A King in Hiding: Adding It All Up

[Where is Rickon]

Maester Aemon was offered to become a king 3 times, at least once when he was at the Wall.

I just had a thought - maybe it's foreshadowing that Jon will be offered the crown three times,but will refuse it.

[lady m]

If Robb wouldn't have legitimized Jon, the King of the North title, and the title of Winterfell would have gone to another house in succession. For in this instance to Tyrion of House Lannister. He married Sansa Stark , and also the claim to Winterfell.

The will also disinherits Sansa. And we're she not disinherited Winterfell would go to Sansa and her trueborn issue, Tyrion has no claim to Winterfell.

[Fire Eater]

I don't understand why so many people think that Jon has zero chance of escaping the NW. 1) Maester Aemon was offered to become a king 3 times, at least once when he was at the Wall. He refused, not because he thought that he had zero chance to break the NW vows, but because he took those vows seriously. 2) Robb named Jon his heir and has other lords witness his will. I would not think he would do it if there was zero chance for Jon to leave the Wall. 3) Staniss offered Jon The Lord of WF title. Jon refused, but because he would have to denounce the old gods and because he thought WF was rightfully Sansa's. iirc, he did not think that it was impossible due to the NW oath.

Aemon wasn't offered to become king three times, but he was tempted to leave the NW to help his family three times.

[Where is Rickon]

Ok. My point still stands.

[lady m]

Ok. My point still stands.

Aemon says, however, that had he been young and able bodied things could well have been different. Which might foreshadow Jon choosing a different path from Aemon, since he is young and able bodied. In fact the murder of Aegon and Rhaenys was the most egregious to Aemon and the one he regrets not being able to do anything about. If Jon finds out Bran and Rickon are alive, but there's no one to fight for them, that might be the trigger to go the other direction.

[Toshio.Keepiru]

Look, we know Jon will never keep Winterfell from a trueborn son of Eddard. So at best Jon will occupy the Northern Throne for a limited time, before either dying (I hope not, but very likely), or moving on to take the Iron Throne instead - Eúron's plan with Victarrion is the foreshadowing in that Euron is willing to give the Seastone Chair to Victarrion while he himself then moves onto take the Iron Throne, or else Jon might abdicate in the end and live a simple life at the Wall.

I think Jon dies but not in the South, in my mind he's in the North fighting the Other's and sacrifices himself in a way that makes it possible to end their threat to the Lands south of the Wall.

Of course we don't know what happens before then but the Val is Jon's Queen and Did Jon steal Val threads provide some tantalizing ideas.

[WesterosGypsy]

What about Edric Storm or even Gendry? Bastards have been legitimized before.... And this is something that the Lannisters have obviously been worried about or they wouldn't have gone to such lengths to try to get rid of them both. Would Robert's bastards have come before Stannis?

[Winterfellian]

What about Edric Storm or even Gendry? Bastards have been legitimized before.... And this is something that the Lannisters have obviously been worried about or they wouldn't have gone to such lengths to try to get rid of them both. Would Robert's bastards have come before Stannis?

With the exception of Edric Storm none of Robert's bastards were acknowledge by Robert and not one of them was legitimized so politically they don't have much weight. Anyway, none of them presented a problem for Stannis or the Lannisters in terms of claiming to the throne. Cersei's decision to get rid of them has more to do with her hatred for Robert and their physical resemblance to Robert (in contrast with Cersei's Lannister colored children) than being worried about any potential claim from either of them.

[FittleLinger]

What about Edric Storm or even Gendry? Bastards have been legitimized before.... And this is something that the Lannisters have obviously been worried about or they wouldn't have gone to such lengths to try to get rid of them both. Would Robert's bastards have come before Stannis?

No. But if legitimized, they will come before Joff, Tommen and Myrcela, since they are not Baratheons at all. And if the king suspects his kids are not actually his, he has every reason to legitimize a bastard to ensure a heir.

[WesterosGypsy]

With the exception of Edric Storm none of Robert's bastards were acknowledge by Robert and not one of them was legitimized so politically they don't have much weight. Anyway, none of them presented a problem for Stannis or the Lannisters in terms of claiming to the throne. Cersei's decision to get rid of them has more to do with her hatred for Robert and their physical resemblance to Robert (in contrast with Cersei's Lannister colored children) than being worried about any potential claim from either of them.

I disagree. She had Jon Arryn killed because he was looking into the physical characteristics of Robert's bastards to prove that Cersei's children were not Baratheons. Stannis is banking his claim on proving her children illegitimate. So far, Stannis doesn't know about Gendry. But Stannis was considering allowing Melisandre to sacrifice Edric which would have removed any claim from him. Davos is the one who intervened and had Edric stolen away to the Free Cities.

[Winterfellian]

I disagree. She had Jon Arryn killed because he was looking into the physical characteristics of Robert's bastards to prove that Cersei's children were not Baratheons. Stannis is banking his claim on proving her children illegitimate. So far, Stannis doesn't know about Gendry. But Stannis was considering allowing Melisandre to sacrifice Edric which would have removed any claim from him. Davos is the one who intervened and had Edric stolen away to the Free Cities.

Mmmm...something tells me that you could benefit from a reread. And I mean this as a friendly advice.

Cersei didn't killed Jon Arryn. She said as much to Tyrion in ACOK. Lysa was the one who killed Jon Arryn at LF's instructions. Cersei was probably more than rejoiced at his timely and more than convenient death but she didn't play a direct part in it.

Stannis was considering allowing for Edric's death, but not because he saw him as a political rival but because Melissandre was doing all in her power to convince him about the powers of King's blood and how it was needed to wake dragons out of stone, like with her stunt with the leeches. What's more the reason Stannis wanted Edric in the first place was to prove through his Baratheon looks that Cersei's kids were not Robert's. At no point does Stannis consider Edric as a threat to his own claim to the IT.

And even if Stannis doesn't know about Gendry, as an unrecognized and not legitimized bastard, Gendry's political importance is next to nothing. His importance in all this might rely in his Bratheon looks as a way to discredit Tommen's and Myrcella's parentage.

[MasterJack]

I didnt read all 18pages but i ll add something: somewhere in the books, melissandre i think, sees Jon as a man, then a wolf, then a man again. Lot of ppl thinks he will warg his wolf and regain a human body later, but it could mean: Jon the NW man, then Jon the Stark (wolf), then Jon the targ (or his own new house).

sorry my english is so bad.

[Ghost's Shadow]

It's probably been mentioned before (If I can see it, anyone can :P ), but I liked these two from aGoT:

“I ordered a watch kept over you., You were seen leaving. If your brothers had not fetched you back, you would have been taken along the way, and not by friends. Unless you have a horse with wings like a raven. Do you?”

“No.” Jon felt like a fool.

“Pity, we could use a horse like that.”

A winged horse could be a dragon (aren't they around that size now?), and if he had one of those it would be because of his dragon blood (so he's a prince or king).

The dragons might be used at the Wall (if they can deal with that kind of weather).

I'll add the next one because it's very near the other one (might be more foreshadowing):

“Your father is dead, lad. Do you think you can bring him back?”

“No,” he answered, sullen.

“Good,” Mormont said. “We’ve seen the dead come back, you and me, and it’s not something I care to see again.” He ate the egg in two bites and flicked a bit of shell out from between his teeth. “Your brother is in the field with all the power of the north behind him. Any one of his lords bannermen commands more swords than you’ll find in all the Night’s Watch. Why do you imagine that they need your help? Are you such a mighty warrior, or do you carry a grumkin in your pocket to magic up your sword?”

Magic sword = Lightbringer, so Jon could be tPwwP, which Rhaegar thought either he or a son of his was.

[J. Stargaryen]

It's probably been mentioned before (If I can see it, anyone can :P ), but I liked these two from aGoT:

A winged horse could be a dragon (aren't they around that size now?), and if he had one of those it would be because of his dragon blood (so he's a prince or king).

The dragons might be used at the Wall (if they can deal with that kind of weather).

I'll add the next one because it's very near the other one (might be more foreshadowing):

Magic sword = Lightbringer, so Jon could be tPwwP, which Rhaegar thought either he or a son of his was.

A winged horse is the personal sigil of Aegor "Bittersteel" Rivers.

[Fire Eater]

Kevan Lannister could feel it [the Iron Throne] at his back, an itch between the shoulder blades.

When the third dagger took him [Jon] between the shoulder blades

Foreshadowing that Jon will sit the IT.

[stu1987]

I don't believe Jon will become King, purely because he doesn't want to. All of the other claimants have a desire, and an army, to back them up. I like Jon Snow miserable and cold. King in the North, King of Winter perhaps, but I don't think the IT, it's such a huge departure from his story arc. However, I do believe he would be a better king than Dany/Stannis/Tommen etc. The last 18 pages of this discussion have proved that JS > DT.

[lady m]

I don't believe Jon will become King, purely because he doesn't want to. All of the other claimants have a desire, and an army, to back them up. I like Jon Snow miserable and cold. King in the North, King of Winter perhaps, but I don't think the IT, it's such a huge departure from his story arc. However, I do believe he would be a better king than Dany/Stannis/Tommen etc. The last 18 pages of this discussion have proved that JS > DT.

Actually, there are two logical conclusions to Jon's story arc: dying, or getting stuck with a throne he doesn't want. Jon didn't want to be LC, he took it anyway. There aren't going to be a lot of live throne claimants at the end of the war effort Jon will lead. Lots more people are going to die, Cersei's kids, Stannis, and probably Aegon, and I think even Dany, or she will go back to Essos if GRRM wants to give her a happy ending. Jon on the other hand will lead humanities fight for survival, because that is his duty and job as LC, even if he is no longer LC that's not a burden he can shirk. The person who most logically becomes king at the end of that war, if he survives, is the person leading that effort, him being revealed as the scion of Houses Stark & Targaryen only reinforces that he was the person who was always to lead that effort.

Fire Eater, some of the tidbits you've found are fascinating.

[Kinginthenorth1]

Hey, fist time poster but really interested in this debate.

I still cant understand why people seem to want Jon to become King: surely the point of his storyline so far is that there are things more important than who sits what throne. So much has been made of his vows that breaking them (more than he already has) would make him unworthy of any throne he tries to sit. Jon being the story's hero and taking the throne are not compatible options for GRRM.

Yes, there may be a lot of indicators that he could or might become a king, he may end up heir to the north, he's probably a targ, etc. but all of these possibilities are things he has to discover about himself and then decline if he's going to keep the integrity necessary to any potential 'hero' character in ASoiaF,given its particular moral texture (thanks, Ned). Its my belief that these narrative possibilities are there and even anticipated in order to give more worth to his eventual choice to stay at his post and keep his vows (which would be even more poignant after what happens at the and of ADWD).

As a slightly different addendum, I don't think Jon is the LC people here seem to think he cracked up to be, and I doubt he'd even make a good king. The dude didn't exactly end up being particularly popular with his brothers, getting stabbed by your men might be an indicator that you're not a very good leader, regardless of whether your chices were actually right or not. He always seems aware of the fact that he's ostracising his brothers with every decision he makes, but never seems to give that much of a damn.

[Lady Arya's Song]

Here is a punctuation clue given by GRRM that I have not seen anyone post. I normally listen to the series and Roy Dotrice does not give the proper inflection when he reads these lines so I did not discover this clue until I actually was reading the book.

The clue is found in ACoK Jon1 pg.79

Mormont is talking to Jon about the differences between Jon's future and Robb's future now that he has been declared king. See below

Mormant says: "You'll have no wife, nor will you ever hold a child of your own blood in your arms. Robb will rule, you will serve. Men will call you a crow. Him they'll call Your Grace. Singers will praise every little thing he does, while your greatest deeds all go unsung. Tell me that none of this troubles you, Jon ......and I'll name you a liar, and know that I have the truth of it."

Jon drew himself up, taut as a bowstring, "And if it did trouble me, what might I do, bastard as I am?" (What does being a bastard have to do with what Jon might contemplate doing?)

Mormont's reply: " What will you do?" Mormont asked. "Bastard as you are?" (Why does Martin write Mormont's response with a question as to Jon's bastardy???

I believe George wrote these two lines this way with the question marks as to a hint that Jon Snow is NOT a bastard.

[bemused]

Kinginthenorth 1 ...

Whether or not he's broken his vows is a moot point. How much weight should be given to what part of his vows, and why... is a moot point.

Apart from the handful of conspirators , there's nothing to say that he was particularly disliked among his brothers . E.g. , he certainly wasn't disliked among the rangers. As for the rest , there may have been no more than the usual grumbling that Mormont warned him was a LC's lot... The men will always find something to complain about , no matter what the LC does.

And getting stabbed by a few of his men may very likely mean that they're ( multiple choice ) evil, misguided , backward thinking , bigoted, being coerced, stupid and gullible , harboring a personal grudge , or any number of / all of the above... therefore , not a valid reflection of Jon's suitability to rule.

Ostracize - to expel or banish from society , to exclude from a group by common consent.

Jon has not ostracized any of his brothers. In fact , he's gone out of his way to be inclusive. On the contrary , people like Thorne , Slynt and Marsh have gone to great lengths to try to have Jon ostracized.

Lady Arya's Song... :) That could very well be. Another subtle clue.