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NFL 2012 Superbowl Prelude: Gods Must Be Strong


Sivin

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So, this is like the Jeff George argument?

No, Jeff George never demonstrated the ability to read NFL defenses. If it were a purely physical argument, that would have gone to Jamarcus Russell. If you put either of those players on a team with a great Oline such as the Patriots or 49rs, they would still struggle with getting the ball out and with completions.

Jay Cutler is playing behind one of the worst offensive lines in the league with one NFL receiver, no TE and a bunch of guys that would be riding the bench on most teams and he is still able to be productive. He does more with what he has than anyone in the league.

I know that what I am saying sounds crazy, but I firmly believe the difference in Cutler and Rodgers is the level of talent that surround them. If their positions were reversed, we would hold their value in reverse as well.

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No, Jeff George never demonstrated the ability to read NFL defenses. If it were a purely physical argument, that would have gone to Jamarcus Russell. If you put either of those players on a team with a great Oline such as the Patriots or 49rs, they would still struggle with getting the ball out and with completions.

Jay Cutler is playing behind one of the worst offensive lines in the league with one NFL receiver, no TE and a bunch of guys that would be riding the bench on most teams and he is still able to be productive. He does more with what he has than anyone in the league.

I know that what I am saying sounds crazy, but I firmly believe the difference in Cutler and Rodgers is the level of talent that surround them. If their positions were reversed, we would hold their value in reverse as well.

I think you underrate George, who may be the best thrower I have ever seen. Pure arm strength Russell might top him,p but combine a rocket (top 3 or 4 ever) with exceptional touch, precision, etc. I agree, reads and attitude were his issues, but I think many say the same about Cutler.

Statistically, he had better years than Cutler ever has, and it's not like he was surrounded by Pro Bowlers, either.

BTW, not a cheap sot, as I sincerely don't know, but are you a Bears or left over Broncos fan?

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Beware Patriot wives after a loss! http://www.usatoday.com/story/gameon/2013/01/21/nfl-wes-welker-wife-rips-ray-lewis/1851907/

"Proud of my husband and the Pats," Burns Welker wrote. "By the way, if anyone is bored, please go to Ray Lewis' Wikipedia page. 6 kids, 4 wives. Acquitted for murder. Paid a family off. Yay. What a hall of fame player! A true role model!"

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Rodgers is on a team w/ an almost non-existent running game and an o-line that is pretty so-so in the pass protection.

Not to mention a terrible defense (at least for the past two seasons). I'm not saying the Bears are stacked with talent, but they are pretty good in a lot of areas. If you say that the reason that Rodgers and several other quarterbacks have succeeded so much more than Cutler since arriving at Chicago is entirely due to lack of talent...it just doesn't add up.

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Brees elite, eli not.

You dont have to count playoff wins or superbowls to call manning, brees, rodgersand brady the elite. You can see it in every game the play. The wins just bolster their tally. brady has done more than romo in the regular season alon3, etc.

And while I lovethe cutler enthusiasm, if I was starting an nfl team now, I would take rodgers in a micro second. Hes better and younger than tne other 3 true elites. After 2011, I would have taken cutler 5th hands down. Right now, the best of tbe nonelite is a debate with many possible answers.

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Not to mention a terrible defense (at least for the past two seasons). I'm not saying the Bears are stacked with talent, but they are pretty good in a lot of areas. If you say that the reason that Rodgers and several other quarterbacks have succeeded so much more than Cutler since arriving at Chicago is entirely due to lack of talent...it just doesn't add up.

Eh, 7-1 and looking like a top5 (number one imo)team this year preinjury. 7-3 and looking like a top5 team last year preinjury

Hes done fine

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Not to mention a terrible defense (at least for the past two seasons). I'm not saying the Bears are stacked with talent, but they are pretty good in a lot of areas. If you say that the reason that Rodgers and several other quarterbacks have succeeded so much more than Cutler since arriving at Chicago is entirely due to lack of talent...it just doesn't add up.

Rodgers has been playing with the best receiving corps in football and an Oline that is middle of the road.

Jay Cutler has been playing behind possibly the worst Oline in the league, and has had one NFL caliber receiver to throw the ball to in four years.

Cutler has been in a far more complicated spot as far as measuring QB stats goes.

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Jay Cutler has been playing behind possibly the worst Oline in the league, and has had one NFL caliber receiver to throw the ball to in four years.

Cutler has been in a far more complicated spot as far as measuring QB stats goes.

Sure - but he certainly hasn't elevated that team's game much, has he? That's the real issue I see. Rodgers didn't always have these weapons. Brady didn't either. The receivers in New Orleans were nothing to write home about before Brees got there. Cutler has one of the best RBs in the league, a great receiver and a couple of decent ones. There aren't many teams that have it much better and plenty who have worse - and they still do okay.

Compare, for instance, to RG3 - he has Pierre Garcon, Alfred Morris and a fairly sketchy line. He's still more accurate, more poised, and less prone to fuckupery than Cutler.

I think Cutler can be a very good QB. If he had a better line that would help tremendously. But it's not just about the line with him; half of the sacks he took were well over 3 seconds, which basically means they were his fault. His mechanics are still horrible. He still makes gutwrenchingly bad decisions here and there. That doesn't make him hideously bad, but it does mean that he is not the best out there.

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I don't know how you can possibly evaluate Jay Cutler as being ahead of Aaron Rodgers. When Rodgers had a defense, he won the Super Bowl. And the past two years without one, he has still put up dramatically better numbers than Cutler across the board. He is far ahead in touchdowns, interceptions, wins, passer rating, really any metric you want to use, and all with a noticeably worse defense than the Bears have. What are you seeing that could possibly put Cutler ahead in this comparison?

I certainly don't believe Cutler to be better than Rodgers, but IMO Cutler has to deal with having the worst O-line of any of the QBs under discussion regarding being elite. Seriously, too often that O-line looks like Swiss cheese and leaves Cutler running for his life. If he had a better O-line in front of him, one that could give him time in the pocket and prevent him being injured season after seaon, the Bears would be doing much better as a team. Cutler would be able to hone his skills and deal with his weaknesses; instead in the back of his mind he has to wonder play after play if his O-line is going to break down yet again. That has to have taken a toll on his decision-making after several seasons.

As for who is elite, to me an elite QB is one who's reliably great (Peyton, Rodgers, Brady, Brees) instead of just inconsistently great (like Eli Manning and Joe Flacco). Yes, even elite QBs will have the occasional crappy game, but then most of the time they come back the next week and score several touchdowns. They're the QBs who can put up 10+ wins season after season, whose teams are seemingly perennial playoffs/Superbowl contenders. And when the big playoff games arrive, they perform. They can certainly be defeated during those games - after all, in the end there can be only one QB left standing with the Lombardi in his hands - but the other team knows it's been in a fight.

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And while I lovethe cutler enthusiasm, if I was starting an nfl team now, I would take rodgers in a micro second. Hes better and younger than tne other 3 true elites. After 2011, I would have taken cutler 5th hands down. Right now, the best of tbe nonelite is a debate with many possible answers.

I agree, Rodgers is the obviously correct choice. If I could get some guarantee that Griffin could stay healthy (something like an average of Brady, Manning, Brees, who have all missed significant time at some point in their career) then I would take Griffin over Rodgers. But I'm a Griffin homer, and no such guarantee exists, so the point is moot.

Rodgers has been playing with the best receiving corps in football

You've got to be kidding me. They're good. But not any better than what the Lions, or Ravens, or Cowboys or Falcons or Giants or other teams I'm forgetting can field.

Eh, 7-1 and looking like a top5 (number one imo)team this year preinjury. 7-3 and looking like a top5 team last year preinjury

Hes done fine

Cutler has done well in Chicago, I'm not arguing otherwise. But we're talking about whether he is Elite (and specifically whether he is better than Rodgers). And he's not.

And injury sounds like a cop-out to me. Good teams deal with injuries. Bad teams whine about them. Sometimes injuries rob your chance to win a Super Bowl one year, but that's why your career is more than just one year.

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I have no idea. He wasn't even in the playoffs this year.

Ultimately I'm starting to warm to the notion that the best way to measure a QB is by how they elevate their receivers and RB's game around them. Manning going to Denver and making Thomas a star and Eric Decker a star is an example, given that they barely had an effect prior to this (with the exception of a few memorable games). Or for that matter players like Pierre Garcon or Brandon Stokeley. Brady and Branch, Patten and even Welker is another example. Brees with almost everyone on the NO roster. Ben with Santonio Holmes.

Brandon Marshall had somewhat better stats this year compared to last year, but only somewhat. And last year he played in Miami, being thrown to by Matt Moore. I just don't see the big improvement that I would like to with Cutler. I don't see Earl Bennett becoming great, or Devin Hester, or even Matt Forte. These guys should be getting better.

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Not to mention a terrible defense (at least for the past two seasons). I'm not saying the Bears are stacked with talent, but they are pretty good in a lot of areas. If you say that the reason that Rodgers and several other quarterbacks have succeeded so much more than Cutler since arriving at Chicago is entirely due to lack of talent...it just doesn't add up.

There are many factors, and I think the major difference between Cutler and Rodgers is that Rodgers has been in the same system since he was drafted. He sat a bench and his only job was to learn their system like the back of his hand before even playing a serious snap.

Cutler excelled under Shanahan, and then had to learn from such offensive stalwarts as Ron Turner, Mike Tice, and 2010 Mike Martz who still thinks it was his system that made the Greatest Show on Turf and not a Hall of Fame QB, RB, WR duo, and LT performing in his system.

And then the lack of talent. Rodgers has an offensive line that is unjustly maligned because he holds onto the ball too much and gets sacked. Cutler has the same problem, but the difference is Rodgers has weapons who make it worth it when he shuffles around and then makes the throw. I think Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson, James Jones, and Donald Driver (from last year back) could start on any team in the league. Cutler has had Devin Hester and Johnny Knox, who would be #3s at best on most competitive NFL squads.

Now, Rodgers has definitely made the most of his situation and is an unbelievable QB. Cutler really has not and still falls in the "can be unbelievable" category. The window is definitely starting to close for him. I still love the guy, but with Lovie Smith out there will be a new whipping boy for the blood-thirsty Chicago crowd and that's going to be Cutler from here on out.

Cutler has been average through his tenure with the Bears, but it's not until you see how his backups perform in the offense that you realize accomplishing average has been pretty damned impressive.

How the heck do these threads always wind up a referendum on Jay Cutler?

I didn't even start it this time!

Brandon Marshall had somewhat better stats this year compared to last year, but only somewhat. And last year he played in Miami, being thrown to by Matt Moore. I just don't see the big improvement that I would like to with Cutler. I don't see Earl Bennett becoming great, or Devin Hester, or even Matt Forte. These guys should be getting better.

Only somewhat? 37 more receptions, a little under 300 more yards, and 5 more touchdowns only qualifies as somewhat?

IMO those guys aren't getting better because they've had Daryl freaking Drake as their position coach their entire careers. How that guy kept a job while the OCs kept rotating is beyond me. He's terrible. And I may be mistaken, but it's not Jay Cutler's job to teach his receivers how to run routes or catch balls, which has been a problem for years.

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Only somewhat? 37 more receptions, a little under 300 more yards, and 5 more touchdowns only qualifies as somewhat?
Yes, that's only somewhat. Compare to what Welker's production looked like. Compare to what Stokely's production looked like. Marshall was also targeted about 50 more times, so that's not all that surprising.

And I may be mistaken, but it's not Jay Cutler's job to teach his receivers how to run routes or catch balls, which has been a problem for years.
Actually it can be his job. That certainly was Manning's job coming into Denver. That's what Brady did in his offseason with Welker and Moss. Think the best QBs don't spend stupid amounts of time working with their receivers and line? Sorry, that's on Jay to an extent.
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There are many factors, and I think the major difference between ______and Rodgers is that Rodgers has been in the same system since he was drafted.

I think we can say this about many quarterbacks, to different degree. AR might serve as a new template for how to develop quarterbacks, or would have before this new generation blew the doors off preconceptions.

For example, especially before his shoulder went and turned his arm from very good to average/below average, I think we could say that if the 49ers draft Rodgers and put him through what Smith went through and Smith was nurtured the way Rodgers was, we'd see something of a flip in careers. I am unsure Smith would have gotten quite as good, but we really don't know...they were very comparable at draft time and Smith is also exceptionally bright.

Just as a for instance.

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