RhaenysBee Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 yes seriously westerners have always had problems realizing that they are not the center of the world. arabs, africans, just because they live differently from us doesnt mean we should automatically assuming they are wrong or evil because they see things differently. the literary device is obviously there, the dark skinned barbarian doing things that are savage and crude and making us uncomfortable. we should be more open minded in my opinion. :agree: people are not very politically correct with Drogo... What if he had a troubled childhood? :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMysteriousOne Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 yes seriously westerners have always had problems realizing that they are not the center of the world. arabs, africans, just because they live differently from us doesnt mean we should automatically assuming they are wrong or evil because they see things differently. the literary device is obviously there, the dark skinned barbarian doing things that are savage and crude and making us uncomfortable. we should be more open minded in my opinion.I do respect people's cultures, and I find every culture of the world interesting, but that doesn't make them 'good'. I am of Nigerian descent, (2nd generation American), and even though I love the culture of my ancestors, it is very vibrant, colorful and amazing, some of it is not very 'good', I'm not saying it's evil, it's a very beautiful culture, but some of the things they did in the past were not good, and mostly because they did not understand many of the things that are now common sense for us in the 21st century. Some tribes in Nigeria used to kill twins because they were considered abominations because they believed that humans should only give birth to one baby at one time; and they believed this because of their lack of knowledge, obviously this doesn't happen anymore, but it did.Western society has it's faults also, every culture does. But just because a group of people believe that something is right, doesn't mean that it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 yes seriously westerners have always had problems realizing that they are not the center of the world. arabs, africans, just because they live differently from us doesnt mean we should automatically assuming they are wrong or evil because they see things differently. the literary device is obviously there, the dark skinned barbarian doing things that are savage and crude and making us uncomfortable. we should be more open minded in my opinion.Actually white people were the barbarians until 400 years ago, Europe was a backwards mess and the greatest civilizations were in India, China, and Japan. That said, some things are just wrong. Forcing small children to fellate you is one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sansa Stark Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Well, first off, I'm not arguing with anybody. I don't exactly see myself going up against you, he, Lady Sansa and Kitkat. I don't debates I know I will lose, you just outnumber me, so I'll not go into how Drogo and Daenerys are not a "rape fantasy". I didn't find Drogo and Daenerys troubling, I really liked them from the very start of the series and I won't really admit to being a sexually disturbed psycho, socio, whatevero whatever (boy, I so make sense tonight...) because I know loads of people who agree with my point. Well, we are different, we need to deal with that.And for like the fifth time. All I said was that historical realism or unrealism can't be an argument either against or for Drogo and Daenerys or any other relationship like that in general, because A Song of Ice and Fire is a fiction. Basically I never even disagreed with PatrickStormborn in this question.Well, we didn't exactly argue that Drogo and Daenerys' relationship was wrong because of the historical realism/unrealism, did we? ;) At least my posts were about that a 13-year-old girl with a 28-year-old guy isn't exactly a normal love relationship, especially not considering she was crying every night in her pillow because he hurt her so much. That's why I find the whole Drogo-Daenerys-relationship so ultimately wrong. Especially in the beginning.yes seriously westerners have always had problems realizing that they are not the center of the world. arabs, africans, just because they live differently from us doesnt mean we should automatically assuming they are wrong or evil because they see things differently. the literary device is obviously there, the dark skinned barbarian doing things that are savage and crude and making us uncomfortable. we should be more open minded in my opinion.We do not automatically assume they are wrong or evil because they see things differently. You were the one who came up with ''dark skinned people'' while we never even talked about that. It isn't even the issue here though, as criticizing cultures is completely normal to do. Heck, if I may generalize, the Western culture has been criticized so bad by every other culture that I don't even go into that argument. Fact remains that it's completely valid to call child-offerings disgusting, and pedophiliac things with boys (the situation in your first post) as well - Such things are not worthy of my respect. Call me a bad Westerner if you like, or even a disrespectful one, but moral relativism is only valid up to a point. We can't put everything in perspective in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 If you can't criticize culture humanity can never advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkantos Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Actually white people were the barbarians until 400 years ago, Europe was a backwards mess and the greatest civilizations were in India, China, and Japan.Where'd you get this from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Where'd you get this from?reading history? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I mean I know the Brits and Germans like the claim cultural kinship with the greeks and romans but calling the Greeks and Romans, whose main rivals were in persia, Egypt, North Africa, etc. white is a bit silly. They have closer cultural kinship to Arabs than Northern Europeans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter George Stewart Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 yes seriously westerners have always had problems realizing that they are not the center of the world. arabs, africans, just because they live differently from us doesnt mean we should automatically assuming they are wrong or evil because they see things differently. the literary device is obviously there, the dark skinned barbarian doing things that are savage and crude and making us uncomfortable. we should be more open minded in my opinion.You've got it back-asswards. It's not other peoples' "acting differently" or "seeing things differently" that's the problem, it's when and if they see things wrongly and/or act wrongly.Difference is great, vive la difference - and those differences can go quite deep. It's when you get to things that go against common humanity that you get a problem.Basically, it's nothing to do with skin colour, it's to do with cultures and ideas. Cultures and ideas animate people to do things. If what cultures and ideas animate people to do are bad, then the cultures or ideas are criticizeable, regardless of skin colour or location in the world, or ancientness of tradition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roose Seal Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Actually white people were the barbarians until 400 years ago, Europe was a backwards mess and the greatest civilizations were in India, China, and Japan.400 years ago was the Golden Age of Europe, what with the Renaissance and all. If you want to see Europe as a backwards mess, go back 600 years more... or forward 400 years. :DAnyway, I find that storyline pretty disturbing as well. A 13 year old forcibly married to a man more than twice her age and taking it every night in ways that made her cry of pain is not right in any sort of way. I don't care if that's how 'other cultures' feel about it. In Europe, the Catholic Church burned women at the stake just cause someone said they were a witch. This might have been the culture at the time, but it's fucking wrong. And look at that, they were all white!There are things that are objectively very wrong, regardless of culture and color of skin. Raping 13 year old girls is precisely one of those things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 You've got it back-asswards. It's not other peoples' "acting differently" or "seeing things differently" that's the problem, it's when and if they see things wrongly and/or act wrongly.Difference is great, vive la difference - and those differences can go quite deep. It's when you get to things that go against common humanity that you get a problem.Basically, it's nothing to do with skin colour, it's to do with cultures and ideas. Cultures and ideas animate people to do things. If what cultures and ideas animate people to do are bad, then the cultures or ideas are criticizeable, regardless of skin colour or location in the world, or ancientness of tradition.Amen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 400 years ago was the Golden Age of Europe, what with the Renaissance and all. If you want to see Europe as a backwards mess, go back 600 years more... or forward 400 years. :DAnyway, I find that storyline pretty disturbing as well. A 13 year old forcibly married to a man more than twice her age and taking it every night in ways that made her cry of pain is not right in any sort of way. I don't care if that's how 'other cultures' feel about it.In Europe, the Catholic Church burned women at the stake just cause someone said they were a witch. This might have been the culture at the time, but it's fucking wrong. And look at that, they were all white!There are things that are objectively very wrong, regardless of culture and color of skin. Raping 13 year old girls is precisely one of those things.I wouldn't consider the renaissance, in which almost the entire population of europe spent their entire lives on a farm in some tiny village, the golden age of Europe. That was the 1700-1912 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 ]She didn't even think of her dead husband! If you loved your dead husband, your "sun and stars" so much, you're probably going to think about them a bit when engaging in intercourse with the second man you've ever had sex with. And I don't recall that happened...it seems like she's completely forgotten about him.Um, I can tell you now, you're not really going to be thinking of dead people when you're having sex, mate. This was three years after Drogo had died, I say she can have sex with whoever she wants, I never got the Dany/Daario hatred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roose Seal Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I wouldn't consider the renaissance, in which almost the entire population of europe spent their entire lives on a farm in some tiny village, the golden age of Europe. That was the 1700-1912Well to be fair, almost the entire population of the world spent their entire lives on a farm before the Industrialization. All those other civilizations you mentioned were majoritarily agrarian as well.Heck, even China nowadays is an agrarian country by a wide majority and it doesn't prevent it from being the most rapidly growing economies in the world.But we digress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sansa Stark Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I wouldn't consider the renaissance, in which almost the entire population of europe spent their entire lives on a farm in some tiny village, the golden age of Europe. That was the 1700-19121700-1912 wasn't that good as well. Working conditions, 9-year-olds working 16 hours a day, their houses were shit, etc. The Renaissance can rightly be called the Golden Age of Europe, I think. The Golden Age in the Netherlands was from 1585-1672, for example. After that, some things got worse. Same as in the rest of Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 The age difference doesn't bother me TOO much and I don't have a strong aversion to the relationship, many of the arranged marriages in this series are much the same in the regards of age and circumstance, so to dislike this one much more doesn't make a lot of sense to me. However, I appreciate the ''stockholme syndrone'' opinions, because that makes a lot of sense, but I also feel she did love him and he did allow her to become her own person and mature sexually and as a woman. That said, no; I don't like the thought of a young girl being sold off to a stranger and having to have sex, but I do also believe she came to love him in her own way. And reading about the start of the relationship when she was in a lot of pain and crying made me very uncomfortable, but she deals with the situation and although I detest the fact anyone would have to 'accept' this, she does and then she realises this is a completely different culture to her own and that he is not an evil person.Love does not have any rules, there is not one type of love, there are many, many different types of love and I do think Dany loved Drogo.I can perfectly accept people having different opinions and I also do not see this as a disney romance (those arguing about the fairy tale romance might want to look up some actual, original fairy tales and you'll see how gruesome they can be ;))I do think it was a complicated relationship and it wasn't a simple love, but I do think there was love in this marriage. She certainly grew to love and appreciate the Dothraki culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willy york Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 it's when and if they see things wrongly and/or act wrongly.so who is this all mighty authority that determines when a culture is seeing things or doing thing "wrongly"? is it you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Well to be fair, almost the entire population of the world spent their entire lives on a farm before the Industrialization. All those other civilizations you mentioned were majoritarily agrarian as well.Heck, even China nowadays is an agrarian country by a wide majority and it doesn't prevent it from being the most rapidly growing economies in the world.But we digress.Indeed, I just wanted to argue about the Renaissance being the golden age. I think clearly the post-Reformation era was better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkantos Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 reading history?Apparently not ancient history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 1700-1912 wasn't that good as well. Working conditions, 9-year-olds working 16 hours a day, their houses were shit, etc. The Renaissance can rightly be called the Golden Age of Europe, I think. The Golden Age in the Netherlands was from 1585-1672, for example. After that, some things got worse. Same as in the rest of Europe.1700-1912 wasn't that good as well. Working conditions, 9-year-olds working 16 hours a day, their houses were shit, etc. The Renaissance can rightly be called the Golden Age of Europe, I think. The Golden Age in the Netherlands was from 1585-1672, for example. After that, some things got worse. Same as in the rest of Europe.That didn't really occur till the Industrial Revolution, which despite its horrors massively reduced hunger and disease for Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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