The Princess and the Queen [SPOILERS]

[Ran]

For many people, it's the fact that they can't very easily get a hold of the first couple of stories readily, or they have to buy a whole lot of other stories they aren't particularly interested in to read them.

So, a collection serves them very well. We'll certainly see a lot more people familiar with Dunk & Egg after the collection comes out.

[History of Westeros]

I for one have zero interest in an anthology that collates an unfinished series. Just me.

Having discussed the main series with countless people, it's surprising how often folk who really enjoyed the books aren't aware of D&E. Actually, it *used* to be surprising, now I'm used to it. :)

So I'm glad they are promoting D&E, because so many aren't aware that they exist, and once those people read it we'll see some new discussions, interpretations, theories perhaps. etc. Generally speaking, it's a good thing.

[Nelapsi]

Having discussed the main series with countless people, it's surprising how often folk who really enjoyed the books aren't aware of D&E. Actually, it *used* to be surprising, now I'm used to it. :)

I'm one of these people. I live in France, I don't even know if these were released here, and I haven't put any effort in finding out yet. I must, and am looking forward to talking about it, extensively :P

[Lord Godric]

Whenever it is completed and finds a home in an anthology, it can't be reprinted for the first year to protect the exclusivity of the anthology. Since it has been pushed back to who knows when, this will keep the collected book from being delayed even longer. It would be nice if he skipped the anthology route and added it to the collected book as an exclusive, but I'm not holding my breath for that. :(

That was my initial hope after he announced it wouldn't be in this anthology, but his wording definitely makes it seem like that is not going to be the case.

[DaveSumm]

Sorry if this has been brought up already, I'm just revising this whole period; what do we make of Stannis's comment that Rhaenyra was "daughter of one king, mother to two"? Surely the line of succession went Viserys, Aegon II (briefly), Aegon III? Who was the second child?

[mcb]

Sorry if this has been brought up already, I'm just revising this whole period; what do we make of Stannis's comment that Rhaenyra was "daughter of one king, mother to two"? Surely the line of succession went Viserys, Aegon II (briefly), Aegon III? Who was the second child?

Viserys II.

[DaveSumm]

Viserys II.

Ahhh sorry. I looked at the next king and saw it was Aegon III's son so assumed that was Rhaenyra's offspring done with.

[DaveSumm]

Sorry if this has been brought up already, I'm just revising this whole period; what do we make of Stannis's comment that Rhaenyra was "daughter of one king, mother to two"? Surely the line of succession went Viserys, Aegon II (briefly), Aegon III? Who was the second child?

Viserys II.

The iBook of A Game Of Thrones has the 'Targaryen Dynasty' list that appears at the back of my hardback and paperback, but it lists Viserys II as the fourth son of Aegon III, not his brother. Does anyone know if this is an error, or whether this is transcribed from an early version that's been changed since?

[Ran]

Wow, interesting. Yes, that's from the original printing of AGoT. When "The Hedge Knight" was published, George introduced a discrepancy that he fixed by changing Viserys II into Aegon III's brother rather than his fourth son, and ever since then that's what's been in the appendix... but somehow the iBook edition is using the first print. Weird.

[mcb]

The iBook of A Game Of Thrones has the 'Targaryen Dynasty' list that appears at the back of my hardback and paperback, but it lists Viserys II as the fourth son of Aegon III, not his brother. Does anyone know if this is an error, or whether this is transcribed from an early version that's been changed since?

Probably the latter. There's an old SSM from which I understand that initially Viserys II was supposed to be Aegon III's son:

If Viserys II (reigned 171-172) is a younger brother of Aegon III, rather than one of his sons, I believe the ages of the kings that follow will work better.

[DaveSumm]

After all this discussion of the period and what we know about it, I've gathered together all the relevant mentions from the books about The Dance of the Dragons. I searched for instances of "Dance of the Dragons", "Rhaenyra", "Arryk" and "Criston". These are the only words I could think of that wouldn't return vast amounts of irrelevant results, as Viserys obviously comes up in relation to Dany's brother, Aegon as in 'The Conqueror' etc etc. I'm pretty sure I've caught all of them. I've searched The Hedge Knight and there was no mentions but I don't have iBooks of The Sworn Sword or The Mystery Knight, so there may be some mentions in those that I'm missing in this post.

A Game Of Thrones Chapter 8, Bran II

Bran was going to be a knight himself someday, one of the Kingsguard. Old Nan said they were the finest swords in all the realm. There were only seven of them, and they wore white armour and had no wives or children, but lived only to serve the king. Bran knew all the stories. Their names were like music to him. Serwyn of the Mirror Shield. Ser Ryam Redwyne. Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. The twins Ser Erryk and Ser Arryk, who had died on one another's swords hundreds of years ago, when brother fought sister in the war the singers called the Dance of the Dragons. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. Barristan the Bold.

A Game Of Thrones Appendix, The Old Dynasty, House Targaryen

129-131 Aegon II

Eldest son of Viserys, [Aegon II's ascent was disputed by his sister Rhaenyra, a year his elder. Both perished in the war between them, called by the singers the Dance of the Dragons.]

A Clash Of Kings Chapter 41, Tyrion IX

Prince Tommen sobbed. "You mew like a suckling babe," his brother hissed at him. "Princes aren't supposed to cry."

"Prince Aemon the Dragonknight cried the day Princess Naerys wed his brother Aegon," Sansa Stark said, "and the twins Ser Arryk and Ser Erryk died with tears on their cheeks after each had given the other a mortal wound."

"Be quiet, or I'll have Ser Meryn give you a mortal wound," Joffrey told his betrothed.

A Storm Of Swords Chapter 36, Davos IV

Davos had no choice but to answer. "Death," he said. "The penalty is death, Your Grace."

"It has always been so. I am not … I am not a cruel man, Ser Davos. You know me. Have known me long. This is not my decree. It has always been so, since Aegon's day and before. Daemon Blackfyre, the brother Toyne, the Vuture King, Grand Maester Hareth … traitors have always paid with their lives … even Rhaenyra Targaryen. She was daughter to one king and mother to two more, yet she died a traitor's death for trying to usurp her brother's crown. It is law. Law, Davos. Not cruelty."

A Storm Of Swords Chapter 67, Jamie VIII

There had been times during its history where the Kingsguard had been divided against itself, most notably and bitterly during the Dance of the Dragons. Was that something he needed to fear as well?

A Feast For Crows Chapter 13, The Soiled Knight

"The first Viserys intended his daughter Rhaenyra to follow him, do you deny it? But as the king lay dying the Lord Commander of his Kingsguard decided that it should be otherwise."

Ser Criston Cole. Criston the Kingmaker had set brother against sister and divided the Kingsguard against itself, bringing on the terrible war the singers named the Dance of the Dragons. Some claimed he acted from ambition, for Prince Aegon was more tractable than his wilful older sister. Others allowed him nobler motives, and argued that he was defending ancient Andal custom. A few whispered that Ser Criston had been Princess Rhaenyra's lover before he took the white and wanted vengeance in the woman who had spurned him. "The Kingmaker wrought grave harm," Ser Arys said, "and gravely did he pay for it, but…"

"…but perhaps the Seven sent you here so that one white knight might make right what another set awry."

A Feast For Crows Chapter 16, Jaime II

"The best and the worst." So one of us is like to live in song. "And a few who were a bit of both. Like him." He tapped the page he had been reading.

"Who?" Ser Loras craned his head around to see. "Ten black pellets on a scarlet field. I do not know those arms."

"They belonged to Criston Cole, who served the first Viserys and the second Aegon." Jaime closed the White Book. "They called him Kingmaker."

A Dance With Dragons Chapter 8, Tyrion III

Haldon was unimpressed. "Even Duck knows that tale. Can you tell me the name of the knight who tried the same ploy with Vhagar during the Dance of the Dragons?"

Tyrion grinned. "Ser Byron Swann. He was roasted for his trouble … only the dragon was Syrax, not Vhagar."

"I fear that you're mistaken. In The Dance of the Dragons, A True Telling, Maester Munkun writes-"

"-that it was Vhagar. Grand Maester Munkun errs. Ser Byron's squire saw his master die, and wrote his daughter of the manner of it. His account says it was Syrax, Rhaenyra's she-dragon, which makes more sense than Munken's version. Swann was the son of a marcher lord, and Storm's End was for Aegon. Vhagar was ridden by Prince Aemond, Aegon's brother. Why should Swann want to slay her?"

A Dance With Dragons Chapter 11, Daenerys II

Viserys had told her all the tales when she was little. He loved to talk of dragons. She knew how Harrenhal had fallen. She knew about the Field of Fire and the Dance of the Dragons. One of her forebears, the third Aegon, had seen his own mother devoured by his uncle's dragon.

[DaveSumm]

Wow, interesting. Yes, that's from the original printing of AGoT. When "The Hedge Knight" was published, George introduced a discrepancy that he fixed by changing Viserys II into Aegon III's brother rather than his fourth son, and ever since then that's what's been in the appendix... but somehow the iBook edition is using the first print. Weird.

In all my copies though, the entry for Aegon II states that Rhaenyra is only a year older than Aegon. This has changed to 10 years now hasn't it?

It's actually never stated that they're even half brother and sister in the books, I wonder if this changed later as well? I hadn't realised how much of our info on all this came from the RPG stuff, not the books.

Also interesting to note that Jaime remarks that Criston falls into the 'good and bad' category. He must have done something positive in his tenure for it to be well known all these years later, be good to find out more about him.

[Ran]

The large age difference remains, as does their being half-siblings. As to "good and bad", well, Cole was a brave man, and perhaps the best knight in the realm. That's the "good".

[Lord Varys]

The age difference between Rhaenyra and Aegon was introduced first in the description for the portrayal of Rhaenyra, as was the fact that they are only half-siblings. This background strongly indicates that the Dance is supposed to be a rather great rift between the various branches of the great Targaryen family tree at this time.

But I really liked the original one year difference, and the full-sibling thing as well. They could have even been married to one another, an arranged incest marriage between brother and sister could have held the potential for a war. Especially if the woman in question would have a very strong personality and the biggest dragon in town. A fight between two married Targaryen for dominance over each other and the Realm could have been very interesting...

[Werthead]

Wow, interesting. Yes, that's from the original printing of AGoT. When "The Hedge Knight" was published, George introduced a discrepancy that he fixed by changing Viserys II into Aegon III's brother rather than his fourth son, and ever since then that's what's been in the appendix... but somehow the iBook edition is using the first print. Weird.

It should be noted that the UK edition of AGoT has never been changed to accomodate the issue. Even the whole new printing from last year (with the new, cleaner typeface) still makes the same mistake.

[lcd52]

I must have missed that part. Just saw the Red Viper dialed up to 11 comparison...

ETA: My point still stands though. I don't think too many people would argue that the Red Viper and Joffrey were similar in many ways. The Red Viper is a lot of things, but cruel and crazy (Joffrey's main attributes) wouldn't be the first words used to describe him...

Lord Tywin Lannister, in Storm of Swords:

"(Doran) is a man who weighs the consequences of every word and every action. But Oberyn has always been half-mad."

Also, poisoning your weapons so that your opponents die slow, torturous deaths is kinda cruel.

[Ran]

I've discovered that the show tie-in reprints also have this error reintroduced. Grr.

[Lord Varys]

Ran,

it may worth a thought to update the Old Dynasty Section in the AGoT even more. There is not only the Viserys error, but now the confusion about the age difference between Aegon II and Rhaenyra. Considering that we now know as much as we can about the Targaryen heritage, it may also be worth a thought to add some information to the rather short list of kings in the appendix as well. New readers should get an impression that things like the Blackfyre Rebellion and the incident at Summerhall may become important.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

The Starks do also share those qualities. I'd be very surprised if Jaehaerys and Alysanne did not marry at least one of their children/siblings/cousins to a Stark. I don't see the whole court including the dragons travel to Winterfell for anything else but a marriage.

That's a very good point. I've always suspected there's a little bit of dragon blood lurking in the North. In aCoK, Old Nan connects the comet with dragons (and is the only person we see doing that), but the North doesn't seem to have a lot of dragon legends being passed around. How did she get the call right? Methinks she has a drop or two of dragon blood in her veins. (Well diluted, of course.) A daughter, or second or third son, of Jaehaerys seems a likely source.

I hadn't connected those guesses with the possibility of the Northern Visit being prompted by a wedding, though. Well spotted!

[Starks Among Us]

That's a very good point. I've always suspected there's a little bit of dragon blood lurking in the North. In aCoK, Old Nan connects the comet with dragons (and is the only person we see doing that), but the North doesn't seem to have a lot of dragon legends being passed around. How did she get the call right? Methinks she has a drop or two of dragon blood in her veins. (Well diluted, of course.) A daughter, or second or third son, of Jaehaerys seems a likely source.

I hadn't connected those guesses with the possibility of the Northern Visit being prompted by a wedding, though. Well spotted!

Interesting that Old Nan says that and like you say, the rest of the household/North doesn't seem to make that association, but beyond the wall, they do. IIRC Osha tells Bran that the comet means dragons. How is it above the wall they know/believe about dragons, and below the wall at WF they do not? Unless it's just another incidence of how the wildlings still believe in magic/forces of nature etc and the Southoners do not.