A King in Hiding: Adding It All Up

[Ingelheim]

I was familiar with this foreshadowing list, but I missed the Robert's one. Jon is the main hero, IMO, but I don't think he'll become the King. Even the King of the North, I don't see him like that.

[65536ob]

If Robb explicitly named Jon his heir, then Jon is his heir.

then that would make the entire line of succession thing completely pointless

[Harlaw's Book]

Stannis asking Jon whether Ned taught him that kings should be open handed to their followers. Actually Jon has received a lot of lessons in kingship, and I think this ties into Varys thinking that education makes Aegon a king.

Also in ADWD, Jon accomplishes or begins to accomplish a lot of Robb's objectives.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

then that would make the entire line of succession thing completely pointless

I'm just explaining how it works. Technically, a king could name pretty much whoever he wanted to; it's just that normally, it goes to the oldest son or the next-oldest brother. If Robb, believing that Bran and Rickon were actually dead, said, "I hereby legitimize Jon Snow and name him my heir," then that's what goes. Why would he make considerations in his will for people he thought were dead? That doesn't make any sense. And there are other discussions about this and how evidence suggests that the northmen are getting ready to back Jon.

[Arya Targaryen]

I love that Robert comment, I missed it totally. Great thread, Apple Martini! :cheers:

(With all these comments people invested in hundreds of threads about how/why Jon will ever become a King, I really hope he indeed does.)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I love that Robert comment, I missed it totally. Great thread, Apple Martini! :cheers:

(With all these comments people invested in hundreds of threads about how/why Jon will ever become a King, I really hope he indeed does.)

I hope that if he does, it's because he earned it by, like, saving the world or something. Not because someone finds out who his parents were and then sticks a crown on his head. You know? And I think that a lot of this subtext can be read to not only mean that Jon is a literal king, but also of a kingly mettle and personal character. He is a "king," but he is also a KING.

What's that line from Tywin? "Anyone who has to say that he's a king is not a king"? Something to that effect. Jon is showing that he is worthy of being a king without actually claiming as such. No mile-long string of titles or excess opulence or whatever.

[FittleLinger]

Yes, a king can name whoever he wants as a heir. Usually it's the next in succession because it's best for the family and realm, but if he wanted, he could name the stable boy.

Of course, in such a case, other claimants will arise and say they have better claims, and most likely a succession war will emerge, but the king won't have done anything "illegal" by naming the stable boy.

[The guy from the Vale]

“Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes,”

Jon about why he isn't allowed to train with Joffrey.

That one comes shortly after Jon noted, during the feast, that it's unseemly for a bastard to sit at the king's table. Of course, Joffrey is a bastard - and he doesn't sit at Jon's table ;)

[Arya Targaryen]

That one comes shortly after Jon noted, during the feast, that it's unseemly for a bastard to sit at the king's table. Of course, Joffrey is a bastard - and he doesn't sit at Jon's table ;)

LOL :bowdown:

I hope that if he does, it's because he earned it by, like, saving the world or something. Not because someone finds out who his parents were and then sticks a crown on his head. You know? And I think that a lot of this subtext can be read to not only mean that Jon is a literal king, but also of a kingly mettle and personal character. He is a "king," but he is also a KING.

What's that line from Tywin? "Anyone who has to say that he's a king is not a king"? Something to that effect. Jon is showing that he is worthy of being a king without actually claiming as such. No mile-long string of titles or excess opulence or whatever.

I can see Jon becoming King on the IT (not that I want that to happen, I prefer him being the KitN) as a compromise candidate, just like he became LC. The North declared independence, so they won't care, but maybe there will be two southron houses who want the throne, but can't agree, but they would both accept Jon. That would be a nice symmetry.

[Black Wolf Smith]

But how do they remove Rickon from the order?

Also if Robb as King legitimized Jon, wouldn't that make Jon, Rickon's Elder brother, first in succession?

Robb and everyone thinks Bran and Rickon are dead. Robb makes Jon legit to stop the Lannister or anybody else from using Sansa and Arya to take control of the North. There isn't a question of who would be first. Robb did not just remove Rickon, he made it so that Jon is the only one in line of the throne, there wasn't a quesion in Robb's mind that either of his other brothers would "come back from the dead".

[Lion of Judah]

I like this observation a lot.

[Dolorous Nedd]

There is something about Melisandre looking for Stannis and seeing nothing but Snow. Capital "S".

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

There is something about Melisandre looking for Stannis and seeing nothing but Snow. Capital "S".

Yes, but that has more to do with the Azor Ahai thing. I'm looking for thematic textual evidence that Jon is actually a/the king.

[The guy from the Vale]

Yes, but that has more to do with the Azor Ahai thing. I'm looking for thematic textual evidence that Jon is actually a/the king.

Yes, that too. But note that Mel is also asking R'hllor to show her "[his] king"

[Dolorous Nedd]

Yes, that too. But note that Mel is also asking R'hllor to show her "[his] king"

Thanks! I forgot to make that connection in the post.

[Pugsley]

I'm not trying to be a killjoy, since I really love these kinds of Easter eggs, but in context he's talking about the common people hiding under snow, not kings. I don't know, it just seems like a bit of a stretch to me. I do love the "second life fit for a king" one, though. :)

Robert snorted. "Bogs and forests and fields, and scarcely a decent inn north of the Neck. I've never seen such a vast emptiness. Where are all your people?"

"Likely they were too shy to come out," Ned jested. He could feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth. "Kings are a rare sight in the north."

Robert snorted. "More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!"

[Techelles]

I'm not trying to be a killjoy, since I really love these kinds of Easter eggs, but in context he's talking about the common people hiding under snow, not kings. I don't know, it just seems like a bit of a stretch to me. I do love the "second life fit for a king" one, though. :)

I don't think this undoes the tie-in with Jon Snow. It just makes it more difficult to see, because it requires interpreting the exchange in a way that is not obvious.

Sure, we know what Ned and Bob are talking about. But what is GRRM talking about?

[Ducks in a Field]

To expand further and tie in "king" to "hero," we also have Sansa wishing for a hero to chop off Janos Slynt's head. Jon eventually does the deed — is that an obtuse way of saying that Jon is "a" hero, perhaps even "the" hero?

The literal meaning of hero was "Blood of the gods". The Targaryen's blood of old Valaryia has been refered to as the blood of the gods (iirc). If Jon is Rheagar's son this could be a more literal hint.

[Pugsley]

I just think that snow and kings need to be tied together in context in order for there to be any foreshadowing tied to it. Otherwise, what's to stop people from saying OMG JON every time 'snow' and 'king' appear in the same paragraph? It becomes too much of a slippery slope. People could find allusions to anything they wanted to that way.

[Sevumar]

We're given a tie-in between Jon and the Targaryens early on in the series, when he tells Benjen that one of his heroes (the only one ever mentioned by name) is Daeron I, the Young Dragon who conquered Dorne at 14. In that same conversation, Benjen points out the folly of Daeron's actions and the 60,000 troops lost in the taking and holding of Dorne for four years. He reminds Jon that Daeron died at the age of 18 during an uprising against his rulership of Dorne.

By the end of Dance, Jon has both risen to a leadership position at a young age and seems very close to death at the hands of rebellious people nominally under his rule. He is not quite 18 at the time, but fairly close in age to Daeron I at the time of his death.

Like the first Daeron, he is more warrior than scholar. In an interesting, but not particularly meaningful parallel, Daeron I named his uncle Viserys as Hand of the King. Jon also has an Uncle Viserys (assuming R+L).

Two Daeron Targaryens reigned in Westeros, and there are similarities between Daeron II and Jon as well. Daeron II is remembered as a good leader who brought the Martells and Dorne into the Seven Kingdoms through his marriage to Myriah Martell. Likewise, Jon presides over the only addition of a new people, the Wildlings, to the society of Westeros. They are the first meaningful addition since the time of Daeron the Good.

Daeron II's embrace of Dorne and the very Dornish flavor of the court makes him unpopular with the traditionalists among the rest of the Seven Kingdoms. This grudge becomes one of the causes of the Blackfyre Rebellions, driving those traditionalists into the arms of Daemon Blackfyre. During his tenure as Lord Commander, Jon faces many of these same issues, as his acceptance of the Wildlings and his willingness to treat them as people and allies instead of as traditional enemies of the Watch earns him the ire of the traditionalists among the black brothers. The division runs deep, and the traditionalists, led by Bowen Marsh, try to remove Jon from power.

Daeron II relied on his half-brother Bloodraven heavily during the Blackfyre Rebellion and Bloodraven's efforts mark the turning point in the war. It looks like events in the books are once again pointing toward Bloodraven and Bran playing a key role in the coming war against the others. Just as Bloodraven was a brother to Daeron II, Bran is presented as Jon's half-brother.

Martin makes a point of describing the allegations against Daeron II as a bastard produced by the affair of Queen Naerys and Aemon the Dragonknight. These rumors are used by Blackfyre allies to discredit Daeron and to portray him as a usurper. Jon's public status as a bastard is also used as a weapon against him by his detractors.

Dorne plays a key role in the stories of both Daeron Targaryens who reigned as kings in Westeros, and it is also Jon's birthplace.

I've suggested that, given the early mention of Daeron I by Jon and the parallels between their ages during their rapid rises and falls, if Jon has a "secret Targaryen name," it may in fact be Daeron.