the youngest of those, and Aemon was his third son." Plus some more. I think other people have already noted that the Old Bear seems to be giving Jon a quick education on his potential family history. followed at the end of the conversation by:

"King," croaked the raven. The bird flapped across the solar to land on Mormont's shoulder. "King," it said again, strutting back and forth.

"He likes that word," Jon said, smiling.

"An easy word to say. An easy word to like."

"King," the bird said again.

"I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord."

"The realm has three kings already, and that's two too many for my liking." Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow.

It made him feel odd. "My lord, why have you told me this, about Maester Aemon?"

"Must I have a reason?" Mormont shifted in his seat, frowning. "Your brother Robb has been crowned King in the North. You and Aemon have that in common. A king for a brother."

one could almost add. . . 'a prince for a father. . . ' really, I have to agree it is entirely possible that the king being alluded to here by the raven is Jon, and perhaps also Mormont knows. I love the line Jon says to Mormont, "i think he means for you to have a crown," when really Jon has got the wrong end of the stick!

and i can't *#$% find it right now, but in one of his chapters he's at the top of the wall, i believe, looking out, thinking of the Kingsroad that runs past Winterfell, through the 7 kingdoms, and all the way down to Dorne. So it could be that he's just having a boyish fantasy, thinking of himself as Daeron Targaryen, hero surveying his kingdom. But he might also be having that fantasy because it is foreshadowing, and a gesture to his heritage.

or also, possibly, because he perhaps subconsciously thinking of his birthplace. he really seems into Dorne. i think somewhere in that passage he AGAIN wonders who his mother is. the second time i read the series this really jumped out at me. now, though, i also see it connecting to the Daeron stuff.

Last thing, Jon takes up residence in Hardin's Tower, a building in ruins. we can only presume he spends his off time in there brooding in solitude. he seems drawn to it, so might be a possible allusion to another brooding young man who liked to hang out in the ruins of Summerhall.

[Duckfield]

I might have found another implication of Jon being the true king.

In Davos first or second chapter, Axell Florent tells him of a vision he saw in the flames:

"Ser Davos, it is good to see you, as ever," he said.

"And you, my lord."

I made note of you this morning as well. The false gods burned with a merry light, did they not?"

"They burned brightly." Davos did not trust this man, for all his courtesy. House Florent had declared for Renly.

The Lady Melisandre tells us that sometimes R'hllor permits his faithful servants to glimpse the future in flames. It seemed to me as I watched the fire this morning that I was looking at a dozen beautiful dancers, maidens garbed in yellow silk spinning and swirling before a great king. I think it was a true vision, ser. A glimpse of the glory that awaits His Grace after we take King's Landing and the throne that it is his by rights."

Later, in the last Jon chapter, when he and Qhorin are hiding in a cave:

The moon was rising behind one mountain and sun sinking behind another as Jon struck sparks from flint and dagger, until finally a wisp of smoke appeared. Qhorin came and stood over him as the first flame rose up flickering from the shavings of bark and dead dry, pine needles. "As shy as a maid on her wedding night," the big ranger said in a soft voice, "and near as fair. Sometimes a man forgets how pretty a fire can be."

...

Jon went to cut more branches, snapping each one in two before tossing it into the fire. The tree had been dead a long time, but it seemed to live again in the fire, as fiery dancers woke within each stick of wood to whirl and spin in their glowing gowns of yellow, red and orange.

"Enough," Qhorin said abruptly. "Now we ride."

It's widely said that Florent "saw what he wanted to see". But I think there's something to what he saw, he proved to be very loyal to Stannis and Mel even after they burn his brother Alester for the "treason" he did.

Any thoughts?

[J. Stargaryen]

This looks like a nice catch to me. I'm reminded that Rhaegar wore these colors during one of his tourneys - Lannisport, I think.

ETA: It was indeed a tourney held in Lannisport in 276AL. (not to be confused with the Lannisport tourney of 289AL to commemorate Robert's victory in the Greyjoy Rebellion.)

From AFfC; Cersei, ch. 24:

She was ten when she finally saw her prince in the flesh, at the tourney her lord father had thrown to welcome King Aerys to the west. Viewing stands had been raised beneath the walls of Lannisport, and the cheers of the smallfolk had echoed off Casterly Rock like rolling thunder. They cheered Father twice as loudly as they cheered the king, the queen recalled, but only half as loudly as they cheered Prince Rhaegar.

Seventeen and new to knighthood, Rhaegar Targaryen had worn black plate over golden ringmail when he cantered onto the lists. Long streamers of red and gold and orange silk had floated behind his helm, like flames. Two of her uncles fell before his lance, along with a dozen of her father’s finest jousters, the flower of the west. By night the prince played his silver harp and made her weep. When she had been presented to him, Cersei had almost drowned in the depths of his sad purple eyes. He has been wounded, she recalled thinking, but I will mend his hurt when we are wed. Next to Rhaegar, even her beautiful Jaime had seemed no more than a callow boy. The prince is going to be my husband, she had thought, giddy with excitement, and when the old king dies I’ll be the queen. Her aunt had confided that truth to her before the tourney. “You must be especially beautiful,” Lady Genna told her, fussing with her dress, “for at the final feast it shall be announced that you and Prince Rhaegar are betrothed.”

[Duckfield]

This looks like a nice catch to me. I'm reminded that Rhaegar wore these colors during one of his tourneys - Lannisport, I think.

ETA: It was indeed a tourney held in Lannisport in 276AL. (not to be confused with the Lannisport tourney of 289AL to commemorate Robert's victory in the Greyjoy Rebellion.)

From AFfC; Cersei, ch. 24:

That's interesting. I was also thinking it might have something to do with Stannis' new flaming heart sigil and fires in the Blackwater (symbolizing all his troops and bannermen burning)

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Of course; Jon is King of the North, most fits him based on this.

[The guy from the Vale]

Except Jon becomes KitN by mid-ASoS; the hints about Jon being King appear from early AGoT on, long before it becomes clear that there will ever be a KitN.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

"Ser Davos, it is good to see you, as ever," he said.

"And you, my lord."

I made note of you this morning as well. The false gods burned with a merry light, did they not?"

"They burned brightly." Davos did not trust this man, for all his courtesy. House Florent had declared for Renly.

The Lady Melisandre tells us that sometimes R'hllor permits his faithful servants to glimpse the future in flames. It seemed to me as I watched the fire this morning that I was looking at a dozen beautiful dancers, maidens garbed in yellow silk spinning and swirling before a great king. I think it was a true vision, ser. A glimpse of the glory that awaits His Grace after we take King's Landing and the throne that it is his by rights."

Considering how often the fire visions are turned on their heads, I think the Florent got a glimpse of Aegon on the Iron Throne (which i think will happen at least temporarily).

[Fire Eater]

"They say the king gives justice and protects the weak."

This is Gilly speaking to Jon.

ETA: Good catches, Duckfield and J. Stargaryen

[The guy from the Vale]

Kinda ironic that Gilly says this, considering Jon does her no justice... yes, on a larger level he is protecting an innocent baby from Mel, but still, Gilly is the collateral in this scenario.

[Fire Eater]

When Gilly entered, she went at once to her knees. Jon came around the table and drew her to her feet. "You don't need to kneel for me. That's just for kings."

If that's the case then kneeling to him was the appropriate gesture.

"Marriages and inheritances are matters for a king, my lady."

Jon says this to Alys Karstark, and later he brokers her marriage to Sigorn.

[tze]

He wants me gone, Catelyn thought wearily. Kings are not supposed to have mothers, it would seem, and I tell him things he does not want to hear.

Jon is the only candidate for Kingship who has no idea who his mother was.