The Hooded Man new (?) theory...(possible spoilers)

[Mulled Wino]

I don't think it's so OT, I think Osha even comments about relieving herself on the foot of a king... and the door is properly closed and blocked ( Lady Dustins men have to heat and chip away the ice on the door seal ) yet Hodor had forced it open partway. Hints that someone had previously tidied up ,and made sure the door was well blocked ?

ETA: If the HM is Benjen , he could have been in the crypts and able to come and go through a secret outside entrance ,if there is one...And if there is one, I don't think it could be anyone other than Benjen . I suspect there could be some defense mechanism / spell incorporated in the passage , similar to the Black Gate , but for Starks.. Just a suspicion, but if there's old , Wall era magic binding the Starks and WF, a secret passage ( if there is one ) would not be there for just anyone's use.

But someone like Harwin ( or anyone else familiar with WF ) could have been among the squatters , and eluded capture by hiding in Bran's "secret" passage in the inside wall . It seems logical that it could have been fairly common knowledge , at least to potential defenders . There just wouldn't have been a need to use it , under normal circumstances.

I don't think Harwin should be ruled out because Theon believes him dead. I think Theon not only recognizes the HM , but does believe him to be dead . (One of the ghosts in WF) This could be why , though Theon himself wonders if the HM could be the killer , he doesn't mention the HM to Roose and the others , even to remove himself from suspicion.

Coming over the wall seems much less likely , much more risky for anyone on a secret mission .... but I guess it's not impossible.

I like the Benjen solution best , but it could be one of the others.... However , I think Ramsay is responsible for most of the killings ( just like before ) with the notable exception of Little Walder ( done in by Big Walder on Roose's orders , or at least with his knowledge )

How is coming over the wall more unlikely than someone just appearing out of the crypts?

Theon took winterfell by sending guys over the wall. No one has randomly popped up from the crypts that entered from outside of winterfell.

Im sorry, i just dont see how that makes sense. No one is really guarding the walls and fhey cant see anything anyway.

[FittleLinger]

Why would Theon think that Harwin died at the sack of Winterfell? He didn't see Harwin there when he captured it.

I think Theon thinks Harwin died at kings landing like Fat Tom did. He thinks Alyn and Harwin died there too but they went with Beric where Alyn died but not Harwin.

Theon would be a very unreliable narrator indeed if he saw Harwin as the hooded man and then in his next chapter thinks of him as dead. How does this make any sense?

If Harwin is the hooded man are you saying that Theon didn't recognize him? Or that he is so crazy that he recognizes Harwin as the hooded man but thinks that he is a ghost and still lists him as dead when he thinks about him later?

Yeah, sorry, I thought he thinks of the sack because he put it in one sentence with Old Nan. He clearly thinks he died with Ned's men, so my mistake.

But this doesn't go against the argument. About the bolded part - yeah - either of the two. He either doesn't recognize him or is just batshit crazy and thinks he is a ghost. It actually would make sense - Theon is crazy, we have the whole "rising from the dead" motive in the whole chapter, and maybe that's why Theon was acting so weirdly in the encounter - he thinks the HM (Harwin) is either dead or not real. In such case the truth would be in the middle regarding is it Theon's imagination or a real person - Theon thinks it's his imagination, but in fact it's a real person. So maybe either this, or he just didn't recognize him.

The main arguments pro Harwin are that he would know WInterfell and Arya, would know that Theon was treated as kin (kinslayer), and it would make sense for a BWB member to be at WF, as we are given the example with Tom O' Sevens at Riverrun. And that the HM possibly killed a Frey. I don't think the "Theon thinks he is dead" refutes it at all.

[bemused]

Whew ! I had a hard time finding this thread again , what with all the doppelganger threads.. ;)

Mulled Wino ..

It may not make more sense if you just take the question generically, such as : A mysterious man appears in a locked down castle. Is he more likely to have come over the walls, or out of the crypts ?.. But to me, it makes more sense in the overall way the story has been tending. So many hints about the WF crypts, etc... and look where we are . Something's about to happen , and I think there's been too many hints for the crypts only to serve as a hide-out for a secondary character. ( sorry , Mance )

I think there are sentries on the walls, maybe not as many as if they were under seige.. Anyway , is there a quote that says there weren't ? I don't recall..The one quote that sticks in my mind comes when Theon is mounting to the wall ,where he thinks that particular stairway wasn't used often ( therefore, perhaps, others were )..

Actually, I'm thinking that the fact that people can't see far in the snow could as easily work against someone climbing over, as well as defenders . There would be no way of knowing who or what might be waiting on the other side. A man seen coming over the wall or descending from it would certainly warrant a second glance , whereas a man simply making his way along the walkways at ground level might not... If there had been no spark of recognition between Theon and the HM, if he had not spoken, they would likely have passed and kept on going their separate ways.

We know Theon took WF by coming over the wall at night and unnoticed , but WF was even more lightly held then ( The spearwives may not know how Theon did it , but I'd bet the Boltons do ( via Ramsay ), and might therefore be watchful..and they are watching out for Stannis ). Even if there are no regular rounds made of the walls... when we see Theon take other routes, access to the walls, at least , is guarded .

Roose mentions all the places Theon has been seen, including , I think , the walls.... If the HM is Harwin , he might well know about Bran's passage , if a non-WF man , much less likely... However , I do think it's possible that the HM either entered that way ...or had gone up to look for signs of the Umbers, or to signal them somehow, to go ahead and start making noise.

So , I freely admit that what makes me favour the crypts more than the wall is the slow steady feeling of portent that's been building around them from the first book. In a GoT , Bran's thoughts about the inside wall passage lead you to believe there are others. ..There are many references, throughout, to the crypts going much deeper, and always with a " keep out" warning , or is it , "secure area " , or "top secret " ? :) ..There must always be a Stark .. Bael the Bard .. The oddly hands off behavior of The Liddle as Bran travels north... the Black Gate ... These things all seem disparate , but I feel an underlying resonance between them.

In ADWD, Barbrey doth protest her hatred of Starks too much.. She would have known Benjen well..She opens the crypts and obliquely asks about the lower levels.. The HM doesn't appear until after they're open... In another passage , Theon remembers being taught by Rodrik Cassel how to defend a staircase from men trying to fight their way up..this makes us realize the problems facing men entering that way.. but also ,what would be necessary for them to succeed ..i.e. open doors and allies holding those doors open so they can emerge. (There are ample Northmen in WF to see to that.)

Then there's Manderly's sizeable secret reserve force , and in Robett Glover , a man to lead them. I don't think they're being held in reserve for Stannis' future benefit. I feel they were always marked for a move against the Boltons ..from before the time Stannis tries to rally the North to his cause.

Last but not least , I feel the NC does not want to help Stannis take WF. They want to take it themselves. Then they can let Stannis in as a guest , come to an agreement as to what extent they'll support him in future , but he will not have ultimate say in the disposition of WF, and his maniacal supporters of Red Rahloo will have to keep away from the Godswood.

Of course, I do know about best laid plans...

I like redriver's idea about Myrtle / The Liddle , but I don't think that would automatically identify Myrtle as the HM.. I can see Harwin, but think ( timelines?) he'd have to be a johnny-come- lately to the NC , given his earlier sentiments , and would not necessarily be well known to all the NC leaders. Glover ...otherwise occupied.. and I really can't see Davos at all.

ETA: not only do I think , like FittleLinger , that Theon thinking he was dead wouldn't rule anyone out , I think it all makes best sense if he does think he's met a ghost.

[Mulled Wino]

Whew ! I had a hard time finding this thread again , what with all the doppelganger threads.. ;)

Mulled Wino ..

It may not make more sense if you just take the question generically, such as : A mysterious man appears in a locked down castle. Is he more likely to have come over the walls, or out of the crypts ?.. But to me, it makes more sense in the overall way the story has been tending. So many hints about the WF crypts, etc... and look where we are . Something's about to happen , and I think there's been too many hints for the crypts only to serve as a hide-out for a secondary character. ( sorry , Mance )

I think there are sentries on the walls, maybe not as many as if they were under seige.. Anyway , is there a quote that says there weren't ? I don't recall..The one quote that sticks in my mind comes when Theon is mounting to the wall ,where he thinks that particular stairway wasn't used often ( therefore, perhaps, others were )..

Actually, I'm thinking that the fact that people can't see far in the snow could as easily work against someone climbing over, as well as defenders . There would be no way of knowing who or what might be waiting on the other side. A man seen coming over the wall or descending from it would certainly warrant a second glance , whereas a man simply making his way along the walkways at ground level might not... If there had been no spark of recognition between Theon and the HM, if he had not spoken, they would likely have passed and kept on going their separate ways.

We know Theon took WF by coming over the wall at night and unnoticed , but WF was even more lightly held then ( The spearwives may not know how Theon did it , but I'd bet the Boltons do ( via Ramsay ), and might therefore be watchful..and they are watching out for Stannis ). Even if there are no regular rounds made of the walls... when we see Theon take other routes, access to the walls, at least , is guarded .

Roose mentions all the places Theon has been seen, including , I think , the walls.... If the HM is Harwin , he might well know about Bran's passage , if a non-WF man , much less likely... However , I do think it's possible that the HM either entered that way ...or had gone up to look for signs of the Umbers, or to signal them somehow, to go ahead and start making noise.

So , I freely admit that what makes me favour the crypts more than the wall is the slow steady feeling of portent that's been building around them from the first book. In a GoT , Bran's thoughts about the inside wall passage lead you to believe there are others. ..There are many references, throughout, to the crypts going much deeper, and always with a " keep out" warning , or is it , "secure area " , or "top secret " ? :) ..There must always be a Stark .. Bael the Bard .. The oddly hands off behavior of The Liddle as Bran travels north... the Black Gate ... These things all seem disparate , but I feel an underlying resonance between them.

In ADWD, Barbrey doth protest her hatred of Starks too much.. She would have known Benjen well..She opens the crypts and obliquely asks about the lower levels.. The HM doesn't appear until after they're open... In another passage , Theon remembers being taught by Rodrik Cassel how to defend a staircase from men trying to fight their way up..this makes us realize the problems facing men entering that way.. but also ,what would be necessary for them to succeed ..i.e. open doors and allies holding those doors open so they can emerge. (There are ample Northmen in WF to see to that.)

Then there's Manderly's sizeable secret reserve force , and in Robett Glover , a man to lead them. I don't think they're being held in reserve for Stannis' future benefit. I feel they were always marked for a move against the Boltons ..from before the time Stannis tries to rally the North to his cause.

Last but not least , I feel the NC does not want to help Stannis take WF. They want to take it themselves. Then they can let Stannis in as a guest , come to an agreement as to what extent they'll support him in future , but he will not have ultimate say in the disposition of WF, and his maniacal supporters of Red Rahloo will have to keep away from the Godswood.

Of course, I do know about best laid plans...

I like redriver's idea about Myrtle / The Liddle , but I don't think that would automatically identify Myrtle as the HM.. I can see Harwin, but think ( timelines?) he'd have to be a johnny-come- lately to the NC , given his earlier sentiments , and would not necessarily be well known to all the NC leaders. Glover ...otherwise occupied.. and I really can't see Davos at all.

ETA: not only do I think , like FittleLinger , that Theon thinking he was dead wouldn't rule anyone out , I think it all makes best sense if he does think he's met a ghost.

Bumping until I can get on a computer.

I will discuss the first point now though. I was exaggerating a bit when i said "no sentries". There was a lack of centries. The 2 textual quotes are:

1) theon remarks at one point that there were more snow sentries than real sentries, i believe.

2) he also notes that all of the real guards on the wall are crowded into the guardhouses. They aren't walking the walls.

I dont think its a stretch for the NC folks outside to take a chance on sneaking a guy in. They know sentries cant see, they can also cause distractions to gather the attention of any possible real watchers that could possibly see anything.

Ive remarked a few times that the horns or drums or whatever they use outside wf start right around the time theon sees the hm, i dont think that's coincidence.

I do see what you are proposing about the feel of the story with the crypts. They will have importance, they must.

Its similar to why I dont like theon durden, it just doesnt help the story.

[FittleLinger]

Mullied Wino and bemused - I'm sorry, but what is your crypts/walls discussion really about? Seriously, I'm not being condescending, I'm honestly trying to understand.

I mean, IMO the HM is an infiltrator - if he went through the crypts, then I think it would have been the easier and safer way for him to proceed, same with walls. Are you @bemused maybe trying to make a connection with Lady Dustin's visit to the crypts and the HM? There could be something there... Also Lady Stoneheart literaly rose from the dead, so if Harwin went to the crypts, yeah, I could see a parallel. But in this case it's on a meta level, I still think if he did use the crypts, it would have been a more mundane reason in-book, as in it was the better way to procede.

OTOH - it's really hard to see in such a snowstorm and I don't see it as impossible to use the walls either. It would also make a nice parallel here too (as well as being more straight-forward) - Theon makes the point of the guy walking the opposite direction as Theon leaves the Longhall - and we know later Theon jumped through the wall, so maybe the HM came through the wall.

Also, what was Mance and the spearwives' planned escape route with Jayne - I do not remember.

All in all, I don't think it matters much and both seem equally plausible to me.

[redriver]

Mullied Wino and bemused - I'm sorry, but what is your crypts/walls discussion really about? Seriously, I'm not being condescending, I'm honestly trying to understand.

I mean, IMO the HM is an infiltrator - if he went through the crypts, then I think it would have been the easier and safer way for him to proceed, same with walls. Are you @bemused maybe trying to make a connection with Lady Dustin's visit to the crypts and the HM? There could be something there... Also Lady Stoneheart literaly rose from the dead, so if Harwin went to the crypts, yeah, I could see a parallel. But in this case it's on a meta level, I still think if he did use the crypts, it would have been a more mundane reason in-book, as in it was the better way to procede.

OTOH - it's really hard to see in such a snowstorm and I don't see it as impossible to use the walls either. It would also make a nice parallel here too (as well as being more straight-forward) - Theon makes the point of the guy walking the opposite direction as Theon leaves the Longhall - and we know later Theon jumped through the wall, so maybe the HM came through the wall.

Also, what was Mance and the spearwives' planned escape route with Jayne - I do not remember.

All in all, I don't think it matters much and both seem equally plausible to me.

The planned escape route was over the walls,albeit with the aid of a rope.

What I like about the Myrtle/Liddle idea is that he/she walked through the main gates.No crypts or grappling hooks needed.

"My old mother."Yes indeed Mance.

[Lion of Judah]

A stone mason doesn't really add any interesting aspect to what's going on, but since we have no idea who it is I suppose he can't be ruled out.

[bemused]

MW..I'm really can't buy Theon Durden , either.

FittleLinger .. I guess it got started from me saying I thought the crypts were a more likely entry point ( But I can see how it could have been the walls )...and it's partly because I feel the mystery about the crypts is really coming to a head.

For me , that would raise problems with the HM being Harwin ,because I don't think Harwin would know about a secret passage ( in our medieval castles they were kept very secret ) and perhaps couldn't use it if he did ( If it is like the Black Gate ).It appears ( if it's there ) even the current Starks didn't know before they all left WF ..That would mean if the HM is Harwin, he would have had to come over the wall.

I just prefer Benjen , through the crypts, courtesy of knowledge from the CoTF or Bloodraven...I see the drums and horns of the Umbers not so much as a distraction to cover the HM , but them reacting to a cue from him.. ( they don't start up until after Theon is questioned by Roose ) , maybe to fool those inside into thinking it's Stannis , or just to unsettle them ( well , it does that ), to force them to act.

I don't know ... maybe they'd planned to let Stannis (unknowingly) act as a distraction to Roose , making their assault easier.

I don't think Mance had an exact plan until he saw the lay of the land. He wanted to know how Theon took WF ... probably hoping there was some secret way in ( most castles would have some escape route for the ruling family , in case of seige ) but after they talk to Theon ,they take the wall,and there may be a difference from what he planned at CB, in that now he thinks it's safest to get "Arya" to Stannis.

I think both may be plausible, but I think if I was in the NC, I'd be looking for a way to get my men in there first. They'd still have to work with Stannis. But I'd be in a better position to make terms if Stannis was beholden to me, rather than the reverse. He couldn't make pronouncements , or maybe even demands , but really have to negotiate.

ETA: FL.. Yes, I definitely see Barbrey being connected to the HM .. both involved in the NC.

[Mulled Wino]

MW..I'm really can't buy Theon Durden , either.

FittleLinger .. I guess it got started from me saying I thought the crypts were a more likely entry point ( But I can see how it could have been the walls )...and it's partly because I feel the mystery about the crypts is really coming to a head.

I just prefer Benjen , through the crypts, courtesy of knowledge from the CoTF or Bloodraven...I see the drums and horns of the Umbers not so much as a distraction to cover the HM , but them reacting to a cue from him.. ( they don't start up until after Theon is questioned by Roose ) , maybe to fool those inside into thinking it's Stannis , or just to unsettle them ( well , it does that ), to force them to act.

As far as story development, you're killing two birds with one stone here, so I can completely understand the why one would prefer Benjen. SOMETHING is going to happen with those two (crypts/Benjen) and it would be a neat way to tie them both back into the story.

[Mulled Wino]

Whew ! I had a hard time finding this thread again , what with all the doppelganger threads.. ;)

So , I freely admit that what makes me favour the crypts more than the wall is the slow steady feeling of portent that's been building around them from the first book. In a GoT , Bran's thoughts about the inside wall passage lead you to believe there are others. .

This could also bolster your Benjen argument as Benjen could have scaled the wall and taken the inner passage. I would guess he would have had to scale the wall to get back south unless he knows of the gate in the NF. I like the inner passage idea, but it reeally would only be legit for a stark. (Or Jamie as a real stretch).

.There are many references, throughout, to the crypts going much deeper, and always with a " keep out" warning , or is it , "secure area " , or "top secret " ? :) ..There must always be a Stark .. Bael the Bard .. The oddly hands off behavior of The Liddle as Bran travels north... the Black Gate ... These things all seem disparate , but I feel an underlying resonance between them.

Or the rooms are collapsed and impassible.

In ADWD, Barbrey doth protest her hatred of Starks too much..

totally agreed

She would have known Benjen well..She opens the crypts and obliquely asks about the lower levels.. The HM doesn't appear until after they're open... In another passage , Theon remembers being taught by Rodrik Cassel how to defend a staircase from men trying to fight their way up..this makes us realize the problems facing men entering that way.. but also ,what would be necessary for them to succeed ..i.e. open doors and allies holding those doors open so they can emerge. (There are ample Northmen in WF to see to that.)

Seems like everyone asks about the lower levels. I would.

But yes, feasible for sure. A Harranhel parallel of sorts.

Then there's Manderly's sizeable secret reserve force , and in Robett Glover , a man to lead them.

This is where we differ. Yes, Robett can lead them, but Manderly also has his son, who has proven himself in battle, and the other knight that commands his household guard and forces in WH. What Manderly doesn't have is a knight to do nights work, other than Robett Glover that we know of.

I don't think they're being held in reserve for Stannis' future benefit. I feel they were always marked for a move against the Boltons ..from before the time Stannis tries to rally the North to his cause.

Prudent and very Manderly like. however, it could also be that he kept them back to defend WH if something happened to Wyman and the fact that Stannis is making moves and fighting for the same cause prompted Manderly to let his forces loose on WF. Glover could be there to give Manderly the signal that his troops are positioned and ready.

Last but not least , I feel the NC does not want to help Stannis take WF. They want to take it themselves. Then they can let Stannis in as a guest , come to an agreement as to what extent they'll support him in future , but he will not have ultimate say in the disposition of WF, and his maniacal supporters of Red Rahloo will have to keep away from the Godswood.

I think they'll take what they can get, but yes, they most certainly don't want Stannis marrying some Florent to a Stark. I'm also not as concerned about the followers of Rahloo. Stannis doesn't force people south of the wall to worship Rahloo. He's nowhere near dumb enough to try and make the Northerners give up the old gods....With the wildlings, it was mostly a way to get them to show fealty and make them pay some sort of toll to come into the realm.

I like redriver's idea about Myrtle / The Liddle , but I don't think that would automatically identify Myrtle as the HM..

definitely not, but I really like the idea of liddle being in the castle covertly. but not the HM. All 5 other spearwives aren't necessarily attractive either, iirc the short fat one just has gigantic boobs.

I can see Harwin, but think ( timelines?) he'd have to be a johnny-come- lately to the NC , given his earlier sentiments , and would not necessarily be well known to all the NC leaders. Glover ...otherwise occupied.. and I really can't see Davos at all.

I could see Davos, but as I've mentioned before, what would he do with Shaggydog? He'd only be there with Rickon and I don't know how he could contain that direwolf.

I think Harwin is excluded per the text.

[FittleLinger]

MW..I'm really can't buy Theon Durden , either.

FittleLinger .. I guess it got started from me saying I thought the crypts were a more likely entry point ( But I can see how it could have been the walls )...and it's partly because I feel the mystery about the crypts is really coming to a head.

For me , that would raise problems with the HM being Harwin ,because I don't think Harwin would know about a secret passage ( in our medieval castles they were kept very secret ) and perhaps couldn't use it if he did ( If it is like the Black Gate ).It appears ( if it's there ) even the current Starks didn't know before they all left WF ..That would mean if the HM is Harwin, he would have had to come over the wall.

I just prefer Benjen , through the crypts, courtesy of knowledge from the CoTF or Bloodraven...I see the drums and horns of the Umbers not so much as a distraction to cover the HM , but them reacting to a cue from him.. ( they don't start up until after Theon is questioned by Roose ) , maybe to fool those inside into thinking it's Stannis , or just to unsettle them ( well , it does that ), to force them to act.

I don't know ... maybe they'd planned to let Stannis (unknowingly) act as a distraction to Roose , making their assault easier.

I don't think Mance had an exact plan until he saw the lay of the land. He wanted to know how Theon took WF ... probably hoping there was some secret way in ( most castles would have some escape route for the ruling family , in case of seige ) but after they talk to Theon ,they take the wall,and there may be a difference from what he planned at CB, in that now he thinks it's safest to get "Arya" to Stannis.

I think both may be plausible, but I think if I was in the NC, I'd be looking for a way to get my men in there first. They'd still have to work with Stannis. But I'd be in a better position to make terms if Stannis was beholden to me, rather than the reverse. He couldn't make pronouncements , or maybe even demands , but really have to negotiate.

ETA: FL.. Yes, I definitely see Barbrey being connected to the HM .. both involved in the NC.

I don't think the crypts rule Harwin out. Because he works for Lady Stoneheart, who was Lady Stark before that, and I'd give her more than 50% chance of knowing those secret entrances. I mean, the Lord and Lady of the castle should know them in case of emergency, no? Harwin could have even known them before (more unlikely), but his connection to Stoneheart makes it a lot more likely. Oh, and also I don't think there is some special magic in the crypts themselves (a la the black gate), I think they will be/are important, but not on a straightforward magical level.

Another little clue (that may very well be unrelated, but still) about Harwin is that he was the stableboy, right? Well someone sabotaged the stables one of the nights (set it on fire I think?), so there may be something there.

@redriver As I've stated before, I like the Myrtle/Liddle connection in a weird way, but I don't necessarily connect it with the HM. I think it would have been phisically nearly impossible for Myrtle/Liddle to be an active participant in two covert ops at the same time (Spearwives and HM). Also, Theon recognizes the HM as definitely a man, so this means that either Liddle switches through disguises constantly (which would be very inconvenient) or that his disguise is not good at all in the first place.

ETA: MW - the only thing that could exclude Harwin completely are timelines, but they are a little sketchy, and George has admitted that he sometimes "speeds up" travels to fit the plot. I really don't see how Theon thinking Harwin dead excludes him, as, as we have explained before - we know Harwin is alive, Theon could have not recognized him, or he could really think he is a ghost.

[Mulled Wino]

I don't think the crypts rule Harwin out. Because he works for Lady Stoneheart, who was Lady Stark before that, and I'd give her more than 50% chance of knowing those secret entrances. I mean, the Lord and Lady of the castle should know them in case of emergency, no? Harwin could have even known them before (more unlikely), but his connection to Stoneheart makes it a lot more likely. Oh, and also I don't think there is some special magic in the crypts themselves (a la the black gate), I think they will be/are important, but not on a straightforward magical level.

Another little clue (that may very well be unrelated, but still) about Harwin is that he was the stableboy, right? Well someone sabotaged the stables one of the nights (set it on fire I think?), so there may be something there.

@redriver As I've stated before, I like the Myrtle/Liddle connection in a weird way, but I don't necessarily connect it with the HM. I think it would have been phisically nearly impossible for Myrtle/Liddle to be an active participant in two covert ops at the same time (Spearwives and HM). Also, Theon recognizes the HM as definitely a man, so this means that either Liddle switches through disguises constantly (which would be very inconvenient) or that his disguise is not good at all in the first place.

ETA: MW - the only thing that could exclude Harwin completely are timelines, but they are a little sketchy, and George has admitted that he sometimes "speeds up" travels to fit the plot. I really don't see how Theon thinking Harwin dead excludes him, as, as we have explained before - we know Harwin is alive, Theon could have not recognized him, or he could really think he is a ghost.

Harwin was the son of the master of horse, but close enough and a good point.

I like your argument against Liddle as well.

As far as the bold, seems a bit of a stretch. I mean, one chapeter he sees the hooded man (hypothetically harwin) and the next chapter he considers harwin dead. Sure, it "could" have been a ghost, just as maybe Bran could have been warging Theon so he doesn't see the real Harwin.

Could be a mistake by GRRM but I'm not going to bank on that. Plus we also have a very tough timeline, if AFFC and ADWD are running concurrently for the most part.

[FittleLinger]

Harwin was the son of the master of horse, but close enough and a good point.

I like your argument against Liddle as well.

As far as the bold, seems a bit of a stretch. I mean, one chapeter he sees the hooded man (hypothetically harwin) and the next chapter he considers harwin dead. Sure, it "could" have been a ghost, just as maybe Bran could have been warging Theon so he doesn't see the real Harwin.

Could be a mistake by GRRM but I'm not going to bank on that. Plus we also have a very tough timeline, if AFFC and ADWD are running concurrently for the most part.

Yeah, son of the master of horse, so if we assume he was "squiring" to inherit his father's job, he was something like the "chief stableboy" :).

About the Harwin thing - no, I'm not saying that Harwin is a ghost, I'm saying that Theon is f*cked up enough to think he saw a ghost. Nothing to do with any type of warging in terms of plausibilty. The chapter is called the Ghost of Winterfell. The obvious thing is that it refers to THeon's return, but we know Martin works on multiple levels most of the times. So, Theon, a mysterious killer (the spearwives and Mance as later revealed) as well as one murder that is unaccounted for. A mysterious figure in black. It would fit nicely if Theon thinks he saw a ghost there, and if we follow that theme, if later, when he "gets real" and realizes how many people have died, he mentions that ghost, as in realizing that what he saw was not real. (But it was).

And if this seems stretchy - there is an easier thing. A point is made by Theon himself right before he meets the HM, that the snow is so heavy (and I think it's dark on top of that) that he cannot see further than a meter or two. So he could have easily not recognized the HM. The HM recognized Theon, but Theon was not hooded (I think), and Theon comes out of a well-lit hall, so the perspective is in favor of the HM.

Whichever of those you pick, it seems entirely plausible for Theon to think Harwin is dead after the encounter.

The timelines are tough, I will give you that. But somehow unclear at the same time.

[Little and Less]

Harwin would be my guess as well. He knows WF, Theon (and Theon would have dealt with him a lot), would blend in easily, and he wouldn't be the first of the BWB to be dispatched and hiding in plain sight (like I think Tom is hiding in Jaime's army at Riverrun I believe - don't have my book handy). He could travel to WF swiftly given he's a great rider (he caught up with Arya pretty easily when she tried to escape - his dad was in charge of the horses at WF) and would probably know who in the North and on the Kings road would allow him safe passage (given his staus as a BWB and a Northman). Also he would be able to recognize "Arya" easily (and for all we know may have been sent there to "rescue" real Ayra too when the time was right). Also, I don't recall him hanging out with Lady Stoneheart's crew later in the books- but I have to reread these parts again).

Harwin not knowing the secret passages in the crypts doesn't necessarily exclude him - remember as far as we know he is a second generation WF stablehand; he may know other ways of getting into WF via the stables and the gates used by the horses and livestock. It wouldn't at all be surprising to find out that the oh so "secret" passages that Bran believes aren't known/common knowledge may actually be known by the servants of the castle, especially the ones that have been there for generations.

I don't put too much stock in Theon thinking he's dead - Theon probably thinks every man from WF is dead - he's a little screwed up in the head at the moment he meets the HM. (Besides him thinking Harwin is "dead" and a ghost actually works in favour of Theon showing the HM his deformed hand, something he hides constantly.)

I agree GRRM's timelines suck so its hard to ever figure out how fast anybody travels from place to place. But my bet is the HM will be Harwin. I'm with FittleLinger and booknerd2 on this one.

[Mulled Wino]

Here's another problem with Harwin supposedly knowing Winterfell so well. In GoT when Bran speaks about the secret path through the inner wall, he thinks "not even Maester Luwin would know abou this". I don't think we can just assume, per the text, that Harwin would know anything about an entrance via the crypts.

Obviously, this is only relevant if you believe that Harwin is coming in through the crypts or using secret passageways..

There are obviously multiple "ghosts" operating in the chapter, but nothing about that can be evidence for Harwin being the HM moreso than anyone else. We're going to have to just agree to disagree on the Harwin thing because I don't see any reason the GRRM would have Harwin come face to face with Theon, then have Theon mention that Harwin is dead the very next chapter. It weakens the Harwin argument drastically compared to the other guys.

I think you answered your own query about Theon having a hood on with the description of how bad the snow is. It's probably safe to assume everyone has a hood or something covering their head/face on.

[bemused]

Of course there could be a collapse in the lowest level ... in which case , we'd need more info from GRRM to begin to guess what all the crypt references are for...

But if we assume a passage does exist.. I don't think Cat knew ( another problem for Harwin as HM )... I don't think any Stark alive when the story started knew. Another case of important information forgotten over time , because it wasn't needed in times of relative safety.

Ned would have told Cat ( if not Cat and Robb) when he left for KL.

We don't see Cat tell Robb when she leaves.

Robb definitely doesn't tell Bran or Luwin when he leaves , otherwise the boys would have escaped that way.

So the knowledge would have to be reclaimed from say , BR / CoTF ( it's not the kind of thing that would be written down, anywhere ).

In our world such escape routes were so secret, perhaps as few as one or two people would know of them at any given time ..and definitely not household servants.They were built for the safety of the ruling families ( not all the occupants of the castle ) and only for use in times of dire threat...Before Theon , when was the last time WF was attacked , or under siege ?

I can't agree at all that Mance and the spearwives are revealed as the killer (s) my money is on Ramsay, for most.

Stannis doesn't force the northerners to worship R'Hllor, but he has to try to keep his own men happy too , so we see the sacrifice of the "cannibals". If I was a Northman , I wouldn't trust the situation , if he gained complete control. Ideally , I'd want to be in a position to demand that weirwoods be sacrosanct, and Northern laws / punishments be adhered to regarding my people.

I know , ideally..

[Rhymes with Chic]

I just spent a bzillion hours reading all these HM threads and I can't even believe it, but I'm declaring for team Theon Durden. :blushing:

[bemused]

No,no, read again ... ;)...I think that's the kind of thing that would be reserved for a main character, either hero or villain , because it demand more depth than has been given here. We'd see more of the gradual descent , more detail ( shudder) more examples of hallucinations.

[Rhaquentis]

It's The Stranger, in person :P

[Mulled Wino]

I just spent a bzillion hours reading all these HM threads and I can't even believe it, but I'm declaring for team Theon Durden. :blushing:

puhlleeeze tell me why. I don't get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!