Dune: Threat or Menace? To reread or retire.

[Guest]

I loved the body shield effects in Lynch's "Dune".

That actually seemed like respectable special effects for the time the film was made.

[sToNED_CAT]

That actually seemed like respectable special effects for the time the film was made.

What do you guys think about the Dune miniseries? I think first ones (based on 1st Dune book) had not very good acting and really cheap effects, but I still liked them more. The sequels - Messiah and Children of Dune were really really good for a TV production, much improved acting decent effect and good music, in fact it was the best adaptation of Dune universe on screen. Too bad that those 2 books themselves were not more interesting.

[MercenaryChef]

i have read the first three dune novels no less than once per year for the last 24 years.

no shit.

i have often read them twice or even three times.

the original novel i have given away to people like some sort of herbertian missionary easily 20 times in my life. once i gave it to a total stranger on a bus. i was on my way to work reading dune. a woman asked if it is a good book. i told her it was and she must read it. i gave her the copy i was reading.

perhaps it is just me, but i feel the first three books hold up very very well and are certainly worth reading again, again, again and again.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

Dune and the Dune series are some of my all time favorite novels (excluding those books not written by Frank Herbert that don't actually exist). They are great idea books with interesting philosophical discussions. Chapterhouse: Dune was the first hardback first print I ever bought.

I always knew you were all right.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

I second this but want a real answer. Most of what I've seen Dune fans say about it is basically, "if you don't agree that it's good, you suck." I can't remember anyone ever explaining WHY it's worth reading. I do find it easier to write a criticism (even a thoughtful explanatory one) than a rave review of substance, but since I also don't care about having to read the origin of SFF ideas, it seems that someone must be able to explain what's so great about it, right?

It is the basis of what Martin does in my opinion--it is the first Red Wedding of speculative fiction in how it deals with characters you love and root for (there is no Red Wedding, just moments that give you the same kind of feeling).

[Tears of Lys]

It is the basis of what Martin does in my opinion--it is the first Red Wedding of speculative fiction in how it deals with characters you love and root for (there is no Red Wedding, just moments that give you the same kind of feeling).

I kinda got a Red Wedding feeling during the events surrounding Paul and Jessica's flight into the desert. In fact, there's many such scenes, come to think of it.

I think we have a tendency to become jaded by all the similar scenes, the offshoots of Herbert's mind-blowing vision, that have dulled us down. All you have to do is remember how it struck you when you first read it to realize its brilliance.

[Shryke]

I don't see any "Red Wedding" in it at all. "Horrible tragedy wipes out the hero's family" is how tons of stories start.

The Red Wedding is shocking because it happens way, way later in the story.

[Tears of Lys]

Speaking for myself, I'm not looking at it just as a "loses family" sort of shock, but the gut-wrenching emotional punches that I got from other scenes.

I don't know if I have to "spoiler" stuff in this thread or not. :idea:

Example: Liet-Kynes death atop the spice blow was pretty bad. For me, at least. It was tragic that this planet he dreamed of transforming literally swallowed him up as he wandered deliriously.

I got into it big-time the first time I read it. Yeah, death scenes are second nature to me now, but back then when I first read Dune, death really meant something. :P

[Centrist Simon Steele]

I kinda got a Red Wedding feeling during the events surrounding Paul and Jessica's flight into the desert. In fact, there's many such scenes, come to think of it.

I think we have a tendency to become jaded by all the similar scenes, the offshoots of Herbert's mind-blowing vision, that have dulled us down. All you have to do is remember how it struck you when you first read it to realize its brilliance.

Yeah Paul and Jessica have a lot of similarities to Robb and Cat. Leto to Ned, Duncan to Jorey, Gurney to Rodrick, and though he doesn't play for the Starks, I see Littlefinger and Thufir to be very similar too. Not saying Martin copied (that's Robert Jordan's thing), but that these archetypes and tragedies are in both stories. I love both for the fact that there are no "safe" characters. Well except one, but who could have seen his fate? Over and over again...

[Tears of Lys]

We talk often on this board about themes being repeated, but I can't recall any stories where a character has been brought back over and over through the millenia, just to be used as a tool by the ruling family. That's pretty heavy.

/smokes and thinks...

[Centrist Simon Steele]

We talk often on this board about themes being repeated, but I can't recall any stories where a character has been brought back over and over through the millenia, just to be used as a tool by the ruling family. That's pretty heavy.

/smokes and thinks...

It's not even in a immortal vampire type of way. It's totally just fucked up genetic experimentation. Love it.

[Tears of Lys]

And to kill the ones that didn't exhibit the "right" behavior...

Yeah, Leto I and Leto II were definitely two different guys. :P

And, yet, there's something so poignant about Leto II that it's hard to hold it against him.

[Gormenghast]

I'm about the middlepoint of Dune, with The Matrix like moment where everything seems to change/be revealed. I have to say that I'm quite liking it. The switching of PoV doesn't bother me in any way and characterization is interesting with the constant second-guessing of other characters who then second-guess back.

My only pet peeve is that the Baron is too much signature villain. Fat & disgusting and with the interest on kids. It's so unsubtle and plain.

I'm also convinced there's no place for being fat in a sufficiently advanced future. Think about it. What purpose being fat could serve? I can only think of two, warmth and reserve of energy, and neither of these two are what a powerful and rich guy is in need of. They go to the extent of making gravity gadgets to hold up that fat and yet can't simply avoid that fat being created? I'd expect that there's plenty of technology to keep everything under control, *especially* the body.

You know what I can see in the future? Furries. Communities of furries who fights for their furry rights. That's what's plausible. Fat not so much. If not as some form of perversion that would be likely quite rare.

[Eponine]

It is the basis of what Martin does in my opinion--it is the first Red Wedding of speculative fiction in how it deals with characters you love and root for (there is no Red Wedding, just moments that give you the same kind of feeling).

I have read Dune, and I guess what didn't work for me was that I didn't love the characters and wasn't rooting for anyone.

Solo's post on worldbuilding was a satisfactory answer IMO about what's good about Dune, and I can't disagree that Dune was a good example of most those things, but I still didn't enjoy it.

[Galactus]

Warning: I also love the film. Yes, the David Lynch one. Which I can pretty much recite off by heart. Anyone with the misfortune to be in the same room as me while I'm watching it can have the joy of hearing me do all the voices.

I must admit, I do like the movie.

[Lummel]

I read the whole Dune series in one go when I was about 19, and loved it. All of it. So much so, in fact, that I even made it through TWO of the fucking prequels before admitting how badly they sucked, just cos I was so stoked to have more stuff about sandworms and spice and whatnot. I haven't dared re-read any of them as a more discerning adult, just in case. But as far as I can recall, the experience was like opening a window onto another universe and it was awesome; no recollection whatsoever of how well or badly the characters held up, just cos the worldbuilding was so impressive.,,

It is the kind of book that because of its scope and ambition that if you come across it at the right moment in your life it will hook you

just how do train-sized worms have sex with hwi noree, anyway?

Well it's only going to end one way, and it won't be pretty.

and what's not to like? ... captain picard, the alphabet killer, von sydow, endless ergs, train-sized worms, talking cocks in tanks of red cocaine, timothy leary in the desert, religious fundamentalism triumphant, a che guevara foco war, ethnic minority's victorious war of liberation, and two hundred excellent one-liners...

If your penis looks like

then get yourself to a clinic (also I think it's a warning sign when your penis starts saying things like "I did not say that, I was not here")

[MinDonner]

I'd watch it again. But how can you stand the Baron's pustules? That's where Lynch kinda lost me. :vomit:

This is where the FFWD button comes in handy...

[Tears of Lys]

My only pet peeve is that the Baron is too much signature villain. Fat & disgusting and with the interest on kids. It's so unsubtle and plain.

Remember that fat had been, for a long time, associated with jollity and good, this character was **not** a signature villain because he was fat. We forget that what is trite and stale to us now was new at some point. That's the challenging part about reading much older books than this - you are required to see them with a fresh eye.

(Had to get away from the pustules and the train-sized penii)

[Gormenghast]

The problem is not the trope of the villain. The problem is filling the villain with villainous traits. That's what I find simplistic.

The total lack of redeeming qualities and the piling of bad traits to the point of parody.

[Lummel]

I thought that was particularly a problem in Children of Dune, but I'd certainly add it to any list of flaws of Dune. The Harkonnians are just too moustache twirlingly "MWAHHAHA" all the time. They are evil, they have an evil planet, where evil people do evil things to each other just because they are evil. On the up side, at least there isn't an issue with inconsistency of characterisation.