R+L=J v.39

[Winterfellian]

I was at a party last night for the Inauguration and ended up talking to a TV-only fan who wanted to get into the books. I was telling him about the books and how great they were, and out of curiosity, based on the TV show, did he know who Jon's parents were? He looked at me funnily and said, "Well Ned's his dad, right?" So I explained it all to him and he was pretty much floored.

Based on that experience and other experiences with TV-only fans, I can pretty much guarantee that when this reveal happens, a lot of them will have blown minds. He had absolutely no idea, hadn't even considered it.

Also he said that he already thought Dany was annoying, so I liked him even more.

I think some fans might piece bits of it, but not the entire thing because the poor amount f evidence there. I have a friend who also only watches the show, but during the HOTU sequence he wondered if the snow in the throne room wasn't symbolic to Snow as in Jon Snow and asked me if his mother might not be some Targaryen and not thaat Wylla woman Ned mentioned. Not really close, but it's a start.

Show Dany is certainly annoying but I don't wanna criticize because I find show Jon to be a cartoon of the awesome character he's in the book :P

[Pugsley]

Show Jon made me rage in season 2! He lost about 50 IQ points from S1. My theory is that when Craster clocked him on the head he suffered some sort of brain damage. Poor guy. I hope he's healed from that by S3.

Anyway, I watched the first season before reading the books, and RLJ hadn't even occurred to me. I knew there had to be something special about Jon's mom or it wouldn't be such a mystery, but I never doubted Ned was the dad.

[Wun Wun's Wife]

Remember "Show Jon" still knows nothing, and it really won't be until season 5 that Show Jon knows something and is telling Ghost Ygritte (further proof he's part Targaryen) that everyone else knows nothing, so give Show Jon a break. ;-)

[Pugsley]

Book Jon may not be a genius but at least he's competent! Show Jon manages to mess up everything he touches. He's a liability more than an asset. Sorry, I know this topic doesn't belong here. Just a sore spot for me. :)

[MtnLion]

To head up the page, Lady of Whispers posted this on the last thread for us:

For all guys who are new to this topic.

This post has been made by Doctor Pepper in R+L=J v. 34. Best read it before you start asking: "How can Jon be a Targ if he has a burned hand" or before you come up with "He doesn´t look like a Targaryen. I also recommend reading you the analyses of the links they are great.

Reference guide.

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:

Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:

Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:

Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?

Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targ fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?

Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Many of the Great Bastards did not have Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?

Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?

Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?

The evidence that Jon is probably the legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the KG opted to stay at the TOJ stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a KG vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?

The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the ASOIAF readership. Also, A Game of Throneshas been out since 1996. That's more than 15 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?

Ned doesn't think about anyone being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?

Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Thank you Doctor Pepper this has been really great work!!!

[Wun Wun's Wife]

No worries - I can nitpick the show as well! It's quite easy, though I do think D&D have done a fantastic job. There are quite a few Jon things from the book that the show changed, has nothing to do with Kit Harington, just him asking to go off with Qorhin Halfhand v. Halfhand hand-picking him, and Ghost finding the cache of obsidian and broken horn on the Fist of the First Men, are two scenes they changed for I don't know what reason, and I think they are pivotal to Jon's story. Though I'm not the author, only a nitpickey fan, plus "only a girl and know little of such matters". :)

[Roza Ahai]

If Jon will reborn as AA that would be a proof of R+L=J, is not it?

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Show Jon needs work. lol They haven't put as many clues in the show, it must be hard to pick up on unless you are looking for it

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

If Jon will reborn as AA that would be a proof of R+L=J, is not it?

Not really, because not everyone will believe it. Most don't believe in AAR/TPTWP.

[Jon Icefyre]

I honestly think Jon will be more bummed about Ned not being his dad then Rhaegar being his dad. But I think the joy of Lyanna as his mother will over ride everything. Jon has always obsessed about the identity of his mother more than anything.

[Zupoleon]

I honestly think Jon will be more bummed about Ned not being his dad then Rhaegar being his dad. But I think the joy of Lyanna as his mother will over ride everything. Jon has always obsessed about the identity of his mother more than anything.

Personally I think his regret will be that he won't be able to thank Ned for his sacrifice...

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

I honestly think Jon will be more bummed about Ned not being his dad then Rhaegar being his dad. But I think the joy of Lyanna as his mother will over ride everything. Jon has always obsessed about the identity of his mother more than anything.

Personally I think his regret will be that he won't be able to thank Ned for his sacrifice...

"Bittersweet ending"? Sounds about right.

[Roza Ahai]

If R+L=J is true how will it help develop the plot? Is it possible to prove that Jon is Targ, and that he is a legitimate child when there is no paternity test? People will think that he is a next imposter.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If R+L=J is true how will it help develop the plot? Is it possible to prove that Jon is Targ, and that he is a legitimate child when there is no paternity test? People will think that he is a next imposter.

If it's important to the plot and it matters, then there is some way in the story to prove it.

[Roza Ahai]

If it's important to the plot and it matters, then there is some way in the story to prove it.

Yep. That is interesting how GRRM is going to prove it.

[Jon Icefyre]

If R+L=J is true how will it help develop the plot? Is it possible to prove that Jon is Targ, and that he is a legitimate child when there is no paternity test? People will think that he is a next imposter.

If it's important to the plot and it matters, then there is some way in the story to prove it.

Ya if GRRM itntends to have Jon's lineage be of great importance to the plot then he will find a way to prove Jon's lineage...He is the author after all lol. How much evidence is needed to sway ppl in the realm perhaps depends on where GRRM wants to take the story. For instance, I think if Jon is to be a king he would need less hard evidence to prove his lineage in order to gain the support of the north, and become king of the north. Because the north already views him as having stark blood, and I think the north knows the type of man Ned Stark was and would think that Jon being Lyanna's son would actually make a lot sense because Ned isn't really the type of man to father a bastard (along with other reasons). But to sit on the irone throne I think the south would be a much tougher crowd for Jon to gain support from, and at the same time be recongnized as Rhaegar's son.

[Son of a Harpy]

I was at a party last night for the Inauguration and ended up talking to a TV-only fan who wanted to get into the books. I was telling him about the books and how great they were, and out of curiosity, based on the TV show, did he know who Jon's parents were? He looked at me funnily and said, "Well Ned's his dad, right?" So I explained it all to him and he was pretty much floored.

Based on that experience and other experiences with TV-only fans, I can pretty much guarantee that when this reveal happens, a lot of them will have blown minds. He had absolutely no idea, hadn't even considered it.

Also he said that he already thought Dany was annoying, so I liked him even more.

To be fair, there's been very little hinting towards R+L=J in the show. It's clear Jon's lineage is a mystery and his mother may be somebody important, but it's never really leaned on. I can't even recall Rhaegar and Lyanna being mentioned past the pilot episode; TV-only audiences will be lucky if they're reminded who they are and why they should care.

I never would have worked out this theory without reading the books, I'll say that.

[Jon Icefyre]

To be fair, there's been very little hinting towards R+L=J in the show. It's clear Jon's lineage is a mystery and his mother may be somebody important, but it's never really leaned on. I can't even recall Rhaegar and Lyanna being mentioned past the pilot episode; TV-only audiences will be lucky if they're reminded who they are and why they should care.

I never would have worked out this theory without reading the books, I'll say that.

Bran mentions it in one of the later episodes of season 1 briefly but other than that it hasn't really been mentioned at all. They won't really start talkin about it until ser Barristan Selmy meets up with Dany.

[The guy from the Vale]

Jorah also mentions Rhaegar once, iirc.

[Queen of Procrastination]

Jorah also mentions Rhaegar once, iirc.

What does iirc mean? I´ve seen that abreviation a couple of times, but I couldn´t figure out what it means.

To head up the page, Lady of Whispers posted this on the last thread for us:

To be fair the whole thing has been made by Doctor Pepper in R+L=Jv. 34, but I had some proplems with the quoteing so I just coppied it.

I think we should put a post like that at the beginning of every new R+L=J thread. Those threads who had these posts at the beginning had (nearly) none of the annoying questions and it can be really hard for noobs to completly understand R+L (I know that from experience). Just two days ago I had a long disucssion with another member of this forum who knew R+L, believed in it, but had no idea that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married.

Maybe we should add/work over some things like the "Why didn´t Ned tell Catelyn" question or exolain the Alfie Allen quote (people tend to misunderstand that one, too). I would also like to add a collection of all the text evidences for R+L=J and some sort of R+L=J timeline with the most important stuff like the existimated time of Jon´s birth or Lyanna´s "kidnapping" (which will remain vague, because we don´t have that much information about the the time between the different events).

I would like it to be a complete R+L=J collection with an explanation of the theory and the stuff we believe, all evidences, a timeline and the FAQ.

I will work on that, but I don´t know the timeline as good as some you do anybody wants to help/ has ideas what we should put in it?

Warning! The work might be timeconsuming!