Could Rhaego be Alive?

[Yakman]

there's crack pot and then there's....

[Damon_Tor]

I think some of the handmaidens see the dead infant too.

It's implied they see it, (Jorah described the infant in terms of what "the women say") but it's unlikely any saw the actual birth. Remember that no Dothraki would go near the tent. If MMD offered some preserved specimen from her medicine chest to them as the infant, they would have been able to describe it well enough.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Mostly, I suspect this because we saw no body, we only heard of the event second-hand. Also, of all the prophecies in the novels, the ones concerning Rhaego are the only ones that simply CANNOT come true. No other visions are "what might have been" except those about Rhaego... why? Other visions have been MISINTERPRETED, sure, but with every one we could later go back and say "Okay, so Renly's ghost didn't ACTUALLY lead the army, the vision was of someone else in his armor" and so on. There are, as far as I can tell, ZERO other prophecies which are flat out wrong. Why? As a writer, why would Martin do this, make every other prophecy, (and prophets in ASoIaF are a dime a dozen, from fools to warlocks to fiddlers to priests) come true, but leave only the ones concerning a single individual unable to come to pass?

Remember that seers were afraid? Maybe they saw Dany instead Rhaego, but couldn't tell that to Drogo.

[ArabellaVidal]

I get that there are narrative pointers that question Dany's reading of MMD's magic and intentions but Rhaego being alive does not seem to be the answer to the riddle. There have to be more clues to his fate in the text, especially if he is alive, since that's how Martin writes. The Stallion that Mounts the World seems more like a reference to a dragon, one of those hatched as a consequence of Rhaego and Drogo's deaths.

[Tommen]

Even if he was still alive, it'd be difficult for him to return to power after spending such a long time in obscurity. If we look at other exiled Westerosi children, they all had well known benefactors and witnesses who could vouch for their legitimacy. Between them Dany and Viserys have had Ser Willem Darry, Oberyn Martell, the Sealord of Braavos, Magister Illyrio, Jorah Mormont, Barristan Selmy and probably many high profile figures in between; Aegon has Jon Connington and Illyrio and the Blackfyre pretenders all had connections to incumbent lords. Couldn't anyone try and pass off a random baby as Rhaego?

[Lady Woodland]

I'm with you on this one I believe that he's alive too, or at the very least GRRM was leaving his options open at the time with a view of the potential 5 year gap that never happened. MasterJack has another thread that crops up too with the same argument it's definitely a mystery and too messy to be finished like it was.

If that was the end you would have to say it was poor writing & I don't believe GRRM does that - although he does deliberately obfuscate & drive us mad with the never ending theories lol....

Three things for me make the scenario a lie,

Jorah, he can't even look at Dany & tell her truthfully what happened, in his narrative, he never says he saw the body, he mumbles "they women say" like you said - the dothraki handmaids & even Doreah were deathly afraid to enter the tent. So my best guess is he did something to spirit Rhaego away - he had a couple of reasons for this, - He wanted Dany for himself sexually, & her baby would take her attention IF the Dothraki allowed it to live. He could also have done it as the only way to save the baby's life because his love for her.

No Funeral Pyre for the baby, Dany went to a great deal of trouble to kill another horse (they would have been precious comodoties after the rest of the Khalasar left) yet no special treatment for the body of he beloved Khal's child to go with him into the Nightlands?? very odd.

MMD's own words "he was full of graveworms he died long ago" We know this is an outright lie, Dany's labour pains where she feels the baby kicking so strongly before she enters the tent she can't even speak or cry out.

Even if he was still alive, it'd be difficult for him to return to power after spending such a long time in obscurity. If we look at other exiled Westerosi children, they all had well known benefactors and witnesses who could vouch for their legitimacy. Between them Dany and Viserys have had Ser Willem Darry, Oberyn Martell, the Sealord of Braavos, Magister Illyrio, Jorah Mormont, Barristan Selmy and probably many high profile figures in between; Aegon has Jon Connington and Illyrio and the Blackfyre pretenders all had connections to incumbent lords. Couldn't anyone try and pass off a random baby as Rhaego?

Not difficult at all - we have had two separate visions of a grown Rhaego - once on the funeral pyre for Drogo & again in the HotU, both times he is described in detail & would be instantly recognisable if he lived.

A tall copper skinned youth with almond shaped violet eyes & long silver blond hair. Very hard to find a child that looked like that. Dany would know him immediately.

What his return would add to the story at this stage I can't guess at but I don't believe it's impossible he wont show up. Maybe with Dany's current arc getting darker & her seeming to get harder hearted in her last few chapters indicating her inner conqueror - finding Rhaego alive may be her redemption.

[Varya Lemoncake]

I love the theory! Sounds quite plausible for me, though there's one thing that I'm not sure about. :idea:

I guess it's very likely that Martin gave the show screenwriters a handful of 'very important events' spoilers, so I just want to refer to the show.

In the episode where Dany goes to the House of the Undying she sees Drogo cradling a dothraki baby in his arms (not even a hint of silver hair, baby hair, maybe?). And then did she realise that it's glimpse of the future that cannot be and leaves the room. It's kind of a tricky vision for me. Either it's a sweet lie by Pyat or a glipse of possible future.

On the other hand Drogo is dead-dead-dead, there's no way he could've escaped from the pyre.

But I still love the theory!

[Lady Woodland]

@Varya Lemoncake,

Acutally that's a very good point, we are not supposed to discuss the show on this particular part of the series but that scene was not in the book (in fact very little of it is accurate) however if we suppose that it was, a vision of what could be (if she stayed in the room) both Drogo & Rhaego are alive & she could be with them.

Wierdly D&D may have just confirmed that he is really dead. :crying:

[Varya Lemoncake]

Acutally that's a very good point, we are not supposed to discuss the show on this particular part of the series

I know, I just couldn't help it. :blushing:

I believe it's not for naught they apply certain changes and add-ons to the plot when making a show.

There's another thing that's just occured to me. We assume that Rhaego would have dothraki looks only with purple eyes and silver hair, because Dany saw him that way in her post labour dream. Technically it could be but just a vision produced by a feverish mind. And in terms of genes I guess the black would certainly prevail for hair colour. Targ genes seem recessive eventually (Rhaenys takes after Elia, and if R+L=J, Robert with Targ grandmother)

Anyhow, I've got a point and I'm getting to it! I believe Rhaego can easily look like an ordinary dothraki child, maybe with hints of purple in his eyes or a streak of silver hair to be recognised by his mother. Which makes the whole thing even more complicated. :dunno:

[Damon_Tor]

or at the very least GRRM was leaving his options open at the time with a view of the potential 5 year gap that never happened.

This is a very interesting point, and one that I really hadn't considered: we know that at one point he had planned for this gap. This means that he may well have been planning for Rhaego to survive, but now that plan has changed in some way.

In the episode where Dany goes to the House of the Undying she sees Drogo cradling a dothraki baby in his arms (not even a hint of silver hair, baby hair, maybe?). And then did she realise that it's glimpse of the future that cannot be and leaves the room. It's kind of a tricky vision for me. Either it's a sweet lie by Pyat or a glipse of possible future.

On the other hand Drogo is dead-dead-dead, there's no way he could've escaped from the pyre.

But I still love the theory!

The entire House of the Undying sequence was entirely different from the novel: we got our most extensive first-person prophecies from that chapter, none of which made it to the show at all. The vision of Drogo and Rhaego was most likely not supposed to be prophetic at all, it was simply an illusion, a trick to keep Dany from leaving, and as such, should not be taken as a sign one way or the other as to Rhaego's survival.

[Lady Woodland]

This is a very interesting point, and one that I really hadn't considered: we know that at one point he had planned for this gap. This means that he may well have been planning for Rhaego to survive, but now that plan has changed in some way.

The entire House of the Undying sequence was entirely different from the novel: we got our most extensive first-person prophecies from that chapter, none of which made it to the show at all. The vision of Drogo and Rhaego was most likely not supposed to be prophetic at all, it was simply an illusion, a trick to keep Dany from leaving, and as such, should not be taken as a sign one way or the other as to Rhaego's survival.

I have to agree, I really get pissed with the whole HotU vision from the show, It's completely different, I've heard poster's say because TV is so visual it would give the whole plot away & I understand that but still frustrated.

so now I have to consider there's actually 4 hint's that Rhaego is alive:

Jorah never "saw" the body & Dany took him at his word due to her guilt over what she'd done.

No body & no funeral pyre for baby Rhaego.

MMD definitely lied, Rhaego was alive & kicking before she was carried into the tent.

2 visions detailed the same of Rhaego as a young youth. - Perhaps the second one in the HotU when he's leading a battle is for aDoS - we really don't know how many years will elapse before winter is over :)

[PirateVergo]

He is not alive and no one want him in the story anyway, he would have been the biggest murderer/rapist on earth.

[Lady Woodland]

He is not alive and no one want him in the story anyway, he would have been the biggest murderer/rapist on earth.

Well you are entitled to an opinion. What part of the books are you quoting?

[Damon_Tor]

2 visions detailed the same of Rhaego as a young youth. - Perhaps the second one in the HotU when he's leading a battle is for aDoS - we really don't know how many years will elapse before winter is over :)

IIRC, Martin confirmed that he's no longer including a time jump, which means that "A Dream of Spring" will most likely be just that: a dream. I expect that the "bittersweet" ending we've been told to expect will simply be an understanding that the prophecies are in motion which will bring spring again, not that we will actually see spring arrive. As such, we won't be seeing an Adult Rhaego, but we'll be left with the knowledge that he (and his siblings) will grow up to push back the Others.

[Lady Woodland]

IIRC, Martin confirmed that he's no longer including a time jump, which means that "A Dream of Spring" will most likely be just that: a dream. I expect that the "bittersweet" ending we've been told to expect will simply be an understanding that the prophecies are in motion which will bring spring again, not that we will actually see spring arrive. As such, we won't be seeing an Adult Rhaego, but we'll be left with the knowledge that he (and his siblings) will grow up to push back the Others.

Yeah, I've never liked the title, it always seemed to me to be a bit optimistic without a huge amount of time passing, so a dream would make most sense without a huge leap in time. I do recall him scrapping the gap but thought he might just put it in later in the series,

One of the thing's I find a bit annoying is that we have such long book's however only a short amount of time has passed (about 2 - 3 years IIRC?) it seems it could have been spun out a bit longer by GRRM, It might have eliminated some of the conjecture about timeline's too, especially Cat's travels. WF, KL, The Eyrie, RR, visit to SE to see Renly etc, etc. Did she have a magic broom? lol...

[Rorey Targaryen]

If by alive, you mean reincarnated into one of the Dragons, possibly.

Otherwise, I highly doubt any possibility that he would be. If he was, what purpose would it serve?

[Ulthosian Stark]

Heh. Never really thought of this one, I guess Rhaego would have been a good hostage to dissuade dragonfire but nobody knew shed have dragons until after he was "dead". I mean cmon, he'd not even be able to form full sentences by the end if the series so he wouldn't make much a development unless he was directly used against Dany somehow.

*right before Dany on Balerion roasts jhaqos khalasar he holds up a child, with copper skin like drogo and her own silver hair*

[Lady Woodland]

Heh. Never really thought of this one, I guess Rhaego would have been a good hostage to dissuade dragonfire but nobody knew shed have dragons until after he was "dead". I mean cmon, he'd not even be able to form full sentences by the end if the series so he wouldn't make much a development unless he was directly used against Dany somehow.

*right before Dany on Balerion roasts jhaqos khalasar he holds up a child, with copper skin like drogo and her own silver hair*

& @ Rorey Targaryen,

Well just because he's a baby doesn't mean there would be no story line. Babies murdered after a usurper takes the throne. Young man turns up having been educated as a prince by two shady individuals & is purportedly Aegon son of Rhaegar. Baby born to a "Wildling King" - swapped with another & sent away to Oldtown for safety. Unless you are GRRM, you can hardly suppose you know what he intends IF anything at all.

We are merely suggesting he seems to have clearly left his options option by not providing a conclusive resolution to this issue with the dialog we have been given.

[Consigliere]

Rhaego is dead, dead, dead.

[Talking Hodor]

I'm pretty sure Drogo, Rhaego, and Mirri were burned in the pyre in order to awaken three dragons from their petrified eggs. Whether Daenerys meant to do that or not, that's what it took - a life for a life.