Rereading Tyrion V (ASOS-ADWD)

[Lummel]

...It hit me that this chapter reminded me somewhat of Scrooge McDuck where the ghost of his past literally come back to haunt him...

Earlier in the series Tyrion tells us it all goes back and back to their fathers. With the trial, it all goes back and back to his past. And the ghosts of his past are haunting him.

I do find the idea of ducks eating goose for christmas a bit off putting...

The Christmas carols have got to be implied given the sentences that Butterbumps! quotes, particularly since only one of those 'ghosts' is definitely dead they seem to be ghosts of alternative versions of the present. The way things might have been. Although in Tyrion's case had he been more like the scroogy duck and isolated himself from his family circumstances might have worked out better for him.

...A cloak can become threadbare after much use and washing, and given the amount of blood those crimson cloaks have upon them is a wonder they still have any thread at all

What you say here about the blood stained cloak reminds me of Tysha, somebody else Tyrion took under his protection.

Hate to go all lawyerly, especially criminal defense lawyerly...

As it happens what stood out for me this time round was what Silverin noticed

You know talking about tyrions past actions and how they led him here, or parallels that show in here...

I am sure a lot of you can make much better essays but it is interesting to see that how the "witnesses" are there because of tyrions past actions.

All those witnesses were people either on the make or who had grudges against him. Nice to see one of Janos Slynt's sons working towards vengeance for his daddy by sticking the knife in too.

Nice parallel too in the Kevan-Tywin and jaime-Tyrion relationships. The siblings from each generation have this great trust in each other. I find this chapter oddly moving because Tyrion for the first time seems to realise something about his father's generation. What ever happened at Tytos's court the experience was understood to be hugely negative by the surviving children and seems to have forged this solidarity between them. Kevan doesn't doubt Tywin here, just as Jaime in turn cannot believe that Tyrion killed Joffrey despite the trial.

The show trial aspect of it I thought was neatly expressed by Oberyn "You look so very guilty that I am convinced of your innocence" - the process is overkill. Again a slight gulf opens between myself and Ragnorak here. This business of fighting Gregor looks more like a throw of the dice (and he has to roll a hard six too) rather than the deliberate checkmate that I would have thought to be Doran's objective. Is Oberyn improvising here? The mention of Myrcella seems to suggest a different, more careful plan.

"Your father may not live forever" I love the "may" :laugh: yes, up until that moment we all thought that Tywin was immortal. Do you ever get the feeling in this reread that Tyrion is from the little league suddenly surrounded by people who are thinking much bigger than Tyrion himself? in ACOK we had Bronn and Varys suggesting killing Joffrey, here Oberyn hinting at the accidental death of a father (which will unleash anarchy). Is this Faust? All these demonic suggestions and invitations to become Richard III (or to learn how to play the fiddle real good), to seize power?

What holds him back? Love of family? Learnt helplessness? Intrinsic goodness, or at least a feeling inside of him that he's grey but not that grey? '"'No.' He spoke the lie without hesitation, and never stopped to ask himself why he should." Casterly Rock is inescapable, we used to sing about God's love at school that it was so tall you couldn't get over it and so wide you couldn't get round it. Casterly Rocks seems to be like that for Tyrion - just bigger.

More important - what is Oberyn looking to get out of this? Why does he seek to win Tyrion round when Cersei seems more promising with the prospect of opening up a war of gender succession among the Lannisters? maybe we should have done the mighty Areo Hotah reread :(

"They will call me kinslayer..." and only one letter away from what they will call jaime to the end of time. Links back to historical memory as created in the songs.

"Her mother stood tall to one side of her, her grandmother small on the other" obviously I like the tall-small ryhme, but this is also a maiden (ok allegedly), mother and crone moment, an image too of Tyrell family solidarity looking down on Lannister disunity.

While I'm mentioning the gods there was a nice touch that picked up on something else we've mentioned, the High Septon praying to the Father, then the father below leaning forward to ask if Tyrion is guilty. Oberyn's use of "may" not live for ever seems to play off the confluence of ideas of Tywin as father and as The Father. Is this then an insight to Tyrion's mental world? Tywin has created the world in which Tyrion lives...in a sense he is God the Father and represents the original creation of the son, his judgement is god's judgement, Tywin is the final arbitor for Tyrion, if not of right and wrong, then of acceptable and unacceptable in the sight of Casterly Rock.

sorry lots of scatter gun stuff!

[Silverin]

I decided to list the witnesses at the trial.

The trial

First day, opened by High Septon, praying to the Father

The witnesses:

1. Ser Balon Swann

Ser Addam had told it true; the first man ushered in was Ser Balon Swann of the Kingsguard. “Lord Hand,” he began, after the High Septon had sworn him to speak only truth, “I had the honor to fight beside your son on the bridge of ships. He is a brave man for all his size, and I will not believe he did this thing.”

A murmur went through the hall, and Tyrion wondered what mad game Cersei was playing. Why offer a witness that believes me innocent? He soon learned. Ser Balon spoke reluctantly of how he had pulled Tyrion away from Joffrey on the day of the riot. “He did strike His Grace, that’s so. It was a fit of wroth, no more. A summer storm. The mob near killed us all.”

“In the days of the Targaryens, a man who struck one of the blood royal would lose the hand he struck him with,” observed the Red Viper of Dorne. “Did the dwarf regrow his little hand, or did you White Swords forget your duty?”

“He was of the blood royal himself,” Ser Balon answered. “And the King’s Hand beside.”

“No,” Lord Tywin said. “He was acting Hand, in my stead.”

2. Ser Meryn Trant

“He knocked the king to the ground and began kicking him. He shouted that it was unjust that His Grace had escaped unharmed from the mobs.” Tyrion began to grasp his sister’s plan. She began with a man known to be honest, and milked him for all he would give. Every witness to follow will tell a worse tale, until I seem as bad as Maegor the Cruel and Aerys the Mad together, with a pinch of Aegon the Unworthy for spice.

Ser Meryn went on to relate how Tyrion had stopped Joffrey’s chastisement of Sansa Stark. “The dwarf asked His Grace if he knew what had happened to Aerys Targaryen. When Ser Boros spoke up in defense of the king, the Imp threatened to have him killed.”

3. Ser Boros Blunt

Blount himself came next, to echo that sorry tale. Whatever mislike Ser Boros might harbor toward Cersei for dismissing him from the Kingsguard, he said the words she wanted all the same.

Tyrion could no longer hold his tongue. “Tell the judges what Joffrey was doing, why don’t you?”

The big jowly man glared at him. “You told your savages to kill me if I opened my mouth, that’s what I’ll tell them.”

4. Kettleblacks

The Kettleblacks came next, all three of them in turn. Osney and Osfryd told the tale of his supper with Cersei before the Battle of the Blackwater, and of the threats he’d made.

“He told Her Grace that he meant to do her harm,” said Ser Osfryd. “To hurt her.” His brother Osney elaborated. “He said he would wait for a day when she was happy, and make her joy turn to ashes in her mouth.” Neither mentioned Alayaya.

Ser Osmund Kettleblack, a vision of chivalry in immaculate scale armor and white wool cloak, swore that King Joffrey had long known that his uncle Tyrion meant to murder him. “It was the day they gave me the white cloak, my lords,” he told the judges. “That brave boy said to me, ‘Good Ser Osmund, guard me well, for my uncle loves me not. He means to be king in my place.”

The Second day, opened by Maesters:

5. Maester Ballabar and Frenken

Maesters Ballabar and Frenken opened the second day of trial. They had opened King Joffrey’s noble corpse as well, they swore, and found no morsel of pigeon pie nor any other food lodged in the royal throat. “It was poison that killed him, my lords,” said Ballabar, as Frenken nodded gravely.

6. Maester Pycelle

Then they brought forth Grand Maester Pycelle, leaning heavily on a twisted cane and shaking as he walked, a few white hairs sprouting from his long chicken’s neck. He had grown too frail to stand, so the judges permitted a chair to be brought in for him, and a table as well. On the table were laid a number of small jars. Pycelle was pleased to put a name to each.

“Greycap,” he said in a quavery voice, “from the toadstool. Nightshade, sweetsleep, demon’s dance. This is blindeye. Widow’s blood, this one is called, for the color. A cruel potion. It shuts down a man’s bladder and bowels, until he drowns in his own poisons. This wolfsbane, here basilisk venom, and this one the tears of Lys. Yes. I know them all. The Imp Tyrion Lannister stole them from my chambers, when he had me falsely imprisoned.”

“Pycelle,” Tyrion called out, risking his father’s wrath, “could any of these poisons choke off a man’s breath?”

“No. For that, you must turn to a rarer poison. When I was a boy at the Citadel, my teachers named it simply the strangler.”

“But this rare poison was not found, was it?”

“No, my lord.” Pycelle blinked at him. “You used it all to kill the noblest child the gods ever put on this good earth.”

7. Lord Redwyne, Lord Celtigar, Ser Flement Brax

Lord Redwyne, Lord Celtigar, and Ser Flement Brax had heard Tyrion threaten the king;

8. two serving men, a juggler, Lord Gyles, Ser Hobber Redwyne, and Ser Philip Foote

two serving men, a juggler, Lord Gyles, Ser Hobber Redwyne, and Ser Philip Foote had observed him fill the wedding chalice;

9. Lady Merryweather

Lady Merryweather swore that she had seen the dwarf drop something into the king’s wine while Joff and Margaery were cutting the pie;

10.

old Estermont, young Peckledon, the singer Galyeon of Cuy, and the squires Morros and Jothos Slynt told how Tyrion had picked up the chalice as Joff was dying and poured out the last of the poisoned wine onto the floor.

The third Day:

11. Varys

Powdered, primped, and smelling of rosewater, the Spider rubbed his hands one over the other all the time he spoke. Washing my life away.

Tyrion thought, as he listened to the eunuch’s mournful account of how the Imp had schemed to part Joffrey from the Hound’s protection and spoken with Bronn of the benefits of having Tommen as king. Half-truths are worth more than outright lies. And unlike the others, Varys had documents; parchments painstakingly filled with notes, details, dates, whole conversations. So much material that its recitation took all day, and so much of it damning. Varys confirmed Tyrion’s midnight visit to Grand Maester Pycelle’s chambers and the theft of his poisons and potions, confirmed the threat he’d made to Cersei the night of their supper, confirmed every bloody thing but the poisoning itself. When Prince Oberyn asked him how he could possibly know all this, not having been present at any of these events, the eunuch only giggled and said, “My little birds told me. Knowing is their purpose, and mine.”

How do I question a little bird? thought Tyrion. I should have had the eunuch’s head off my first day in King’s Landing. Damn him. And damn me for whatever trust I put in him.

Oberyn said this:

“His truths, you mean,” said Cersei. “Father, I beg you to put him in fetters, for your own protection. You see how he is.”

“I see he’s a dwarf,” said Prince Oberyn. “The day I fear a dwarf’s wrath is the day I drown myself in a cask of red.”

Well we will see what a dwarf's wrath can cause later. Cersei was right.

A thought by tyrion:

That night, alone in his tower cell with a blank parchment and a cup of wine, Tyrion found himself thinking of his wife. Not Sansa; his first wife, Tysha. The whore wife, not the wolf wife. Her love for him had been pretense, and yet he had believed, and found joy in that belief. Give me sweet lies, and keep your bitter truths. He drank his wine and thought of Shae.

Later, he kills her because at the question "Did you ever like it" Shae gives the "sweet" lie (well it is not sweet anymore), instead of the truth.

Something to think:

“Almost,” said Cersei. “I beg your leave to bring one final witness before you, on the morrow.”

Was there no time that day, or Cersei needed to prepare the final witness?

[A wilding]

More important - what is Oberyn looking to get out of this? Why does he seek to win Tyrion round when Cersei seems more promising with the prospect of opening up a war of gender succession among the Lannisters?

As you say, Oberyn appears to be improvising, opportunistically taking advantage of Tyrion being charged with the murder.

This gives Oberyn an excellent chance to challenge Gregor and to both wring a confession out of him and then kill him. Exactly as he told Tyrion he would earlier. In addition Oberyn hopefully gets to rescue Tyrion from the other Lannisters and turn him against them. He apparently hopes to get Sansa as well.

Effectively Oberyn is as complicit as everyone else in the farce of Tyrion's trial. As a judge, he could have attempted to impose some fairness on it. But of course he wants Tyrion to be alienated from the Lannister regime and given no choice but to demand trial by combat.

[Silverin]

Sorry to double post, but now I list who the witnesses were.

1-3. There to proove that Tyrion had a motive, that he was hostile towards Joff. Since they are KG 2.3. are Cersei's.

4. There to proove Tyrion had a motive. Kettleblacks, both Cersei's and LFs men.

5. Prooving Joff was poisoned

6. Pycelle first showing he has knowledge about poisons. He claims they fpund the stolen poisons exept the strangler. Pycelle is an enemy tyrion made.

(By the way Pycelle didn't actually have strangler did he? He just made that up to frame tyrion, or do I remember wrongly?)

7-8. stating facts that happened at the wedding

9. Merryweather, lies she saw tyrion putting something into the chalice. Obviously either Tyrell or LF's man. (I think LF, but that is only my opinion)

10. stating facts, a Slynt among them.

11. Varys, also telling facts

[Lummel]

...Effectively Oberyn is as complicit as everyone else in the farce of Tyrion's trial. As a judge, he could have attempted to impose some fairness on it. But of course he wants Tyrion to be alienated from the Lannister regime and given no choice but to demand trial by combat.

you put it like that and we have Tyrion being played again.

Sorry to double post, but now I list who the witnesses were...

It is interesting that even if you strip out the perjury you've got a damning picture of violence and abuse from the wicked uncle towards the king. As Oberyn asks why wasn't his hand and foot cut off for assaulting the king? This was an accident waiting to happen.

[Blisscraft]

Lummel - The fact that all of the witnesses against Tyrion have an axe to grind only makes an unfair process more unfair. If Tyrion had been permitted to cross examine the witnesses against him, be could have pointed out their respective bias against him and thereby discredited their testimony. However, because he is denied the opportunity to reveal their bias, the whole trial stinks more than Tywin will. As readers, we know that each and everyone of the witnesses, with perhaps the exception of Swann, holds some kind of grudge against Tyrion, or is aligned with Cersei, such as Lady Merryweather, (no merry weather for Tyrion it seems).

As for the "older" generation, it seems from Kevan's statements that Tywin is the one of Tyos children who took the reins and pulled the Lannister family back together after so much indignity. Kevan says, "It fell to Tywin to restore House Lannister to its proper place." There is not only Tyrion's "astonishment" at Kevan's love for his brother, but also a true sense of how much Kevan respects his brother's ability to rule, to be "just." It's ironic that this sentiment occurs after we have witnessed two days of pure railroading of which Tywin is a main participant.

As for Oberyn, he really dodged a bullet, didn't he? This whole thing seems to be an attempt by the Tyrells (with Tywins tacit approval) to nip the Dornish alliance Tyrion helped to forge in the "rosebud." It seems that the "Red Viper" was to be set up as the fall guy for Joffrey's murder, and yet Cersei's wild finger pointing at Tyrion diverted the plan. As for Oberyn's motives to champion Tyrion, it offers him an opportunity to act "rashly" as Doran wouldn't. Oberyn, if he wins, can spoil any justice for Joffrey's death, as Elia's and her children's deaths were spoilt. The "guilty" will go free with no "justice" for the dead. (This is basically an eye for an eye type reasoning). Even if Oberyn loses, it gives him the satisfaction of knowing Gregor will die by poison. All Oberyn has to do it stick Gregor and justice for Elia and her children is done. The kneeling man will stand up.

[Silverin]

It is interesting that even if you strip out the perjury you've got a damning picture of violence and abuse from the wicked uncle towards the king. As Oberyn asks why wasn't his hand and foot cut off for assaulting the king? This was an accident waiting to happen.

The ones where tyrion was objection were lies are 3.4.6., Blunt (we actually don't know what he sais), Osmund Kettleback, and Pycelle.

And obviously Merryweather, but at that time Tywin already told him three times not to interfere.

EDIT:

As for Oberyn, he really dodged a bullet, didn't he? This whole thing seems to be an attempt by the Tyrells (with Tywins tacit approval) to nip the Dornish alliance Tyrion helped to forge in the "rosebud." It seems that the "Red Viper" was to be set up as the fall guy for Joffrey's murder, and yet Cersei's wild finger pointing at Tyrion diverted the plan.

That is why I think Merryweather is LF's man, because she is clearly lying and she has nopersonal agenda against tyrion.

[Winterfellian]

Sylverin's posts reminded me of something I thought rather peculiar about the list of witnesses and that is the lack of Tyrells, Martells and Lannisters among them.

If I have to guess it is because Mance, Oberyn and Tywin themselves stand as judges and they wanted the whole procedure to be as "impartial" as possible all to make Tyrion's guiltiness the more believable. For example, we have Cersei's threat. This was a legitimate threat and yet it is not Cersei herself who stands and declare about the events but she rather has to resort to other people in the room. The whole trial is a reversal of the "innocent until proven guilty" principle found in most modern justice courts, because Tyrion is in fact guilty until he can prove his innocence.

The level at which this mummery of a trial was staged reminds me of that council meeting in which Tyrion was appointed master of coin. In said meeting, many of the biggest decisions have been taken without Tyrion being a part of, just like his guiltiness has alreadey been decided in this case. Also, in that occasion it was LF who pulled the strings to make Tyrion master of coin, just as it is Littlefinger who pulled the strings that got Tyrion in the mess he's into right now.

[Uncat]

Hate to go all lawyerly, especially criminal defense lawyerly, on this particular chapter, but I can't help myself.

<snip>

Somehow my like-button has vanished, so I have to spell it out: Loved your post.

[Uncat]

"You have to know your name," says Theon, meaning "you have to k ow who you are"

We meet this jolly young fellow in Game. A litterat, intelligent, witty guy with a hugh ego but also apparently a gentle soul. In this medieval world he is massivly physically disdvantaged but still he copes with it with a smile on his lips and some advice for others who are torn about their identity but else have everything he doesn't. He seems to be at paar with himself.

We follow him out of the frying pan into the fire, suffering injustice, prejudice, bad jokes as well as the reproach of his family, who all but his brother seem to hate his guts. But Tyrion shilds himself from all this, because he is at paar with who and what he is.

But he isn't. What he does is, try to keep a shild up which shows this Imp guy we meet. The spell which makes the shild work goes like this: Yes, I am a dwarf, an imp, no, wait, THE Imp. But I am also a Lannister, and if you can count to two, you will know, that I am to be THE Lannister some day. I command gold enough to buy either your ass or an army to kick that ass from here across the narrow sea. And if that should fail, I'll send my brother, who is the best sword in Westeros and happens to love me or my father who is the worst enemy to have in all of Westeros and happens to be very particular about everything Lannister, even my self.

This works more or less all the way trough Clash and Storm. He keeps his shild up like a banner and acts on the image he has painted on it.

Right in the first Tywin/Tyrion chapter of Storm, Tywin shatters this shild. Tyrion has lost his selfimage and his spell. He becomes unsure, unprotected and somehow helpless. Though he klings to the pieces of his shild and occasionaly it still works as with Simon Silvertongue.

Then comes the trial and those three days with all the witnesses giving testemony against him ground his shild to dust. His selfimage is blown away and the defilee of witnesses forces on him the picture the world apparantly has of him. For three days in a row he is forced to see himself as the rest of the world apparently sees him: the monsterous twisted little Imp who is cappable of almost every crime, even slaying and betraying his own kin.

What happens in those three days is pretty much a brainwash. Tyrion emerges from it with a very different selfperception. And when Jaime twist the last shard of his former shild out of his hand by confessing his betrayial, Tyrion pics up that new image the trial offered and he acts on it. The supposedly kinslaying imp becomes the kinslaying Imp. And in Dance we see him using this new image of the kinslaying Imp again and again. He repeatly describes himself as such and states, that most of all he wants to slay and rape what is left of his close relatives.

While Ramsay does his brainwash on Theon turning him into the helpless Reek, Tywin, Cersei and Varys do their brainwash on Tyrion, turning him into the almost as helpless Imp. Both will require a big fat book to regain a feel for who they are. And for both, their names are a start. Theon claws himself back into his identity as Theon Greyjoy, the ironborne (what good that will do him remains to be seen). Tyrions regains controll by re-tying his new ugly identity to his Lannister name and claim and declares war on the remainders of his family. What good will come out of that also remains to be seen.

Edit for all those typos.

[Uncat]

I do find the idea of ducks eating goose for christmas a bit off putting...

The Christmas carols have got to be implied given the sentences that Butterbumps! quotes, particularly since only one of those 'ghosts' is definitely dead they seem to be ghosts of alternative versions of the present. The way things might have been. Although in Tyrion's case had he been more like the scroogy duck and isolated himself from his family circumstances might have worked out better for him.

What you say here about the blood stained cloak reminds me of Tysha, somebody else Tyrion took under his protection.

As it happens what stood out for me this time round was what Silverin noticed

All those witnesses were people either on the make or who had grudges against him. Nice to see one of Janos Slynt's sons working towards vengeance for his daddy by sticking the knife in too.

Nice parallel too in the Kevan-Tywin and jaime-Tyrion relationships. The siblings from each generation have this great trust in each other. I find this chapter oddly moving because Tyrion for the first time seems to realise something about his father's generation. What ever happened at Tytos's court the experience was understood to be hugely negative by the surviving children and seems to have forged this solidarity between them. Kevan doesn't doubt Tywin here, just as Jaime in turn cannot believe that Tyrion killed Joffrey despite the trial.

The show trial aspect of it I thought was neatly expressed by Oberyn "You look so very guilty that I am convinced of your innocence" - the process is overkill. Again a slight gulf opens between myself and Ragnorak here. This business of fighting Gregor looks more like a throw of the dice (and he has to roll a hard six too) rather than the deliberate checkmate that I would have thought to be Doran's objective. Is Oberyn improvising here? The mention of Myrcella seems to suggest a different, more careful plan.

"Your father may not live forever" I love the "may" :laugh: yes, up until that moment we all thought that Tywin was immortal. Do you ever get the feeling in this reread that Tyrion is from the little league suddenly surrounded by people who are thinking much bigger than Tyrion himself? in ACOK we had Bronn and Varys suggesting killing Joffrey, here Oberyn hinting at the accidental death of a father (which will unleash anarchy). Is this Faust? All these demonic suggestions and invitations to become Richard III (or to learn how to play the fiddle real good), to seize power?

What holds him back? Love of family? Learnt helplessness? Intrinsic goodness, or at least a feeling inside of him that he's grey but not that grey? '"'No.' He spoke the lie without hesitation, and never stopped to ask himself why he should." Casterly Rock is inescapable, we used to sing about God's love at school that it was so tall you couldn't get over it and so wide you couldn't get round it. Casterly Rocks seems to be like that for Tyrion - just bigger.

More important - what is Oberyn looking to get out of this? Why does he seek to win Tyrion round when Cersei seems more promising with the prospect of opening up a war of gender succession among the Lannisters? maybe we should have done the mighty Areo Hotah reread :(

"They will call me kinslayer..." and only one letter away from what they will call jaime to the end of time. Links back to historical memory as created in the songs.

"Her mother stood tall to one side of her, her grandmother small on the other" obviously I like the tall-small ryhme, but this is also a maiden (ok allegedly), mother and crone moment, an image too of Tyrell family solidarity looking down on Lannister disunity.

While I'm mentioning the gods there was a nice touch that picked up on something else we've mentioned, the High Septon praying to the Father, then the father below leaning forward to ask if Tyrion is guilty. Oberyn's use of "may" not live for ever seems to play off the confluence of ideas of Tywin as father and as The Father. Is this then an insight to Tyrion's mental world? Tywin has created the world in which Tyrion lives...in a sense he is God the Father and represents the original creation of the son, his judgement is god's judgement, Tywin is the final arbitor for Tyrion, if not of right and wrong, then of acceptable and unacceptable in the sight of Casterly Rock.

sorry lots of scatter gun stuff!

Tywin the God and father. This scene, when Tywin asks Tyrion for his guilt pretty much recalls Tyrion is his nightgown before his father. That was kind of a privat trial. No we have the real thing and again the Father looks down on his almost naked and helpless child to judge him.

[Silverin]

Another things I remembered:

The trial, the order of the witnesses is decided by Cersei. It is just she actually picked them rather smartly (just pointing out that because people often write Cersei down as stupid). Not to mention a lot of them state actual facts. The two witnesses who state lies that actually really hurt tyrion's case is Pycelle, that he had a strangler as well, and Merryweather that she see tyrion puting somethng into the wine. These two lies however are surronded by facts that seems to prove them. Varys prooves, tyrion indeed stole poisons from Pycelle. And a lot of witness saw that tyrion spilled out the wine after Joffrey started to choke.

Now after this think about the time when Cersei wanted to frame Margaery.... I know difference is that this time she is sure that tyrion killed Joff and wants him dead at all cost, but still.

[Lummel]

Hmm, Yes Uncat. I had this odd idea. This is why Tyrion's revolt against the Father is so big. He's bumping up against the limits of what his father will allow him to be. But Tyrion is the equal of Tywin and can't be contained within those bounds, well can't - maybe he can in theory but it will then cause tension.

But because Tyrion has internalised so much of his Father's world view, there is a way in which Tywin has become a super-father, a judging jealous god who has created the universe in which Tyrion lives. I'm trying to recreate a sense of just how big that act of patricide is, not only revenge, but also a blow to his own attitudes and values. The breakdown and return to Andalos are part of his recreation.

[Ragnorak]

So many different angles of perspective. Great stuff everyone.

Blisscraft, the "all lawyerly" was just just brilliant. There's a great Cicero quote about the difference between the rule of law and the rule of venal men that I can't quite recall. Despite al the pomp and circumstance aimed at dispelling the illusion of anything "improper" Tyrion would have a better chance at actual justice joining the queue of smallfolk where Brienne sees Randyl Tarly dispensing "justice." The three judges reminds me of the old adage about democracy being two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner. Justice here is as much a mummer's show as the wedding.

Lummel, as much fun as round two of the continental divide would be I don't think we have that much of a rift. I really like the Oberyn poisoning Tywin theory but it is entirely circumstantial. My emotions run to embracing the "may die" words. Given Doran's stated goals of destroying everything Tywin has before killing him and Oberyn asking Tyrion how Tywin would choose in a Tommen/Myrcella conflict, objectively this is a bit of circumstancial evidence pointing the other way. Oberyn is definitely improvising here. There's no way this could have been predicted back in Dorne.

I think they took Tyrion's offer of "justice" as a sign that they could possibly exploit the daylight that must exist between Tyrion and Tywin. Tywin would never make or approve of such an offer so clearly Tyrion and Tywin aren't exactly on the same page. The possibility that Myrcella could be crowned in the event of Joffrey's death also seems to be understood prior to leaving Dorne. I think Oberyn left Dorne with some agreed upon potential opportunities but far too little intel for any orchestrated plan. He does tweak Tyrion when they first meet and his constantly asking Tyrion when the justice will be served is a bit like his relentless Princess Bride-esque Elia assault on Gregor. There's also the post-breakfast curious history discussion. Oberyn seems to have been offering himself as a piece to Tyrion but he just never picked up on it.

It is interesting that Varys, Bronn, and Oberyn all hammer him with the obvious political step of Joffrey elimination and that the Tyrells arrive with that as an agenda. Even back in GoT the Hound was warning him about Joffrey. He thinks to himself that Jaime, the father, makes it an unthinkable option but I suspect the the shadow of Tywin is far more involved than he admits to himself-- the shadow of the other father that Lummel describes.

I like Blisscraft's take on Oberyn seeking justice for Elia by depriving it for Joffrey. A twist on poetic justice. The one distinction between Oberyn and the other judges is that he is the only one seeking truth in this trial even if trying to deny "justice." His question about Tyrion keeping his limbs to me is an implication that the witnesses are lying. He is pointing out that they in fact did not see it as the crime they are testifying to if they did not do their duty at the time or the alternative that they have no honor or sense of duty-- a bit of establishing a reputation for truth and veracity.

Speculation-- is Tywin planning on using the Nights Watch option for Tyrion to blackmail Jaime into reconsidering?

[Winterfellian]

Not much to add, so I just want to thrown this out there to see what you guys think. Do you believe that Tywin's offer to take the black was legitimate or just a ruse to get Tyrion to confess being a kinslayer-kingslayer? Kevan seems to believe so, but as was pointed out he goes on and on about Tywin being just and no more hard than he needs to be while the trial Tywin is presiding reeks of injustice.

ETA- Personally I don't believe Tywin for one second, but I struggle to understand his motivations here. Does he thinks that Tyrion's confession will finally grant him the chance to declare Tyrion's not his son for all the realm to hear and thus clearing the path for Jaime. Kevan tells Cersei in AFFC that Tywin believed Jaime to be his rightful heir. If so, could it be that Tywin was still harboring the hope that Jaime quit the KG?

[Theda Baratheon]

I actually think it might have been a ruse, but I don't know.

[Winter's Knight]

I think it was genuine-the Queen's brother being executed for murdering the king at his own wedding feast does not look good for House Lannister. Better to have Tyrion confess, blame it on his unnatural instincts, put it about that he was jealous of the brave and beautiful Joff before showing mercy, and sending him to the Wall.

[Silverin]

I think it was genuine as well.

After all he didn't needed tyrion's confession to execute him, with the whole trial, and later the trail by combat. In this case tyrion obviously can't get CR.

And if tyrion geoes to the Wall, he can't inherit CR either. So I don't see why tywin needs to kill him.

[Ragnorak]

I'm a bit mistrustful of Tywin's stated motives in general. Kevan believes it is real so if Tywin goes back on the offer he'd need to rationalize it to Kevan somehow. "The death of a King demands blood and I can't be seen as weak" might be more than sufficient but Kevan's sense of family seems highly developed. I can easily see him stomaching that answer for a non-Lannister but it might be harder with family. My gut instinct is that it is a poisonous fruit offer or at least one with hidden strings attached. My speculation that was intending to use the threat of a Tyrion execution to force Jaime to reconsider may not be accurate but it strikes me as the type of hidden agenda Tywin has in making the offer.

ETA

Winterfellian, I forgot to include how much I love your running cloak metaphor especially tying in the red hiding the blood. I'm still mulling over the connection to the bear skin and the shadowskin cloak and Tyrion's lack of a non-Lannister cloak this book.

Lady Merryweather is a curious one. Her testimony fits with the agendas of LF, the Tyrells, and Cersei. That it ingratiates her to everyone doesn't really point her to anyone. We'll see later that she wasn't really bought by Cersei as she has to use the maid to establish that relationship. I'm a bit partial to Doran's spy but far from convinced about her role.

Thinking about Varys and smelling like "rosewater" I recall in Sansa I (SoS) Olenna mentions that Varys said lemon cake was her favorite and he seemed to expect them to be gateful for the information. Did Varys pull a similar stunt with the Tyrells as he did with Tyrion's arrival in KL?

[Wouter]

Kingsguard trial: Presentation of monstrosity and motive

The trial begins and Tyrion is brought before the three judges to ask how he will plead. Tyrion claims innocence. When asked whether Sansa had a hand in the poisoning, Tyrion thinks, “Wherever Sansa was and whatever her part in this might have been, she remained his wife. He’d wrapped the cloak of his protection about her shoulders, though he’d had to stand on a fool’s back to do it.” However, Tyrion doesn’t state Sansa’s innocence, but rather deflects the question: “The gods killed Joffrey. He choked on his pigeon pie.” At first glance, this looks like an altruistic gesture, but it is completely self-serving. He believes that Sansa is guilty, but won’t accuse her because of the fact that it will be condemning himself simultaneously given that they are married.

I disagree with the last 2 sentences. Tyrion thinks to himself that he has declared he will protect Sansa by wrapping the cloak around her, and thus he attempts to protect her by not accusing her at the trial, just as he decided to pour out the remaining wine from the chalice earlier. I do not think his refusal to blame Sansa is self-serving; inspite of the "one heart" thing, he knows it is a public secret that she was dragged to her marriage at swordpoint and that their marriage was a laughing stock and a sham. If he would attempt to shift blame to Sansa herself (with maybe implicating the Dornish as someone who could supply poison to her), he would stand a better chance then by blithely claiming Joffrey merely choked and there was no murder at all.

I think Tyrion's protectiveness toward Sansa here, no matter how grudgingly, is one of his more admirable actions considering he really considers her as a likely culprit. While he may be unreasonably bitter with Sansa over her desertion, his bitterness doesn't lead to him putting all the blame for the murder on her.

Earlier in the thread, it was noted that Garlan took part in "treachery" (Renly's armour) and in a piece of theathre when the Tyrells asked Joffrey officially to marry Margaery. But the first, fighting in Renly's armour, is not "treachery" (it's not like he betrayed Stannis by pretending to be on his side!), it's a war list. Robb also used "tricks" to convince Jaime and Tywin his army was somewhere it was not, in order to beat them, and he used his wolf to find a way around the Golden Tooth. That's just using your available arsenal, not "treachery". The idea may well have come from someone else anyway.

As for the second, Loras was also involved in the comedy when Joffrey officially switched his bride-to-be. However, Loras is almost certainly not involved in Olenna's plot to poison Joffrey. The fact that all the other Tyrells (but Leonette later) turn their backs on Sansa as soon as her marriage points against an orchestrated Tyrell plot to gain Sansa's trust.