A King in Hiding: Adding It All Up

[James Arryn]

Not really, English monarchs did name their heirs.

They did; it was often overlooked.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Pretty sure the North's independence ended when it was invaded by the Ironmen and the effective leadership of the rebellion murdered or held prisoner. Most of the Northern and Riverlands lords' have bent knee to the Iron Throne. Believing there is a kingdom for Jon to inherit is wishful thinking at best at this point. You can't recognize two kings of the same Kingdom. Even though it's called the "seven kingdoms" it's actually just one. Meaning there can be only one king. Most of the North is now choosing to recognize Tommen.

Rob's will is meaningless unless the North rises up again around another Stark.

I understand all of the hints about Jon's royalty in a different way. I don't think GRRM is indicating that Jon will be King and rule the North or the Seven Kingdoms or anything else, I think he's saying that Jon is King by blood, to fulfill all the mystical roles of a king, including that of the ultimate sacrifice to restore the land. I believe that when Stannis and Mel are in the North inventing royalty to sacrifice and hatch dragons, and Jon makes wry statements about "Mance being no more royal than I" or "where is she going to find these dragons," GRRM is giving the reader a wink and a nudge because the most royal person in Westeros, the trueborn King, for purposes of blood sacrifice, at any rate, is standing right in front of them in the guise of a black crow bastard. Wills, legitimacy, vows, and actual kingdoms be damned, Jon is king.

However I don't believe for a second that things will all come up blue roses for Jon. The bittersweet ending that GRRM is promising might come when Jon is revealed to be the Targaryen heir right before or right after he dies for real -- but he will be remembered forever because he gave his life to lift the darkness, blah blah blah, yadda yadda yadda . . . (C'mon, who out there believes, in their secret heart of hearts, that Jon is going to get out of this mess alive?).

In the short run, I think that Jon will get a technical pass out of the Night's Watch because he "died." That's a very unpopular opinion, I know, but this is a fantasy, the first cousin to a fairy tale, and technical passes, or downright trickery, are a staple of fairy tales. In addition GRRM has shown us throughout the series that really nice guys finish last (or finish first, as in die young, trying to do the right thing certainly didn't work for Jon) so giving Jon a "get out of jail free" card to leave the Night's Watch wouldn't be inconsistent with the story.

[With A Trebuchet]

This is obviously really vague, and I don't know about anyone else, but "You know nothing, Jon Snow" always seems like a hint to me, especially since his name is always included. Kind of like "you know nothing, not even your own true name". I always imagine it with emphasis on Snow.

[Ice Turtle]

This is obviously really vague, and I don't know about anyone else, but "You know nothing, Jon Snow" always seems like a hint to me, especially since his name is always included. Kind of like "you know nothing, not even your own true name". I always imagine it with emphasis on Snow.

Welcome on the forum. This is a good catch. I always felt the same.

[Fire Eater]

I'd like to thank MysteryNinja for this one:

and watched his direwolf devour the chicken.

Dogs moved between the tables, trailing after serving girls. One of them, a black mongrel bitch with yellow eyes, caught a scent of the chicken. She stopped and edged under the bench to get a share. Jon watched the confrontation. The bitch growled low in her throat and moved closer. Ghost looked up, silent, and fixed the dog with those hot red eyes. The bitch snapped an angry challenge. She was three times the size of the direwolf pup. Ghost did not move. He stood over his prize and opened his mouth, baring his fangs. The bitch tensed, barked again, then thought better of this fight. She turned and slunk away, with one last defiant snap to save her pride.

"Queen Cersei and Queen Margaery are fighting over the little king like two bitches with a chicken bone"

Cersei is a Baratheon by marriage so her colors are by tradition the Baratheon house colors: black and gold (yellow). She is called a bitch several times throughout AFfC and ADwD, with some people calling her "the bitch queen".

Jon will come to claim the throne that is being held by Cersei, and like the bitch, Cersei will know the war is lost for her, but will pull one last stunt before she dies to hollow out the victory for Jon's side, akin to when she planned to have Sansa killed at the BoBW if KL fell so that the Starks would take no joy in the Lannisters' fall. She will burn down KL just to protect her pride in defeat.

[Turkey Jack]

Like the first Daeron, he is more warrior than scholar. In an interesting, but not particularly meaningful parallel, Daeron I named his uncle Viserys as Hand of the King. Jon also has an Uncle Viserys (assuming R+L).

But Jon has another uncle who is potentially alive, could this be foreshadowing Benjen as Jons Hand?

edit

Taking it further there is a potential Targ uncle alive - Tyrion? so if history is repeating Tyrion could become Hand again, which would make a better fit than have Dany marry him.

[lady m]

I'd like to thank MysteryNinja for this one:

and watched his direwolf devour the chicken.

Dogs moved between the tables, trailing after serving girls. One of them, a black mongrel bitch with yellow eyes, caught a scent of the chicken. She stopped and edged under the bench to get a share. Jon watched the confrontation. The bitch growled low in her throat and moved closer. Ghost looked up, silent, and fixed the dog with those hot red eyes. The bitch snapped an angry challenge. She was three times the size of the direwolf pup. Ghost did not move. He stood over his prize and opened his mouth, baring his fangs. The bitch tensed, barked again, then thought better of this fight. She turned and slunk away, with one last defiant snap to save her pride.

"Queen Cersei and Queen Margaery are fighting over the little king like two bitches with a chicken bone"

Cersei is a Baratheon by marriage so her colors are by tradition the Baratheon house colors: black and gold (yellow). She is called a bitch several times throughout AFfC and ADwD, with some people calling her "the bitch queen".

Jon will come to claim the throne that is being held by Cersei, and like the bitch, Cersei will now the war is lost for her, but will pull one last stunt before she dies to hollow out the victory for Jon's side, like having Sansa killed if KL fell so that the Starks would take no joy in the Lannisters' fall. She will burn down KL just to protect her pride in defeat.

That's a super good one. I have to say I look forward to Cersei finding out Jon is Rhaegar's son and Ned his him from Robert all those years.

[Fire Eater]

Ned thinks about the ToJ where he found Jon: They had been seven against three yet only two lived to ride away.

This is a description of the scene of the ToJ with Baratheon men vs. Targaryen men, where the trio of KG are killed and only two are left standing from the seven fighters. During Robert's Rebellion, there were seven Targaryen heirs (Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon, Rhaenys, Viserys, Dany and Jon) and three Baratheon heirs (Robert, Stannis and Renly).

Of the Targaryen heirs at the time Ned has the dream, only two survived: Jon and Dany. One of two survivors from the ToJ, Ned, later dies in the series, this foreshadows the deaths of one of the two Targaryen heirs. It may be easy to point to Jon since he is the one most related to Ned and the Ides of Marsh, but I think Dany is the more likely candidate.

This also foreshadows the deaths of all the Baratheon brothers.

That's a super good one. I have to say I look forward to Cersei finding out Jon is Rhaegar's son and Ned his him from Robert all those years.

Thanks, and I think if/when Cersei finds out she may hate the Starks even more. Thinking they made her life miserable first when Lyanna went off with Rhaegar leading to Rhaegar getting killed and Cersei marrying Robert. Not to mention that Cersei wanted the attention of both Rhaegar and Robert, and ironically both of them seemed to prefer Lyanna.

[Harlaw's Book]

Thank you to the participants of the Jon Snow at the Crossroads of Resurrection Mythology thread especially Tze for her post comparing Theon and Jaime’s dreams to Jon’s because this post is inspired by that.

Every time I reread the dream Jaime has while sleeping on the weirwood stump, the more convinced I am that it’s connected to Jon’s Winterfell crypt dreams –especially the one that ends with Jon seeing the blood splattered direwolf –and that Jaime’s dream points to Jon as king.

First, I think the dream actually takes place in Winterfell because

• · The dream takes place in watery caverns. Winterfell is also built over a water source –the hot springs. Probably the biggest weakness in the theory that this is Winterfell is that the water in the dream is cold. However, right after Jaime notes the cold water, he becomes afraid that there may be creatures in the water. It reminds me Cotter Pyke’s “dead things in the water.” So if the creatures in the water are the Others that may be the cause of the cold water.
  
• · “There were watery caverns deep below Casterly Rock, but this one was strange to him. ‘What place is this?’” So Jaime is questioning where he is. And when he wakes he outright says “There is no place like that beneath the Rock.”
  
• · When Jaime encounters the Lannisters ghosts (mere fact there are Lannister ghosts present doesn’t automatically mean Jaime is in a Lannister place because the ghosts that show up later wouldn’t belong at Casterly Rock), they tell him that this is “Your place.” Cersei reiterates this and then leaves Jaime to the darkness. I think the implication from the separation between Jaime and the rest of the Lannisters is that Jaime’s place is not with House Lannister. And the reason for that is because Jaime is part the Kingsguard, which means his place is with the King. Since the king is having that foreshadows him being at Winterfell, Jaime’s place is at Winterfell.
  
• · When the Kingsguard and Rhaeghar show up, they don’t deny that this is Jaime’s place.
  

There are some other connections to Jon.

• · When Jaime meets up with Brienne, she asks whether there are bears, cave lions, or direwolves around. Jaime answers that there are no bears or cave lions, but there is Doom. The bear reference is probably a signal that the dream is not meant to be a depiction of what happens later in the chapter –saving Brienne from the bear. I am unsure whether cave lions are just lions –and thus the Lannister sigil – or if they are different the way direwolves are different from wolves. However, the absence of the cave lion suggests an absence of lions, which suggest an absence of Lannisters. My interpretation of Doom is that it’s the Others. Jon reveals the existence of the Others return. So in a way Jon brings the Others. Jaime doesn’t say that there no direwolves. This implies that there are direwolves. Jon in his dreams is surrounded by symbolic direwolves and an actual direwolf come out. And Jon is a direwolf himself because of his Stark mother and warging abilities.
  
• · When riders are heard, the first person Jaime thinks of is Ned Stark, but it turns out that the riders are Rhaeghar and Aery’s kingsguard. So what happens is that Jaime thinks it’s Ned when it turns out to be Rhaeghar, which is similar to everyone thinking Jon is Ned’s son when it turns out he is Rhaeghar son.
  
• · Jaime considers Rhaeghar the true heir to the Iron Throne, which means Jaime should consider Rhaeghar’s son the true heir as well.
  
• · Arthur Dayne says “we all swore oaths,” which is reminiscent of Hightower’s “we took a vow” line at the tower of joy
  
• · Rhaeghar appears to be the most upset about Jaime’s failure to protect his wife and kids, which would include Lyanna and Jon.
  
• · Jaime’s sword light goes out. In Jon’s dream, Jon notes a light went out somewhere.
  

[Ser Pollo Loco]

I'd like to thank MysteryNinja for this one:

and watched his direwolf devour the chicken.

Dogs moved between the tables, trailing after serving girls. One of them, a black mongrel bitch with yellow eyes, caught a scent of the chicken. She stopped and edged under the bench to get a share. Jon watched the confrontation. The bitch growled low in her throat and moved closer. Ghost looked up, silent, and fixed the dog with those hot red eyes. The bitch snapped an angry challenge. She was three times the size of the direwolf pup. Ghost did not move. He stood over his prize and opened his mouth, baring his fangs. The bitch tensed, barked again, then thought better of this fight. She turned and slunk away, with one last defiant snap to save her pride.

"Queen Cersei and Queen Margaery are fighting over the little king like two bitches with a chicken bone"

Cersei is a Baratheon by marriage so her colors are by tradition the Baratheon house colors: black and gold (yellow). She is called a bitch several times throughout AFfC and ADwD, with some people calling her "the bitch queen".

Jon will come to claim the throne that is being held by Cersei, and like the bitch, Cersei will know the war is lost for her, but will pull one last stunt before she dies to hollow out the victory for Jon's side, like having Sansa killed at the BoBW if KL fell so that the Starks would take no joy in the Lannisters' fall. She will burn down KL just to protect her pride in defeat.

Cersie dreams of a new castle built a few miles from kingslanding, the castle is all white, so there's full to this fire, but she still has to be chocked to death at some point so she probably won't die when she does it i guess

[Ribupr]

Probably a stupid question here......

Can Jon even be legitimized as a Stark?

Obviously he is not a Snow or a Stark, but a legitimate Targaryen. The question doesn't really matter regarding the story, but I was curious how that would work once he finds out who his parents are. Could he keep the Stark name? Would Winterfell now be a Targaryen castle (if Robb named him THE heir)?

Answers appreciated...

[mattah84]

I sort of agree with this. Rhaegar would of been King after Aerys. He definitely would of had superiority over both Viserys and Danaerys with regards to having a claim. That would mean that if he had children, his sons would have better claims to the throne then both Danaerys and Viserys as well. With Aegon being killed by Gregor in Kings Landing (if the aegon we have at Griffins Roost now is in fact a fake), then technically as crazy as it sounds, if Jon is Rhaegar's son, he could be considered next in line. It is the same as Petyr Baelish's explanation as to why Harry would be Heir to the Vale if Lord Robert died, and the same as Theon being the rightful King of the Iron Islands over Victarion and Euron.

I dont really think that Jon will be King in the end, but it would be kind of cool.

[lady m]

Probably a stupid question here......

Can Jon even be legitimized as a Stark?

Obviously he is not a Snow or a Stark, but a legitimate Targaryen. The question doesn't really matter regarding the story, but I was curious how that would work once he finds out who his parents are. Could he keep the Stark name? Would Winterfell now be a Targaryen castle (if Robb named him THE heir)?

Answers appreciated...

Jon's legal status as of Robb writing his will was as Eddard Stark's natural son/acknowledged bastard. From that he can become a legitimized Stark. I've assumed it would be a two step process. But the rest of it should be attempted by those that have done more pondering of this than I.

[FrozenFire3]

More than a King in hiding the following is about a Targaryen in hiding (according to the metaphorical triad Targaryen/dragon/fire):

ASoS, Samwell II

"Snow."

Sam glanced up at the sound. Lord Commander Mormont's raven was circling the fire, beating the air with wide black wings. (ed. same as Drogon in ADwD during Dany's first flight)

"Snow," the bird cawed. "Snow, snow."

[Grand Moff Mithrandir]

I don't know why, but I still can't get over this passage from AGoT

I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were

dragonfire. Sometimes I’d imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister.” Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. “Don’t look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You’ve dreamt the same kind of dreams.” “No,” Jon Snow said, horrified. “I wouldn’t...” “No? Never?” Tyrion raised an eyebrow.

GRRM works in mysterious ways :fencing:

[Fire Eater]

Greatjon Umber:

Why shouldn't we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead!

It was a dragon Lyanna Stark married, and her son, a dragon, is still alive.

[bbstark]

Ned thinks about the ToJ where he found Jon: They had been seven against three yet only two lived to ride away.

This is a description of the scene of the ToJ with Baratheon men vs. Targaryen men, where the trio of KG are killed and only two are left standing from the seven fighters. During Robert's Rebellion, there were seven Targaryen heirs (Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon, Rhaenys, Viserys, Dany and Jon) and three Baratheon heirs (Robert, Stannis and Renly).

Of the Targaryen heirs at the time Ned has the dream, only two survived: Jon and Dany. One of two survivors from the ToJ, Ned, later dies in the series, this foreshadows the deaths of one of the two Targaryen heirs. It may be easy to point to Jon since he is the one most related to Ned and the Ides of Marsh, but I think Dany is the more likely candidate.

This also foreshadows the deaths of all the Baratheon brothers.

wow, nice catch! I would have never noticed this!! I suppose it also points to "Aegon is fake".

Martin leaves me speechless, as usual :)

[Scarlet Seastar]

Ned thinks about the ToJ where he found Jon: They had been seven against three yet only two lived to ride away.

This is a description of the scene of the ToJ with Baratheon men vs. Targaryen men, where the trio of KG are killed and only two are left standing from the seven fighters. During Robert's Rebellion, there were seven Targaryen heirs (Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon, Rhaenys, Viserys, Dany and Jon) and three Baratheon heirs (Robert, Stannis and Renly).

Of the Targaryen heirs at the time Ned has the dream, only two survived: Jon and Dany. One of two survivors from the ToJ, Ned, later dies in the series, this foreshadows the deaths of one of the two Targaryen heirs. It may be easy to point to Jon since he is the one most related to Ned and the Ides of Marsh, but I think Dany is the more likely candidate.

This also foreshadows the deaths of all the Baratheon brothers.

I think Ned's death is not just foreshadowing for the death of Dany or Jon, because

"yet only two lived to ride away" could mean anything, if you think about it. It is not specified in wording [i am not implying that one of the KG might still be alive] that two of Ned's party survived, just that two of the fighters survived. So, if we take Ned's party to represent the Targs, and the three KG to represent the three Baratheon brothers, the words say, only two. Considering that Robert and Renly are dead, the candidates left are Jon, Dany and Stannis.

[TheRainingKnight]

If Robb wouldn't have legitimized Jon, the King of the North title, and the title of Winterfell would have gone to another house in succession. For in this instance to Tyrion of House Lannister. He married Sansa Stark , and also the claim to Winterfell.

[Where is Rickon]

I don't understand why so many people think that Jon has zero chance of escaping the NW. 1) Maester Aemon was offered to become a king 3 times, at least once when he was at the Wall. He refused, not because he thought that he had zero chance to break the NW vows, but because he took those vows seriously. 2) Robb named Jon his heir and has other lords witness his will. I would not think he would do it if there was zero chance for Jon to leave the Wall. 3) Staniss offered Jon The Lord of WF title. Jon refused, but because he would have to denounce the old gods and because he thought WF was rightfully Sansa's. iirc, he did not think that it was impossible due to the NW oath.