Sansa and Littlefinger - Is She Buying It?

[Moon-Pale Maiden]

As Elba explained, I don't think this is a correct interpretation at all. Not to mention that we know that right after Arya escapes, Roose is also gone from Harrenhall, you know, killing Robb Stark and all. So would have been difficult to "lay low and be Roose Bolton's cupbearer". I also like how you're trying to compare 2 completely different situations.

I admit - perhaps I was hasty to compare the situations, since they are so complex in and of themselves. And I was wrong about Roose telling her she couldn't go, my mistake.

However, while I don't expect Sansa to go all 'Arya' and go around murdering guards and make some crazy escape by herself down a mountain, I think Sansa is bieng way too meek. She absolutely could stand up for herself in a way that would start to shift the balance of power from Petyr to herself. Sansa is much higher born than Petyr and has currently the best claim to Winterfell. That's why the Lannisters wanted her, and the Tyrells. For her "claim". She already knows this so why doesn't she use that advantage for herself and start calling some of the shots?

For example, if she didn't want to kiss Petyr, why does she do it? She isn't going to be thrown off the mountain or given to the Lannisters if she asserts herself and simply turns her head when he goes to kiss her, or maybe doesn't get that close to him in the first place. Sansa should realize that if LF took the time, expense, and risk to commit regicide and abduct Sansa, he's got to be expecting some huge personal payback. Sansa must be very valuable to him, because let's face it, LF doesn't do anything out of kindness. It's always for personal gain. He supposedly loved Cat and lied and manipulated her too. LF loves only LF. If Sansa could stop being so idealistic for a moment, she might understand that she does have personal power and can use it as leverage against Petyr. I get very frustrated by Sansa's resignation that she is a helpless victim. I hope Sansa eventually empowers herself to take charge of her own destiny. Look at what Alys Kartark did when she was manipulated for her claim. She fought back. And won.

[brashcandy]

However, while I don't expect Sansa to go all 'Arya' and go around murdering guards and make some crazy escape by herself down a mountain, I think Sansa is bieng way too meek. She absolutely could stand up for herself in a way that would start to shift the balance of power from Petyr to herself. Sansa is much higher born than Petyr and has currently the best claim to Winterfell. That's why the Lannisters wanted her, and the Tyrells. For her "claim". She already knows this so why doesn't she use that advantage for herself and start calling some of the shots?

Probably because she's wanted for regicide and imagines that all her remaining family is dead, except for a half brother in the NW. As for her claim to Winterfell, people have tried to exploit it, not to help empower her or give her any agency. This is why she finds some comfort in being Alayne Stone, because Alayne has no claim. Right now, Petyr really is the one holding the cards. He has the alliances, the money and the power to send Sansa back to KL if he wanted. He's also made sure to implicate her slyly in his crimes, with his "more blood on your hands". I know it's hard to understand, but Sansa was actually doing the best thing she could in those AFFC chapters, which is to lie low if she can't be sure whom she could trust. She entertains going to Bronze Yohn, but again, she can't be sure he wouldn't sell her out. It's a very dangerous situation she's in, and mindless action isn't going to help her.

For example, if she didn't want to kiss Petyr, why does she do it?

When she kisses Petyr on her own it is dutiful like a daughter should. It is LF who kisses her in wholly inappropriate ways. Recall the first time it happened was in the garden at the Eyrie, and after that she goes to Lysa to tell her she wants to be sent away. She's never able to reveal what she wants because Lysa goes off the deep-end, LF "rescues" her and her entrapment continues.

She isn't going to be thrown off the mountain or given to the Lannisters if she asserts herself and simply turns her head when he goes to kiss her, or maybe doesn't get that close to him in the first place.

Really? How is she to be so certain that Petyr won't send her back if she doesn't play along with his games for the time being - "lies and arbor gold". As much as the kisses are unpleasant, it's not so terrible as having to be back in KL under Cersei's power.

Sansa should realize that if LF took the time, expense, and risk to commit regicide and abduct Sansa, he's got to be expecting some huge personal payback. Sansa must be very valuable to him, because let's face it, LF doesn't do anything out of kindness. It's always for personal gain. He supposedly loved Cat and lied and manipulated her too. LF loves only LF. If Sansa could stop being so idealistic for a moment, she might understand that she does have personal power and can use it as leverage against Petyr. I get very frustrated by Sansa's resignation that she is a helpless victim. I hope Sansa eventually empowers herself to take charge of her own destiny. Look at what Alys Kartark did when she was manipulated for her claim. She fought back. And won.

But Sansa isn't being idealistic or a helpless victim at all. She understands the gravity of the situation she's in, and is working within those limitations. During AFFC, that meant - unfortunately- having to work with LF. And most importantly, in the meantime, she's learning and growing. She's able to realise the tricks LF plays on Nestor Royce and the Lords Declarant; she was in charge of running the Eyrie household in his absence, and she's developing a friendship with Mya Stone and Lothor Brune that may be of importance later on. This is to say nothing of her ability to handle SR, and her already established skills at diplomacy. The time for Sansa to truly act to undermine LF or achieve some autonomy for herself will be in TWOW. We can't simply take an example like Alys Karstark and say this is how Sansa should behave. She can't get on a dying horse and cross the Vale mountains with wild clans all around who would rape and murder her. There was no way for Sansa to fight back in KL against the Lannisters, but there might be openings now in the Vale to prevent the same from happening.

[Tagganaro]

However, while I don't expect Sansa to go all 'Arya' and go around murdering guards and make some crazy escape by herself down a mountain, I think Sansa is bieng way too meek. She absolutely could stand up for herself in a way that would start to shift the balance of power from Petyr to herself. Sansa is much higher born than Petyr and has currently the best claim to Winterfell. That's why the Lannisters wanted her, and the Tyrells. For her "claim". She already knows this so why doesn't she use that advantage for herself and start calling some of the shots?

Brash already has this covered, but I had to respond as well. This is just wrong. As Brash said, Sansa is wanted Westeros-wide for murder and regicide. She has no power remaining until she gets to some loyal Northmen with an army. She has no way of knowing if the Vale is loyal to her (although I believe they are and will be when the time comes). Sansa's very high-birth status is simply and merely a death sentence for her at the moment. She has no possible way of shifting the power here, and LF and her both damn well know that.

For example, if she didn't want to kiss Petyr, why does she do it? She isn't going to be thrown off the mountain or given to the Lannisters if she asserts herself and simply turns her head when he goes to kiss her, or maybe doesn't get that close to him in the first place. Sansa should realize that if LF took the time, expense, and risk to commit regicide and abduct Sansa, he's got to be expecting some huge personal payback. Sansa must be very valuable to him, because let's face it, LF doesn't do anything out of kindness. It's always for personal gain. He supposedly loved Cat and lied and manipulated her too. LF loves only LF. If Sansa could stop being so idealistic for a moment, she might understand that she does have personal power and can use it as leverage against Petyr. I get very frustrated by Sansa's resignation that she is a helpless victim. I hope Sansa eventually empowers herself to take charge of her own destiny. Look at what Alys Kartark did when she was manipulated for her claim. She fought back. And won.

You're basically describing what she does when you say she should have turned her head. She goes along with it a little bit, but she's not making out with him or doing any of the stuff he wants her to do (which is mainly sex I'm guessing). She's kissing him dutifully as a daughter would her father, what her disguise is supposed to be.

And you contradict your point a little bit by describing LF being out only for himself (which is true). If that's the case, then what personal power does Sansa have? If she's not going to be cooperative, why the hell is LF even going to keep her around, especially when she knows his deep dark secrets? She'll be dead quicker than Lysa the second she becomes useless to LF.

And again, with comparing situations that can't be compared at all with Alys and Sansa. Sansa is locked up in the Vale, she has no way of leaving that's apparent at all. She was locked up in that crazy high Eyrie tower that requires mule service to get down for her whole time. How is she supposed to escape and get to Jon? By teleporting? Alys is leaving from the place she grew up in and traversing an area she knows well enough to get around in. There is no comparison, as Alys's only way of "fighting back" was running to the Wall, and hoping Jon was cool.

Snip

Damn like button missing..

[Lyanna Stark]

Look at what Alys Kartark did when she was manipulated for her claim. She fought back. And won.

Well no, not quite. She barely escaped to the Wall where only Jon Snow's willingness to assist her mostly in spite of being Nights Watch and not actually taking sides, but he does anyway. So using Alys Karstark as an equivalent is not really correct. Plus Alys is not wanted for regicide either, so there is that.

And what brashcandy and Tagganaro already posted.

"Sansa should have escaped from the Vale" claims are about as realistic as the "Sansa should have grabbed a sword and assassinated Joffrey in Kings Landing" sort of claims, I think. There is just no realistic way she could have, given the circumstances and her location.

[juanml82]

Well, she could have thrown Joffrey from the battlements if the Hound wasn't around, but that would have resulted in an slow and painful dead for her.

Regarding LF kissing her... she's what? 13, 14? I don't think we can expect such a young girl to sucesfully manage what accounts to sexual harrasment. Specially someone who wasn't really involved in the Westerosi version of the dating game

[LadyMary]

brashcandy, I think the funny thing is that we're on agreement that Sansa is going to snap out of this. :D I just think the situation is currently much more grim than many make it out to be. I just don't see how she gets from where I think she is at the end of AFFC (on the moral precipice, increasingly identifying with Littlefinger and his goals, established pattern of agreeing to questionable actions at Littlefinger's behest) to where she seems to be going (causing Littlefinger's downfall and accomplishing whatever it is that GRRM has been grooming her to accomplish with all this political training). Mind you, I also don't understand how Arya is going to peace out from the Faceless Men after all their supersecret training with no adverse consequences, but this seems to be a foregone conclusion as well.

I have to say that I don't think Sansa is "identifying" with Littlefinger. I think she is acquiescing to Littlefinger. There is a difference. I do think Sansa has become a more morally grey character, than the innocent and naive girl that she was back in Winterfell, but how could she not be? Her life has been in the hands of enemies who would use her as a pawn, and now is in the hands of a man who will use her as a pawn and has set her up as an accomplice to various crimes that keep her bound to him for her very protection.

Sansa has no agency. Either she would die an untimely and unjustified death accused of murders she didn't commit, or she acquiesced to the man who is her only protection, even knowing what Petyr is and is capable of.

The fact that she has to try to convince herself to accept it, is proof to me that she is not a sociopath like Littlefinger. She feels guilt for lying about Marillion - even though he was an accomplice to Lysa's attempt to murder her, but not enough to tell the damning truth and risk being shipped back to Kings Landing for crimes she didn't commit. She knows better how to be honorable, but she also knows that her father died because of his honor, and Robb and her mother died for Robb's honor. Maybe she's figured out that she can't be honorable when surrounded by those who have no honor and if she wants to survive, she'll have to figure out a way to hold onto her honor as much as possible when surrounded by those who have none, by making the least bad decision that doesn't cost her her life for something she didn't do.

My take on Sansa's thoughts about giving drugs to Sweetrobin was that there were too many risks that he wouldn't make it down the mountain without something to keep him from having a fit. He had to get down the mountain, and was refusing to do so and she had to beg, flatter, bribe and sedate him to get him to make the trip. It was risky to give him the drug, but the alternative could have been Robert's death on the mountain or refusal to leave the Eyrie which would have meant death from starvation.

I don't think drugging the kid was a great option, but it probably was the lesser of two evils given the circumstances.

What other choices did Sansa/Alayne have at that moment, since Petyr wasn't there to call the shots and she was left in charge of closing up the castle and safely transporting Robin down the mountain on her own?

[Naathi Prince]

Yea what is Sansa supposed to do about besides what she does, which is not reciprocate. A bad reaction and Petyr might turn on her.

[Light a wight tonight]

I just have to add this one point about the evil genious of Littlefinger (then I'll shut up, I promise): By giving Sansa the alter ego of Alayne, he removes Sansa's responsibilities for Alayne's actions. Sansa is beholden to Sansa's experience and conscience. Alayne is Littlefinger's creation, and belongs only to littlefinger. I believe, psychologically, that it will be very easy for Sansa to morph completely and totally into Alayne, who in time, will do things that Sansa would never do because Alayne has the freedom from the same moral consequences. Such as "A lie is not wrong if it's kindly meant", ect.

Another way to look at "Alayne" is that she's a mask that not only deceives the people of the Vale but also Littlefinger. Sansa can use the mask to make LF think he controls her while remaining her own person. She's actually very tough, standing up to Joffrey ("Maybe my brother will bring me your head") even knowing she will be punished. There are no wimpy Starks.

[Moon-Pale Maiden]

For Sansa's sake, I do hope she wakes up in time before serious damage is done to herself and/or to Sweetrobin. I think we can all agree that spending too much time with Petyr Baelish is detrimental to Sansa's emotional wellbeing. Hats off to Mr. Martin for writing such a nuanced character. Its been really interesting to see how the same three chapters can be interpreted so conclusively different for each reader. At this point, it's just the gruelling wait until the next book to see if Sansa becomes Littlefinger's little minion, or if she totally Starks out and beats him at his own game.

[Éadaoin]

Great posts, Tagganaro, brashcandy and Lyanna Stark. You said it better than I could. :)

And great responses from others, too, this has been a really awesome thread.

[Lyanna Stark]

For Sansa's sake, I do hope she wakes up in time before serious damage is done to herself and/or to Sweetrobin. I think we can all agree that spending too much time with Petyr Baelish is detrimental to Sansa's emotional wellbeing.

Oh absolutely. The incest tinged relationship she has with Littlefinger is all sorts of creepy. If you are interested in more Sansa analysis, there are the Pawn to Player threads, which have links back to the original rereads dealing with the AFFC chapters and an in-depth analysis of Sansa's reaction to LF in a larger perspective. It really hammers home just how Wrong Littlefinger is, and how his treatment of Sansa has connotations of how RL abusers and sexual predators "prep" their victims.

For instance, LF is careful to implicate Sansa in Marillion's death with saying that she has "blood on her hands" even if LF orchestrated the whole thing. By making her an accomplice and "co-guilty" with him, he's trapping her further and further in his webs.

[LadyMary]

Another way to look at "Alayne" is that she's a mask that not only deceives the people of the Vale but also Littlefinger. Sansa can use the mask to make LF think he controls her while remaining her own person. She's actually very tough, standing up to Joffrey ("Maybe my brother will bring me your head") even knowing she will be punished. There are no wimpy Starks.

I think this is an interesting perspective. Alayna is like a suit of armor that protects Sansa not just from those who might discover her secret, but even from Littlefinger. He believes her acquiescence to play Alayne is acceptance of his plot but it helps her to shield her true self by letting Petyr think she accepts the plot that he has put foreward. I still think that Sansa will be Petyr's downfall because she is his biggest weakness and he will take her acquiescence for granted.

[Vhageraxion]

Wouldn't it be lovely if StoneHeart dealt some serious justice to LF (preferably without allowing him to yell "SWORD") for all the things he has done to her family? Especially if she heard about him harassing Sansa. I wouldn't like Sansa to be there, though, just to never see that slimy A-hole again.

Anyways, on-topic:

I think I'm pretty much on to LF (though of course no one truly is until we get a POV from him, which is not going to happen), as I see it there are two things that make him tick:

1. Cleverly creating chaos and profiting from it (think causing a war and eventually scooping up a High Lordship)

2. Obsessive love for Cat/Sansa.

Now, I'm convinced that Sansa will outsmart LF at some point. She could either do this through

1. Taking advantage of motive 1, leading LF to reach beyond what he grasps, with San somehow coming out of the winner. This, however would be difficult, as LF has proven to be a very intelligent man, and, in spite of everything she's been through and all the things she's learned Sansa is still a fifteen-year old girl.

2. Taking advantage of motive 2. This, I think, For example if the marries Harry the Heir and wins the Lords of the Vale, then somehow shows LF's creepy love for her to the world. He'll be in trouble, and she'll be the Lady of the Vale and, if things play out right in the North (which I'm sure we all hope they will), kin to the Lord of the North.

[Wouter]

Great posts, Tagganaro, brashcandy and Lyanna Stark. You said it better than I could. :)

And great responses from others, too, this has been a really awesome thread.

Seconded. One more thing I want to note is that Arya, for all her courage and agency, also doesn't see fit to leave the Faceless Men at this time, even though they're just as bad an influence on Arya as LF is on Sansa.

[Not a kneeler]

Reading the lines "Maester Coleman cares only for the boy, though Father and I have larger concerns" gave me cold chills when i read it. All along Sansa has watched and been silent while Ser Dontos was murdeered, when Lysa was murdered, and when Marrion died. Granted, there were plenty of reasons why Sansa could say nothing on those occaisions. Still, it seems her moral center has been erroded by everythiing that has happened. She is still sweet and kind, She is intelligent, but she is more passive than Arya, and while I believe thaat Arya is playing the Faceless Men until she has the skills to come back and wreck vengence on the people on her list, I think Sansa is more in danger from Petyr Baelish than some people realize.

Petyr has master skills as a manipulator. Sansa has been in a hostage situration in Kings Landing with no more "say" in her sitaurion than a common prisoner. At the least after the purple weddng she has PTSD. Her mind is in a delicate state. Then the incident with Lysa, another shock. The poor girl! She doesn't have the ferocity of Ayra who fights back. Instead Sansa holds on. But she has less to hold on to because Petyr and circumstance have stolen her identity. She is no longer Sansa Stark of Winterfell, but Alayne the bastard with no name or place except with Petyr. Maybe Petyr has never studied brainwashing, but he "gets" it. It's right up his alley, and he has taken her one tiny notch at a time away from her values as a Stark and daughter of Eddard and closer to the values he holds. What are they, one may ask? Self, first and foremost. Is she there yet?, Not in my mind, not even close, but closer every day.

I fear for her.

[Newstar]

It really hammers home just how Wrong Littlefinger is, and how his treatment of Sansa has connotations of how RL abusers and sexual predators "prep" their victims.

Absolutely. It's textbook "grooming," enough so that it almost seems like GRRM researched this type of behaviour before writing the books.

Alayne is like a suit of armor that protects Sansa not just from those who might discover her secret, but even from Littlefinger.

The problem with the persona of "Alayne" is that it was something created by Littlefinger (deliberately, I think) to make Sansa lower her defences. By setting up this fictional father/daughter relationship and telling Sansa that she has to be his "daughter" 24/7, he's putting her in a mindset of a "daughter": touching (even sexualized touching) is acceptable under the pose of "fatherly" affection, and loyalty, obedience, and trust flow naturally from this father/daughter relationship. It's designed to create this false bond and false obligations flowing therefrom (dutiful kisses, obedience, etc.), which Littlefinger can exploit to get various things from her (cooperation, silence, French kisses).

Ever since AGOT, Sansa may not have had much in the way of physical protection (and her protectors often represented threats themselves at various points: the Hound holding a knife to her throat, the threat of rape from Tyrion, etc.), but she always had her psychological protection: her courtesy armour. The courtesy armour helped her create a mental space between the identified enemy and herself: that "last inch" of psychological freedom, if not physical freedom.

Unfortunately, Littlefinger, being a black belt in manipulation, has hit upon the perfect method of wresting that psychological freedom from her and lowering her psychological defenses: not only playing the role of rescuer but also imposing this fake father/daughter relationship on her to force her to act in a way (dutiful, obedient, "loving," and diligently absorbing his "lessons") that she wouldn't otherwise act with him. He has hacked her courtesy armour. How do we know this? Because we see in Alayne's last POV her thinking as Littlefinger thinks, thinking of Littlefinger as brave, parroting Littlefinger's words, etc. etc. With the Lannisters, she spouted all this crap about loving Joffrey, her duty being to her husband, etc. etc., but she never believed any of it. (The smarter Lannisters also rolled their eyes a lot at her protestations of love for Joffrey and other matters without trying to change her mind or brainwash her into thinking that Joffrey was the bestest or what have you.) With Petyr, though, to some extent, she does seem to believe it. This leads her not only to view Littlefinger in a positive light and put up with his increasingly creepy attentions, but also to absorb his value system and view other people the way he sees them (as inconvenient obstacles or as pawns rather than human beings). "Alayne" seems to have a certain cool, scientific detachment towards others that Sansa does not, but Sansa still shows through at points ("warming" to Myranda despite Littlefinger's warning about her).

As many have pointed out, while "Alayne" is problematic for this reason--it's an artificial persona Littlefinger can use to exploit her and groom her--there are glimmers of hope that Sansa is actually taking strength from "Alayne" as well: she seems "bastard brave," smarter, more perceptive, and tougher. She seems less conscious of class distinctions as well. So just as there is a lot to worry about when it comes to "Alayne," there are hints that she'll be able to use "Alayne" against Petyr as well, and that Littlefinger may be eaten alive by the very thing he created.

[mushroomshirt]

Reading the lines "Maester Coleman cares only for the boy, though Father and I have larger concerns" gave me cold chills when i read it.

Great quote. I don't have much more to say than this.

Am I the only one who likes morally gray Sansa? I find Cersei's (totally bad) and Sam's (totally good) POVs the least interesting.

If Sansa is going to play the game of thrones, she could do a lot worse than apprenticing herself to LF (hell, she could just listen to Ned!)

[juanml82]

I'd also like a morally gray Sansa - who helps the North and calls the shot instead of blindly following LF