Dune: Threat or Menace? To reread or retire.

[peterbound]

I thought that was particularly a problem in Children of Dune, but I'd certainly add it to any list of flaws of Dune. The Harkonnians are just too moustache twirlingly "MWAHHAHA" all the time. They are evil, they have an evil planet, where evil people do evil things to each other just because they are evil. On the up side, at least there isn't an issue with inconsistency of characterisation.

Indeed. If anything, they are true reflection of their environment.

[Lummel]

Yeah, I suppose so! Something that I did like was the kind of environmental determinism with the Fremen and how that panned out over the books. Herbert certainly wasn't afraid to go for big concepts and play with them.

[Errant Bard]

Thinking about that environmental determinism theme and the struggles to beat it, Bakker probably took more out of Dune than Jordan did.

[Tears of Lys]

The Harkonnens, IIRC, weren't really the true villains of the book anyway. Weren't they just...

... the tools of the Padishah Emperor anyway?

He certainly wasn't a black/white villain.

[Serious Callers Only]

I'm also convinced there's no place for being fat in a sufficiently advanced future. Think about it. What purpose being fat could serve? I can only think of two, warmth and reserve of energy, and neither of these two are what a powerful and rich guy is in need of. They go to the extent of making gravity gadgets to hold up that fat and yet can't simply avoid that fat being created? I'd expect that there's plenty of technology to keep everything under control, *especially* the body.

The dune setting is interesting - it's supposed to be the future; but it's highly static and 'backwards', due to the backstory (that jihad thing).

In fact, it's unbelievably backwards, since they had some kind of proto-AI thing going on; and let's not discuss how the shield stuff makes no sense.

I actually classify it as a fantasy book, for various reasons.

As modern villains the Harknonnen ruling family sucks, but the Bene Gesesrit rule.

It's not like FH couldn't do subtle opposition, just look at Malky (i think) on GEoD or the Tleilaxu fanatic-stuff on the next to last book.

The 'cabal' on dune messiah and possessed Alia on CoD kinda were bad thou - i guess making a big deal of the Baron being the father of Jessica backfired later on.

[williamjm]

What do you guys think about the Dune miniseries? I think first ones (based on 1st Dune book) had not very good acting and really cheap effects, but I still liked them more. The sequels - Messiah and Children of Dune were really really good for a TV production, much improved acting decent effect and good music, in fact it was the best adaptation of Dune universe on screen. Too bad that those 2 books themselves were not more interesting.

I think the original miniseries is a more faithful adaptation of the book than Lynch's film is, although they do still change things most of the story is intact. Lynch did manage to make the film feel like the epic it is meant to be, most of the acting is better and although the special effects are inevitably dated I still prefer them to the miniseries effects. The miniseries is probably more consistent than the film, the film has some really clunky exposition (particularly early on) but also has some scenes that are more memorable than the miniseries.

I thought Children of Dune was perhaps better than the original miniseries and it did a surprisingly good job of adapting two novels I'd have thought were almost unfilmable. I did prefer it to the two books it's based on, although that's not hard because I didn't particularly like the two sequels I read.

[Tears of Lys]

The dune setting is interesting - it's supposed to be the future; but it's highly static and 'backwards', due to the backstory (that jihad thing).

In fact, it's unbelievably backwards, since they had some kind of proto-AI thing going on; and let's not discuss how the shield stuff makes no sense.

I actually classify it as a fantasy book, for various reasons.

As modern villains the Harknonnen ruling family sucks, but the Bene Gesesrit rule.

It's not like FH couldn't do subtle opposition, just look at Malky (i think) on GEoD or the Tleilaxu fanatic-stuff on the next to last book.

The 'cabal' on dune messiah and possessed Alia on CoD kinda were bad thou - i guess making a big deal of the Baron being the father of Jessica backfired later on.

Hey, it's a rainy Tuesday night. You got something better to do than discuss the implausibility of Dune? Hmm? :P

You're being too cryptic for me, though, about "Malky" - who the heck was that?

[Gormenghast]

Now that I finished Dune I was surprise to notice how much of the plot is copied by the Wheel of Time.

I thought it was mostly about the Freemen/Aiel comparison, but the strongest influence is about the order of Aes Sedai, the way they hold their power, the research for the man who can channel and that can both bring salvation or destruction. The whole thing of the Dragon Reborn is almost an exact copy of the Kwisatz Haderach.

[Serious Callers Only]

Hey, it's a rainy Tuesday night. You got something better to do than discuss the implausibility of Dune? Hmm? :P

You're being too cryptic for me, though, about "Malky" - who the heck was that?

Malky was the Ixian 'father' (clone, gender flipped, ethics flipped) of that embarrassing character named Hwi Norwee, that gets thrown off a window by Leto (apparently a favourite activity) in GEoD.

Eheh, the tyrant's solution to bothersome annoyances.

The classical argument for the unrealistic parts of dune comes from the shields+lasguns and how that makes them a much better weapon than when when alone, leading to the notion that 'shields make missile weapons obsolete' to be highly suspect, even with the tabu of the weapon convention - apparently both lasguns and shields are dime a dozen on all military forces, this being very much not the way to manage a weapon convention which won't violated constantly even by very much unaligned parties. But FH needed that effect for the big showdown on Dune so in it went.

There are other parts, like much of the core of the setting is about 'human'-derived abilities instead of technological ones, and how these abilities don't even make sense on a only-purely mechanic setting (like the other memory - if it's only biological, things like the 'sharing' couldn't happen).

On a higher level, i personally think that the later books (later than the first, the second and the penultimate mostly) seem to imply that other memory is a artifact of a almost Jungian unconsciousness going on with human beings - i'm especially thinking of the part where leto II gets doped up with melange on Children of Dune and relives the 'Jihad', it being very much not a 'machine war' but a political/religious movement, like 'anti-nuclear' but taken up to eleven - to the point of spawning all of the 'alternative' specializations of mankind and completely eliminating 'forbidden' research on highly desirable technologies, and how that would fit on the 'Jungian' model of the 'adolescence' of mankind, the golden path, and the weird stuff with Sheena on the later books.

It's very much a 60's setting.

[Myrddin]

What do you guys think about the Dune miniseries? I think first ones (based on 1st Dune book) had not very good acting and really cheap effects, but I still liked them more. The sequels - Messiah and Children of Dune were really really good for a TV production, much improved acting decent effect and good music, in fact it was the best adaptation of Dune universe on screen. Too bad that those 2 books themselves were not more interesting.

The montage scene at the end of the "Messiah" portion is still one of my favorite onscreen scenes. Perfect. And I love the

they played over it.

Inama nushif (She is eternal)

Al asir hiy ayish (No malice can touch)

Lia-anni (Singular and ageless)

Zaratha zarati (Perpetually Bound)

Hatt al-hudad (Through the tempest)

Al-maahn al-baiid (be it deluge or sand)

Ay-yah idare (A singular voice)

Adamm malum (speaks through the torrent)

Inama nishuf al a sadarr (Forever her voice sings)

Eann zaratha zarati (through the ages eternally bound)

Kali bakka a tishuf ahatt (Sacrifice is her gift)

Al hudad alman dali (That no one can equal)

Inama nishuf al a sadarr (Forever her voice sings)

Eann zaratha zarati (through the ages eternally bound)

Kali bakka a tishuf ahatt (Sacrifice is her gift)

Al hudad alman dali alia (that Alia will one day equal)

Inama nushif (She is eternal)

Al asir hiy ayish (No malice can touch)

Lia-anni (Singular and ageless)

Zaratha zarati (Perpetually Bound)

[brzibrzi]

I have read the original series (dune - chapterhouse dune) about 10 years ago. i re-read certain parts, found a lot of details that i missed in the first read and decided i HAD to re-read the whole series some day. the reason i haven't done it already is that there is so much awesome books that i haven't read at all so a re-read seems like a waste of time

dune and god emperor of dune are my favourites by far, i look forward to reading it again. some things seemed very cryptic when i read it the first time so i think i will pick up a lot more when i read it again.

[Arthmail]

Dune in a Martin style

that's asoiaf, aye?

wanna jump in a tell me it's incredible?

i regard the first volume as one of the indispensible masterworks of speculative fiction. anyone who doesn't like it is obviously a defective person or an evil person, and should be subject to corrective labor.

I agree.

The problem is not the trope of the villain. The problem is filling the villain with villainous traits. That's what I find simplistic.

The total lack of redeeming qualities and the piling of bad traits to the point of parody.

So, you think Saddam had redeeming qualities? Stalin? Hitler? If Baron Harkonnen has redeeming qualities, do they need to be shown when we are looking at him? Could he even have them considering the depraved setting that seems to sum up Geidi Prime? I mean, his house was stained by cowardice in a very important battle in the rise of House Corinno and the Padishah Emperors and i think that played a heavy hand in the events that were to follow.

I disagree with this continuing notion that we need to always see the softer side of Sears. Sometimes people are fucking evil. I suppose we could have him thinking about how he was beat as a child, or had to kill his brothers or what have you - a proper backstory - but the thing is he is in Dune simply as a vessel for events, manipulated by fate and the Padishah Emperor. He is not the main character.

I read Dune every year. I have sent my original copy, which has pictures from the movie, with friends everytime they travel around the world, or when i go. It has been to the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Denmark, Switzerland, Germany, Sweden, America, Iceland, Jamaica, India, obviously Canada where i am from, Mexico, Cost Rica, Panama, the Dominican Republic, and England. Its starting to get pretty ratty.

I enjoy the characters as well as the world setting. I have no problems with the jumping around to different POVs. I would wonder if those that found that a problem then have a problem with the way that The Road by Cormac McCarthy is laid out. Non-traditional does not mean bad, in my opinion.

The really unique feature of the books, aside from the religion and the ecology, is the creation of a myth around a central character, the fact that he very quickly percieves that it is going to be a problem and looks to avoid it only to realize that he cannot, and then the deconstruction of his myth in later books and the rise of new myths. The book is complex on a level not to be found in modern works. I really enjoy Richard Morgan, for instance, or Banks, or Reynolds, but their ideas seem very weak compared to Herberts. I mean, he spent years working on the book, doing the research into desert ecologies and such. It shows, i suppose, in that there are bits that are a little stiff.

But the characters shine through. Gurney Halleck, Duncan Idaho, Stilgar, Paul and his father, Jessica...all of them.

Easily my favorite scene in the first book is when Duke Leto is called away from a dinner meeting once they have started to establish themselves a little on Arrakis. Paul taking over as the head of the table, and the subtle interplay of politics that results, has always struck me as being far more subtle than many of the politically contrived scenes we often see today.

The books that followed were...different. But Herbert was for the grand ideas, and i found Chapterhouse Dune to be particularily good when i read it, though i need to go through those books again.

[brzibrzi]

Easily my favorite scene in the first book is when Duke Leto is called away from a dinner meeting once they have started to establish themselves a little on Arrakis. Paul taking over as the head of the table, and the subtle interplay of politics that results, has always struck me as being far more subtle than many of the politically contrived scenes we often see today.

same here, it was one of the scenes i re-read a few times. it's not exactly action, but once you start to read that scene you can't stop, it's genuinely exciting

[lokisnow]

I've been a fan of the book since I was ten, I've probably read it a dozen or more times, more than probably any other books, I've only read the sequels once-ish. As a kid I liked the movie, sorta, but I rewatched it a few years ago and it was pretty horrendously bad.

I've never had a problem with the character perspective transitions (the lack thereof), out of curiousity, for those readers for whom this style is a deal-breaker, are you able to read other styles of writing that also lack traditional signalling devices? For instance, I find Cormac McCarthy almost impossible to read due to the lack of quotation marks, it's a deeply confusing/disconcerting experience.

[Toshio.Keepiru]

Great world building and lots of good ideas, but I disliked most of the characters, and the books too often degenerated into philosophical/political/religious essays, especially God Emperor, which was where I gave up on the series.

That's rather unfortunate, because the two books after G.E. of Dune deal with the consequences of what Leto II has done. They are definite improvements over the pace of the 4th book in the series.

If Frank Herbert had lived to finish the Dune story arc started in Heretics and Chapterhouse, I feel that there would have been a good chance of truly great science fiction, at the very least it would have been far better than the "fan fiction" conclusion that was printed in the past few years.

The prequels aren't too bad. They at least provide a plausible backstory of the Butlerian Jihad... the sequels and filler books are bad... comparable to decent "fan fiction" at best.

[The Marquis de Leech]

So, you think Saddam had redeeming qualities? Stalin? Hitler? If Baron Harkonnen has redeeming qualities, do they need to be shown when we are looking at him?

Hitler, Stalin, and Saddam may not have had redeeming features, in the sense that nothing can redeem them morally, but they certainly had attributes other than mere moustache-twirling. Hitler liked Wagner's music and German Shepherd dogs, Stalin was incredibly well-read, and so on. Baron Harkonnen is so over the top (right down to the homosexuality) that he is impossible to take seriously. He's a cartoon.

[Toshio.Keepiru]

Baron Harkonnen is so over the top (right down to the homosexuality) that he is impossible to take seriously. He's a cartoon.

He's not the main villain though... sure he's an enemy of the Atreides but he was used, as a pawn, by the Padishah Emperor to deal with House Atreides... only unfortunately for the Emperor they fail to kill the son in the first book.

Throughout the books the main villain(s) change(s) and eventually there is no real main villain, but adversaries with conflicting goals. Although if Frank Herbert lived to finish out the story arc detailed in Heretics and Chapterhouse a threat (or threats) to the survival of humanity would probably have been clearly defined.

[Arthmail]

Hitler, Stalin, and Saddam may not have had redeeming features, in the sense that nothing can redeem them morally, but they certainly had attributes other than mere moustache-twirling. Hitler liked Wagner's music and German Shepherd dogs, Stalin was incredibly well-read, and so on. Baron Harkonnen is so over the top (right down to the homosexuality) that he is impossible to take seriously. He's a cartoon.

So who cares though? Hitler liked music and dogs. If you met him briefly, which is really all we get to do with the Baron, you would know nothing of that. We do not see Baron Harkonnen in his regular life, only the moments where he is scheming. I don't care to see him floating along on a suspensor belt walking his dogs, or enjoying a good book by the fire. That does not interest me. Also, again, though he gets more screen time than any other villain he is not truly the main villain. He is a tool of greater forces.

There has been a trend for the last decade or more to show all facets of the villain, to fully flesh them out beyond showing their primary motivation. Baron Harkonnen's primary ambition was to see House Atriedes destroyed and to live long enough to do so, so there is a side plot detailing his struggles with his heir. But aside from that, aside from the crucial movtivations of his character, i don't really give much of a shit.

[Toby Frost]

"Put the pick in there, Pete, and turn it round - real neat."

I like the film (probably the sanest thing Lynch has ever done) because it looks amazing. I like the book as well, although on re-reading I realised that the first half was much more entertaining than the second, mainly because the interesting characters and the complex politics were killed off and replaced by holy war and interchangeable adoring Fremen. Also the whole jihad bit has, er, lost some of its novelty these days, whereas the weird Landsraad/Houses Major structure is really interesting. Also, according to Wikipedia, the Landsraad is the name of the Parliament of Greenland.

[Clueless Northman]

I don't see any "Red Wedding" in it at all. "Horrible tragedy wipes out the hero's family" is how tons of stories start.

The Red Wedding is shocking because it happens way, way later in the story.

Except it's not at the start of the story. Leto is killed right at the middle of the book, after you've spent half the novel with him; yes, you can guess Paul is the main character and not his dad, but his dad looks like the 2nd most important character all along.