Sansa and Littlefinger - Is She Buying It?

[Elba the Intoner]

Apple Martini I like your thinking. And now to answer the OP, thank you Eadaoin for mentioning my post about Sansa coming down from the Eyrie. Here's what I wrote there:

I don't see her buying into LF's plans at all nor do I view it as Stockholm Syndrome. She specifically thinks that she'll tell him "Lies and Arbor Gold" before saying, "I am Alayne father who else would I be". She is learning to manipulate LF by using the same tactics he is teaching her, to figure out what men want so you can control them. Also, Sansa is moving closer and closer to her Stark identity as time goes on. Her very last chapter as Alayne in Feast, has her thinking as Sansa specifically that the wind howling sounds like a wolf and that's what gives her the strength to cross the land saddle with a sick boy in tow. She spends the most time in a godswood of all the kids, she wants the great Sept of Baelor burned down, and she thinks a lot like Ned. She builds Winterfell out of snow and thinks about how she is stronger in the walls of Winterfell.

Furthermore, I think there were quite a few things in that very last Alayne chapter in Feast besides that which suggest that she is not buying the BS Petyr is feeding her. I mentioned that she hears the wind howling and thinks as Sansa that it sounds like a wolf, as one example, there was also her thought that it would be sweet to see Jon again and her negative physical reaction to LF's Harry the Heir proposal in which her throat closed up. As for how she treated Sweetrobin in giving him some sweet sleep before they head out of the Eyrie, I think GRRM made that situation intentionally ambiguous. Yes, it's dangerous to give him the sweetsleep and the Maester told her so, but they had to get down the mountain and she could not have Sweetrobin seizing the entire way down. The impression I got is that it was a judgment call and that having a little bit of the drink was necessary. I am hopeful that from what we have seen with her getting closer to her Stark roots as time goes on that she will not end up buying into LF's plot which would necessarily entail Sweetrobin's murder.

[The Great Walrus]

@Elba the Intoner, you have to like Apple's thinking, otherwise she will destroy you...

[Notfadeaway]

I think Sansa is more worried about the outside world at this point. Keep in mind that she has been imprisoned in KL for the entire length of the series. Now LF has gone through incredible lengths to whisk her away to the Vale, kill Lysa in her defense, and he seems smitten with her based on her likeness with her mother. I think, while she's on her guard with LF, she knows LF is her bitch right now. He's risked so much and she's clearly his Ace in the Hole. She knows he's planning something big so she's playing low profile. Watching, waiting, learning. She's going to throw a BIG stick in the wheels of his little revolution. Her biggest concern is being found out too soon and being returned to her imprisonment under the Lions.

I don't think she's buying it, I think she's paying attention as a player now.

[Éadaoin]

Apple Martini I like your thinking. And now to answer the OP, thank you Eadaoin for mentioning my post about Sansa coming down from the Eyrie. Here's what I wrote there:

Furthermore, I think there were quite a few things in that very last Alayne chapter in Feast besides that which suggest that she is not buying the BS Petyr is feeding her. I mentioned that she hears the wind howling and thinks as Sansa that it sounds like a wolf, as one example, there was also her thought that it would be sweet to see Jon again and her negative physical reaction to LF's Harry the Heir proposal in which her throat closed up. As for how she treated Sweetrobin in giving him some sweet sleep before they head out of the Eyrie, I think GRRM made that situation intentionally ambiguous. Yes, it's dangerous to give him the sweetsleep and the Maester told her so, but they had to get down the mountain and she could not have Sweetrobin seizing the entire way down. The impression I got is that it was a judgment call and that having a little bit of the drink was necessary. I am hopeful that from what we have seen with her getting closer to her Stark roots as time goes on that she will not end up buying into LF's plot which would necessarily entail Sweetrobin's murder.

I agree with you - I've also gotten the impression that she has been getting closer to her Stark roots. At first I thought that this conflicted in an odd way with the taking on of the Alayne persona, but perhaps K3 is right and Alayne is a way for Sansa to "spread her wings", so to speak. Either way, this thread has made me more hopeful.

[Elba the Intoner]

I'm glad it's made you more hopeful. Me too actually. ;) Someone mentioned on here that Sansa and Arya are on similar parallels. I also happened to mention something about this today in another thread which I'll post here too as it relates how I hope they will react to their respective moral crises in the future -

Sansa is on the verge of a moral precipice as to how she will treat Sweetrobin in the future. Arya has a very similar character arc too. She is on a moral precipice as well, both girls are in danger of losing their Stark identities, both girls are under the influence of morally corrupting mentors, both girls are being taught how to lie, but I see that they also both have little indicators that they will ultimately remember who they are and turn away from the dark side. Arya has kept needle and has her wolf dreams for instance and Sansa the three things I already mentioned.

As for Tze's post about Jon and Sansa, I have read it before and go back to it from time to time. It is an amazing read!

[franko99]

I love both of the actors and I love the TV show but the way they handled San/San really, really disappointed me too :(

I also think he was going for the Beauty and the Beast angle too.

I guess they didn't want to risk to go further, even if they try to make it more subtle, tv viewers may feel unconfortable with an older guy and an underage girl, she's suposed to be 13. Some things work on books but not on TV (actually there's a lot of readers who find SanSan repulsive in books as well XD)

Mycah.

He was doing his job, as far as he know, Mycah attacked the prince. I'm not trying to justify his action, who he did what he have to do as Joffrey's sworn shield.

ETA: all I can add to this thread is that I sooo miss the like button lol

[Kittykatknits]

I agree with you - I've also gotten the impression that she has been getting closer to her Stark roots. At first I thought that this conflicted in an odd way with the taking on of the Alayne persona, but perhaps K3 is right and Alayne is a way for Sansa to "spread her wings", so to speak. Either way, this thread has made me more hopeful.

Lots of reason to hope. I know someone disagree with the idea that she'll resist LF or will fall prey to him in some way but I just done see it. This series makes me despair at times, especially when it comes to the Starks, and then I just remind myself that Martin calls them the heroes of the series. With that and Jojen's comments that the wolves will return, I always feel better afterwards. :)

I really do think that her time as Alayne is a growth period for Sansa rather than her losing herself. Really, tze's amazing post just highlights for me that Sansa is still very close to her roots, even if she's temporarily living under an assumed name.

I'm glad it's made you more hopeful. Me too actually. ;) Someone mentioned on here that Sansa and Arya are on similar parallels. I also happened to mention something about this today in another thread which I'll post here too as it relates how I hope they will react to their respective moral crises in the future -

Sansa is on the verge of a moral precipice as to how she will treat Sweetrobin in the future. Arya has a very similar character arc too. She is on a moral precipice as well, both girls are in danger of losing their Stark identities, both girls are under the influence of morally corrupting mentors, both girls are being taught how to lie, but I see that they also both have little indicators that they will ultimately remember who they are and turn away from the dark side. Arya has kept needle and has her wolf dreams for instance and Sansa the three things I already mentioned.

As for Tze's post about Jon and Sansa, I have read it before and go back to it from time to time. It is an amazing read!

I agree about both Arya and Sansa. I don't see Arya's time as no one or Sansa's time as Alayne as leading them to a dark side or turning away from who they are. More, that being no one and Alayne is giving them a chance to grow in a way that they could not if they remained Lady Sansa or Lady Arya throughout the series, if that makes sense.

[Elba the Intoner]

Yeah I can see what you are saying. One of the only benefits I actually like from Arya's Faceless Men training is that it is forcing her to think things through and not be as impulsive as she was at first and Sansa as Alayne can be free of her her claim to Winterfell which she finds smothering at this point and also behave in ways that a proper lady would not get to behave. She was quite flirty with those three hedge knights that Petyr hired and I can't picture the old Sansa ever being that way.

[Kittykatknits]

Yeah I can see what you are saying. One of the only benefits I actually like from Arya's Faceless Men training is that it is forcing her to think things through and not be as impulsive as she was at first and Sansa as Alayne can be free of her her claim to Winterfell which she finds smothering at this point and also behave in ways that a proper lady would not get to behave. She was quite flirty with those three hedge knights that Petyr hired and I can't picture the old Sansa ever being that way.

Yeah, I agree. I know lots of people think Arya is ultimately going to go on to be an assassin but I kinda think her time with the FM is more than that. She's learning how to read people, assume identities, think things through as you say. It's all skills for spying and espionage. One of my dream endings is for the two Stark sisters to team up and rule WF and the North together, they'd have many complimentary skills that would make a great combination. Now that I've said it aloud, Martin will make sure it doesn't happen. :(

[otherbeef]

at the end of the day i just dont see how Sansa could go through everything she went through and put her absolute trust in anybody, especially someone she knows for a fact is a liar/manipulator like LF

[direwolf_of_white_fangs]

So far the relationship is mutually beneficial. I think there's more to this than LF's petty schemes.

And in the end, I suspect, we will be asking who in fact is buying who's BS.

LAdy Sansa might surprise us all in the end.

[direwolf_of_white_fangs]

The fact they are opposites would only add to the irony: LF's scheming and plotting ways and Sansa's witty innocence?

[Light a wight tonight]

I know we're not supposed to comment on the relationship, but that's sort of foreground to whether Sansa's going to buy into LF's BS.

First, Sansa's a Cat proxy, actually at the age Catelyn was when LF was at Riverrun, and LF wants to show "Cat" what a clever guy he is. Second, Sansa's a Stark, and LF's line about a Stark with a brain being like a donkey with a spinning wheel indicates that he has no respect for her intellect. He'll run his mouth and not expect her to analyze what he's saying.

She has always distrusted him, since their first meeting, and his killing Dontos removed all doubt as to his character. She may be learning the dirty side of Westerosi politics from him but she'll never be on his team. Now that they have come down from the Eyrie she's not isolated and can start building her own network, and I'm convinced she'll be bringing him down when the time is ripe.

(An aside: the Disney versions of stories are not canon. Book Mary Poppins is quite different from Show Mary Poppins. Same for Doctor Doolittle.)

[MotherAnduin]

In addition to the point made by a poster about Sansa not questioning Littlefinger about what Lysa said, Sansa also thinks that there are things that Littlefinger hides from her. She is aware that Littlefinger is playing at something. She just has not figured it out yet.

She knew better than to ask what sort of tales. If Petyr had wanted her to know, he would have told her.

The last chapter ended when Littlefinger spelt out his plan to Sansa but we do not know what Sansa thinks of it nor do we know her reaction. But we do know that she did not react out of her lady character as Littlefinger asked for another kiss.

[Victor227]

Creating lies and masks seems to be the big theme of Sansa and Petyr's story arc at the Eyrie, and it seems like she's going through something similar to him. After the duel, and the night with Lysa, and being expelled from Riverrun still grievously wounded, I believe he 'created' Littlefinger and took on that role for strength, just like Sansa took on the role of Alayne. There's even a parallel in memory alteration, if you look at how Sansa believes and remembers that Sandor kissed her during the battle on the Blackwater, when he did no such thing, and Littlefinger seems convinced that it was Catelyn that feverish night instead of Lysa.

For all his ruthless actions, I think there's a dissociation between Lord Littlefinger and Petyr Baelish, and that's where his strength is. He's playing a part to whatever end or goal he has in mind, and can separate himself from his actions and their consequences. His talk of games and players and pieces is all about dehumanizing his victims, and his focus on Sansa and Catelyn is about trying to re-live and feel those high ideals that drove him as Petyr, but from a position of power this time rather than weakness. I mean really, he's spurred on events that have cost thousands and thousands of people their lives, and he did so without any of the shields like 'duty' that people tend to hide behind to cope with committing horrible acts.

I do subscribe to the theory that Sansa's his weakness, protoge, and love-interest all rolled up into one. His 'un-fatherly' feelings for her directly contradict his lies and masks, and indeed all of his own advice to her. Those kisses are the actions of the boy-Petyr he abandoned, while in the meantime as Littlefinger he's trying to get her to transform herself the way he did, drag her down to his level and show her just how easy and seductive it can be to hide away from who you are.

[Newstar]

Eadoin asked me in another thread recently where I thought Littlefinger and Sansa would wind up, but the topic in that thread was different, so I'll answer here:

I know--as I think we all know--that somehow, Sansa is going to somehow be freed of Littlefinger's control and that Sansa will either directly or indirectly cause Littlefinger's downfall. This seems pretty straightforward. The problem is that I just don't see how she gets from her current situation (Point A) to that endgame, where she's forever free of Littlefinger and can pursue her own agenda or Point B, because from where I stand, Point A is very grim. There are glimmers of hope in her last Alayne POV suggesting that Littlefinger has not succeeded in completely obliterating Sansa Stark and replacing her with Alayne: the ghost wolf, the persistent memory of the unkiss, Sansa blurting out "Jon Snow," etc. However, there are also disturbing signs that Sansa is increasingly attached to Littlefinger and his way of doing things, that she has largely discarded her former concerns or reservations about Littlefinger, and that she is beginning to sign on to Littlefinger's concern with political advantage above all else and his corresponding callous disregard for human life. As another poster put it (Elba the Intoner, I think), she's on the moral precipice, looking down into the abyss.

What's going to shake her out of it? What can shake her out of it? It took Ned's execution for Sansa to realize that Joffrey was a total scumbag. I have to think it will take something just as drastic or even more drastic to convince her that Littlefinger is not her protector and must be stopped at all costs. I tend to think Sweetrobin dying and Sansa realizing Littlefinger deliberately caused his death would do the trick, but I dunno: if she was able to rationalize or ignore all the other stuff she knows Littlefinger has done, and if she could tell herself that the boy was in pain and always suffering, the boy was going to die anyway, and it really was a kindness after all, etc. etc., she might actually be able to overlook it.

Creating lies and masks seems to be the big theme of Sansa and Petyr's story arc at the Eyrie, and it seems like she's going through something similar to him. After the duel, and the night with Lysa, and being expelled from Riverrun still grievously wounded, I believe he 'created' Littlefinger and took on that role for strength, just like Sansa took on the role of Alayne. There's even a parallel in memory alteration, if you look at how Sansa believes and remembers that Sandor kissed her during the battle on the Blackwater, when he did no such thing, and Littlefinger seems convinced that it was Catelyn that feverish night instead of Lysa.

Yes, I did notice the parallel of Littlefinger genuinely fooling himself into thinking Lysa was Cat, and Sansa fooling herself into thinking that the Hound kissed her. I wonder if GRRM is going to do more with that.

On the masks issue: the interesting thing is that Littlefinger dropped his mask the first day he met Sansa, when he tells Sansa "You have her hair," reaches out and strokes a lock of her hair (very improper/intimate for a stranger), brushes her cheek with his fingers (also inappropriate), and then "quite abruptly" turns and walks away. Littlefinger is usually so polished and smooth, even with his mortal enemies, but not here.

I do subscribe to the theory that Sansa's his weakness, protoge, and love-interest all rolled up into one. His 'un-fatherly' feelings for her directly contradict his lies and masks, and indeed all of his own advice to her.

I think Littlefinger is even confused himself as to what he wants from Sansa. Is she his pupil or his puppet? His daughter or his future lover/wife? He seems to like the daddy roleplay and the idea that Sansa is the daughter he and Cat might have had. However, he also has decidedly unfatherly feelings for her. In a way, it makes sense. I get the feeling that Littlefinger has deliberately distanced himself from others emotionally after the humiliation and catastrophe with Cat, so when he does have the opportunity for even a semblance of real closeness with somebody (achieved by trapping her at close quarters, of course, but still), he doesn't know what he wants most: a child, a protege, a lover, just an attractive pawn, or maybe all of these in a way. He tells her all about the planned marriage to Harry the Heir (pawn/protege) while kissing her wrist (lover) and pulling her on to his lap (child).

So what does this mean for Littlefinger and Sansa? It may be that just as with Lysa, his confusion over Sansa will lead him into a dangerous stuation (someone watching him make out with his "daughter" or similar). Or maybe Sansa decides to use Littlefinger's infatuation with her against him. I really have trouble seeing Sansa as some kind of deliberate femme fatale or seductress, but on the other hand, she plied Sweetrobin with the promise of kisses in AFFC, so who knows?

[Daphne23]

The question mark is, what will be Sansa's motivation to finally turn on Baelish? I have a feeling that it will have something to do with Baelish making a move or planning to make a move against one of her brothers. A lot of Baelish's planning depends on Sansa being the heiress to Winterfell. If Rickon is revealed and/or Robb's will is made public regarding Jon, Baelish loses a critical power piece because Sansa's political value will have been diminished. But if Baelish tries to convince Alayne that he just has to take action against Rickon and/or Jon, I can definitely see that being Sansa's turning point. I can also see Sansa working to secure an alliance with other Vale lords more or less behind Baelish's back, so that when he does fall, the Starks and the Vale are still on good terms.

I like this idea, and tying in with tze's wonderful post on Sansa and Jon (which I've now read for the third time) I would predict that the brother might be Jon, simply because I can imagine Petyr believing that Sansa cares little for Jon and could be convinced to make a move against him, whereas he might not believe this so easily with regards to one of her 'true' brothers like Rickon. (Depending on how deeply his Cat delusion runs, he may subconsciously associate Cat's resentment of Jon - which he could have guessed at if not witnessed at first hand - with Sansa, which would strengthen his conviction that he can unproblematically use Sansa against Jon even further.) But as tze shows, this would not be the case; Sansa's affection for Jon has, if anything, deepened and strengthened, and I think this could be the turning point that Newstar identifies the need for that will snap her out of her quasi-dependence on Littlefinger.

[Nerolunar]

I think she is taking on Alayne, maybe to protect her real persona? but when its the right moment, Sansa might go up again, and break free of Alayne, and eventually do something against Petyr/Littlefinger. I also think she may have split up Littlefinger and Petyr into 2 Person´s in her mind... Just my thoughts :)

edit: She might even be schitzophrenic!

[Theda Baratheon]

Great thread; I also view Arya's time with the FM as a time to learn the ways of subtlety and reading people and I think its similar with Sansa's time with LF. I'd love to see her forging her own alliances whilst LF is oblivious.

[LadyMary]

This came up in another thread, and I began to think about it some more. This isn't meant to be a general discussion on their relationship, but rather to focus on more specific questions: Exactly how much control does Littlefinger have over Sansa? And is she buying his BS?

I am a big Sansa fan, so you could say that this topic concerns me. I want her as far away from him as she can be. I appreciate Littlefinger as a villain, but I dont want him to "win" in any way, and I'm hoping that Sansa will be his downfall. I think Sansa is resourceful, intelligent, and empathetic. But she is also flawed and human, and certainly in the beginning of the story she showed that she had the tendency to want to see the best in people. Is the story of Joffrey repeating itself with Littlefinger? I'd hope not.

It is worth noting that she has already lied to him - "lies and arbor gold". She also seems uncomfortable with his affections, as her responses to him are described as "dutiful" more than once, iirc.

In her last chapter in Feast, Sansa thinks to herself "That day was done, and so was Sansa." She seems to be adopting the Alayne persona. However, as Elba the Intoner noted in another thread, she is referred to as Sansa again while thinking of how the wind sounded like wolves.

Sansa has identified two aspects of Petyr Baelish: Littlefinger and Petyr. As Newstar pointed out, in her last chapter in Feast she thinks of him almost exclusively as Petyr, who she has labeled her protector. Is this a sign that she is becoming more under his influence? She also seems to value his opinion, particularly in that last Feast chapter, and wishes he was there with her to help with Sweetrobin. Not to mention that she thinks of him admiringly - Nothing frightened Petyr Baelish.

Sansa is a subtly-written character and so I'd appreciate for you all to possibly point out things I've missed and to potentially go into more depth. Is Sansa "buying it"? And additionally, how much control do you think Littlefinger has over Sansa?

I think Sansa is a survivor, in a different way than her sister is a survivor. She survives by playing along, keeping her mouth shut and watching - to see that what people say is not what they really mean. She now knows that a lot of what Petyr / Littlefinger did in Kings Landing and including her "rescue", was based on lies. He is now schooling her in lies. She is willing to adopt the persona of Alayne because it will protect her from capture and... I think she's relieved to have a break from the burdens of Ladyhood and being married into a family she loathes and fears, at least for a short time.

I think Sansa is grateful that Petyr saved her from the Lannisters, but she now knows that because she fled, she is suspected of Joffrey's murder and it was Littlefinger who made her a conspirator in the murder plot, even if she didn't know it at the time. So she is essentially Petyr's "ward" but Littlefinger has made her as much a prisoner of her circumstances just as she was in Kings Landing. That's why she has been forced to allow her foster father to kiss her in an unfatherly way, because pissing off Littlefinger would be extremely dangerous for her.

So, yes, she "buys it" because she's a survivor and she's learning the lessons that her foster father teaches her. She knows her limitations and Petyr's expectations and I think she's willing to go along in order save herself. She's willing to play the role because it's preferable to being murdered by the Lannisters.

However, she's still a Stark under it all and I don't think she'd go along with any attempt to murder Sweetrobin. Even if she doesn't like him, Robert Arryn is still her cousin and she's able to sympathize with what he's been through enough to put his bratty behavior in context. I think Sansa would out herself or conspire against Petyr, if it meant saving Sweetrobin's life. And because she knows Petyr's weaknesses - the desire for power and her, she could figure out a way to outsmart him.