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The Hooded Man new (?) theory...(possible spoilers)


BlueEyedCrow

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I just spent a bzillion hours reading all these HM threads and I can't even believe it, but I'm declaring for team Theon Durden. :blushing:

No,no, read again ... ;)...I think that's the kind of thing that would be reserved for a main character, either hero or villain , because it demand more depth than has been given here. We'd see more of the gradual descent , more detail ( shudder) more examples of hallucinations.

Agreed! If it is Theon Durden I'll eat my hat.

I think almost anyone else is fair game.

(I still think it is Robett most likely, but secretly hope it is Jaime or Osha)

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i'm also re-reading all of these threads. i still keep ruling out benjen. i just don't seem him deserting the NW, make his way through whatever secret tunnel is, and just meet up with theon by chance.

i'd give theon durden more of a shot but a part of me just thinks the whole split personality in movies/books is so played out at this point. I'm hoping GRRM feels the same way. It's a nice theory and does make a bit of sense, probably more sense then most. But I continually just go back to it being just a bit cliched and over done.

I like the idea of it being one of the Glovers.

And of course, Osha as I've previously mentioned earlier in the thread. Although, like I said in that post and another person pointed, HM had to much of a noble tongue.

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A Dance with Dragons - A Ghost in Winterfell/Theon Pages 611-612:

Farther on, he came upon a man striding in the opposite direction, a hooded cloak flapping behind him. When they found themselves face-to-face their eyes met briefly. The man put a hand on his dagger. "Theon Turncloack. Theon Kinslayer."

"I'm not. I never...I was ironborn."

"False is all you were. How is it you still breathe?"

"The gods are not done with me," Theon answered, wondering if this could be the killer, the night walker who had stuffed Yellow Dick's cock into his mouth and pushed Roger Ryswell's groom off the battlements. Oddly, he was not afraid. He pulled the glove from his left hand. "Lord Ramsay is not done with me."

The man looked, and laughed. "I leave you to him, then."

1. He is a Man

2. Hooded Cloak

3. Has a dagger (Note: Not a Sword)

4. Knows who Theon is by appearance

5. The words he says in order : "Theon Turncloak, Theon Kinslayer. False is all you were. How is it you still breathe? I leave you to him, then." (I feel this specifies that this person does not have knowledge of what was happening to Theon prior to Winterfell. I think this is an argument against Theon Durden.)

6. Laughed when he saw Theon's deformed hand.

Being called a Kinslayer:

Either the hooded man thinks Theon killed Bran and Rickon

or

Theon will eventually kill a member of his own family (Euron?) and be a Kinslayer at this point and the hooded man somehow forsees this. (Unlikely)

Theon Durden is unlikely as well. Theon himself, in any form, knows that he is not a kinslayer by any definition. Also, Theon in any form would know that his hand has been deformed. The hooded man had a dagger, there is no proof Theon had a dagger. It could very well be that Theon is an unreliable narrator but I don't feel this is his arc. He is redeeming himself, finding his humanity...I don't see it working that he has a split personality and I don't see GRRM giving Theon the exposure to fully flush this out in the next two books. Also MINOR SPOILER: There is no proof of Theon having any kind of spilt or other persona in any other chapter in ADWD or the sample Theon chapter pre-released for TWOW.

My longshot theory.

Petyr Baelish: Last seen in the Vale promising to help Sansa Stark regain the North. Littlefinger would have no knowledge of Bran and Rickon, many other Northmen do...on both sides by the way. Ramsay Bolton knows that Bran and Rickon aren't really dead. Baelish is the character who is most strongly associated with the weapon of a dagger throughout the entire series. The hooded man puts a hand on his dagger he doesn't pull his dagger, seems like the kind of action Littlefinger would make and an unlikely action for many other characters currently inside Winterfell to make towards Theon. The hooded man most likely hasn't killed anyone at Winterfell. The spearwives killed most of them and the Manderly's killed little Walder...wasn't little Walder supposed to marry a Manderly had he lived. Read the words that the hooded man said. With the proper inflection they can definatly sound like they are coming from Littlefinger. The hooded man is striding, an interesting word choice and I think can connect to Littlefinger. From the end of Sansa' chapter in AFFC to this Theon chapter in ADWD there is ample time for Petyr Baelish to make his way from the gates of the moon to Winterfell. A longshot for sure but more then enough supporting evidence to make a compelling argument.

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Corky Rogers... why would you think Benjen had deserted if he turned up in WF ? Unless, when we meet him, he has no intention of returning to the Wall, it's too soon to assume. He wouldn't be the first ranger to have been gone a long time. If he's there, it could be important for the Wall , too.

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The fact that they don't have a great need for statues very often as a big draw back to this theory. They either had a carver that lived inside of WF in which case he was killed or taken to DF or he lived in a near by village in which case he would not have that kind of access to WF.

My theory is that Raynald Westerling.

I am beginning to warm up to this theory. I finally broke down and re-read AFfC and one thing that stuck out to me during Jaime's resolution of the siege of Riverrun was his parlay with the Freys in which they said Raynald cut out Greywind from the net, was struck a few times with arrows and fell into the river. The text intimated that Jaime dreaded the thought he may still be alive.

IIRC Theon left to negotiate Robb's deal before Robb met the Westerlings, so Theon would have no basis to know Raynald. Because Roose Bolton's camp broke off from Robb and held Harrenhal, they know of the Westerlings, but may not have had the opportunity to identify him at the RW. Since they assume he is dead, he may be able to blend in as some nobody in Winterfell. He may have even seen Arya's wedding.

He would assume that Theon is a turncloak and a kinslayer because, though he is not bound by blood to the Starks, he is affiliated with the Starks through his sister's marriage. He would assume a ward would have similar levels of devotion. He also wouldn't know what the Northern nobles would about the youngest Stark boys not being dead.

As possibilities go, it is a longshot, but so many other ideas proffered don't add up either.

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No, we don't know Mance and the spearwives did the killings , at all. They're trying to keep a low profile, they don't want people all jittery and nervous, suspicious of anyone who might be doing anything unusual.

Didn't they pretty much admit to it?

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In my high opinion, HM =/= the person who killed Yellow Dick and Little Walder and so on. Don't we already know Mance and the spearwives did the killings? So... HM is either a Durden or perhaps just a random person. :/

The speaerwives admitted to all the killings except for Little Walder's. They were very passionate in saying they didn't kill Walder. To me both facts combined show us that what they say is the actual truth - it makes no sense to admit to some murders, deny one, and any part of what you're saying to not be true. Which is another point for Harwin IMO. IF he killed anyone, it would have been Little Walder, who is the only Frey victim.

No, we don't know Mance and the spearwives did the killings , at all. They're trying to keep a low profile, they don't want people all jittery and nervous, suspicious of anyone who might be doing anything unusual.

I don't get what you're saying, that they are admitting to murders they didn't do to cover the HM's ass, or am I completely misunderstanding?

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No, we don't know Mance and the spearwives did the killings , at all. They're trying to keep a low profile, they don't want people all jittery and nervous, suspicious of anyone who might be doing anything unusual.

We know about as much as we're gonna know. They admitted it Theon in the greathall but probably didn't want to explain the entire story considering their current company in the hall,.

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No, we don't know Mance and the spearwives did the killings , at all. They're trying to keep a low profile, they don't want people all jittery and nervous, suspicious of anyone who might be doing anything unusual.

Yes we do. They said as much to Theon.

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No, we don't know Mance and the spearwives did the killings , at all. They're trying to keep a low profile, they don't want people all jittery and nervous, suspicious of anyone who might be doing anything unusual.

We know about as much as we're gonna know. They admitted it Theon in the greathall but probably didn't want to explain the entire story considering their current company in the hall,.

They never actually say they killed anyone. They just do not deny it as adamantly as they deny killing Little Walder, a 9 year old child. it's plausible they did the killing of the 7 or so men before hand during the Ghost of Winterfell Chapter (also interesting they split these killings from the LW killing by chapters) But they are not the only suspects by far.

On my first read through they were the obvious choice to me since they were there to cause confusion and supposedly save "Arya", but the more I thought about it I have other ideas about it.

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Corky Rogers... why would you think Benjen had deserted if he turned up in WF ? Unless, when we meet him, he has no intention of returning to the Wall, it's too soon to assume. He wouldn't be the first ranger to have been gone a long time. If he's there, it could be important for the Wall , too.

Idk. With everything that's going on right now. It's hard for me to think that the NW won't consider that desertion. Didn't they lose men trying to search for him. Also, if he's been that far up north for so long, he would've noticed the Wildlings are all but gone, the Others are on the move, where would they be heading...the wall. He's such a well regarded ranger, I'd think, he would even know they might need his help.

But you might have a point that maybe there's a reason bigger then the others/wildlings at the wall that would make him bypass all that is going on there to go to WF. If so, then what could it be?

Don't get me wrong, if its Benjen, that'd be great. It'd probably add a new layer to the story. I just honestly don't think it is.

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They never actually say they killed anyone. They just do not deny it as adamantly as they deny killing Little Walder, a 9 year old child. it's plausible they did the killing of the 7 or so men before hand during the Ghost of Winterfell Chapter (also interesting they split these killings from the LW killing by chapters) But they are not the only suspects by far.

On my first read through they were the obvious choice to me since they were there to cause confusion and supposedly save "Arya", but the more I thought about it I have other ideas about it.

Oh no, please, not another Theon Durden is doing is...nooooooooo!!!!

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The question is, "Why". Why would they not be adamant they didn't do all of them, what's the purpose? Why risk jeopardizing their game if they really didn't do it?

And come on, they admitted, if we want everything spelled out, we are not getting anywhere. From what I remember in the text it was pretty clear they meant "We did it, except Walder".

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As I reread the above portion of the book - it is also interesting that Theon says "the gods" - just a feeling, but doesn't it feel like he is referring to the old gods there (not the Seven or the drowned god of the Ironborn) like he's speaking to a Northener?

The HM also puts his hand on his dagger immediately - like he was worried that Theon would recognize him.

Also the HM laughs at Theon - wasn't Harwin constantly laughing at Arya when she was with the BWB? The laugh always bugs me from the description above - instead of being grossed out/horrified, the HM laughs. I mean Harwin may be use to seeing deformities - he's hung out with UnCat and UnBeric, a few lost fingers may not be such a big deal. I know its a stretch...

Theon being "unafraid" makes me also think that he knew the HM would not harm him, probably either 1. he thought the HM was dead and a ghost....or 2. he was a past servant. Or a combo of both?

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In Defence of the Spearwives...Why they would not proclaim their innocence to Theon.

The spearwives are trying to get Theon to talk to Mance..They got exactly nowhere with him before , by using (the promise of) sex . So if fear works better ,that's OK with them. They don't really care what Theon thinks of them , so long as they get what they're after....Having said that ...

I can see how they might be responsible for a killing or two, if someone had twigged to their plans , but I think a sort of escalating "reign of terror" would work against them. There's one I'd be inclined to possibly nail them with , and that's the naked guy ( Aenys' " grizzled" squire ?) ...Don't forget Theon sees one of them, naked under a fur, dallying with a Ryswell . The spearwives would not have been assigned quarters, so they'd have to pick their spots to ply their craft ... The lichyard would at least have little traffic...and "grizzled" implies age, so there's a chance that death could actually have been accidental , even if they were involved. ( age + drink + cold + sex = a dangerous situation ) ;)

It's very possible that the collapse of the Stables was really due to the weight of the snow . If not , it seems like a very large task for them , and very risky... not something one of them could have accomplished surreptitiously. As soon as they're in a group, they're conspicuous.

All they say about Yellow Dick is that he was a pig of a man. They certainly weren't sorry to see him go. But again ,his killing would probably have required more than one of them , and their comment to Theon that they're here to be fucked , not feared has the ring of truth as to their intent ... While their revulsion for YD definitely seems to stem from one or more of them having to get intimate with him , it doesn't necessarily mean they killed him. ..For sure , he disgusted them , but they say no more than that.

"This is no work of ours", spoken to Mance ( who would want to keep a low profile ) , could ,I think, tend to implicate them in the case of Aeny's groom ; the denial to Mance being necessary because the groom and LW were both Freys ...so he might be suspicious if he knew they were somehow involved in the first , intentional or not.

The HM doesn't seem like the killer to me either , except a first glance... He , too , would want to avoid notice, I'd think ( whatever his mission is )... Most of the killings take place before he appears, and if he's involved with the NC , it's odd that most of the victims are other northmen ( not Boltons).

One of Theon's very first thoughts about the murders links them to Ramsay's past activities. If we follow that thought , it makes a much more reasonable case .. for me , anyway.

In ADWD we learn that Ramsay and Roose are very much at odds . Roose wants to play it cautiously ( don't threaten Lady D, watch your mouth , let Stannis come to them , " A quiet land.. " etc.) Ramsay just wants to have at it ( wed and bed Arya right away , do threaten , do spread fear, go after Stannis immediately ). We also learn that all Ramsay's men owe loyalty to Roose first . Besides the tactical side of it , Ramsay is chafing at having to restrict his personal lusts and indulgences. From his perspective , he employed "reign of terror " tactics before to great effect.

IIRC , None of the victims in WF are Bolton men ( not sure about the lowly grooms ), until we get to YD. None are truly Ramsay's, until we get to Little Walder. Just before the shit really hits the fan , we see lady Dustin try to get the message through to Ramsay ( via Theon) to cool it with "Arya". She says Roose is unhappy about it too. ..Next thing we know, YD is killed in a very vicious , vindictive way... Might Roose have tried to get YD to influence Ramsay as well ? I think he might...How would Ramsay like YD aligning himself with Roose ? That identifies a motive, and the method is very compatible with Ramsay.

Afterwards , Roose tries to hush the murder up ..but Ramsay goes out of his way to use YD's death to stir things up further.. if Ramsay's men are all Roose's they would now all obey Roose..except LW, who didn't come to Ramsay through Roose and is really becoming Ramsay's acolyte... So, LW has to go...

It all culminates in a number of clues in quick succession ; a vehement argument between Roose and Ramsay which terrifies Walda ( what threats , accusations or revelations were made ?)... the discovery of LW's body .. and Roose's easy acceptance of Big Walder's very sketchy story, complete with the anomalous appearance of the blood .. that on LW's body and that on BW.

Roose seems set to let Manderly take the fall for the killings and thus relieve tension. Then Arnolf's raven arrives , and his strategy changes.

This is what makes me think Ramsay is responsible for most of the killings with the possible exception of the Frey squire and the stables, right up to LW who, I think,was done in by BW , with the blessing of Roose and possibly his involvement and planning .

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